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Speciesism, Veganism Type 1 Diabetes

Bluemarine Josephine

Well-Known Member
Messages
259
Location
Northampton
Type of diabetes
Type 1
Treatment type
Insulin
Hello my wonderful friends! I hope that you are all very well and that your bg levels are very “on point!”
I very much wish to request your opinions regarding the following matter. Please allow me to elaborate a little in order to get to my point.

As some of you might have read from my previous posts, about 4-5 months ago I attended the DAFNE course. Following the DAFNE rules, I did not bolus for protein and/or fat. I also did not bolus for the protein/fat content in other carbohydrate foods like milk or yogurt. (I did bolus for the carbs, just not for their protein and/or fat content).

This confused my ratios completely.
Every time I had a meal that did not consist of any animal protein (for example, I had 2 oranges, 1 banana, mixed salad and rye bread) and bolused accordingly for it, my 1:1 ratio was working like a dream! If even the slightest animal product was in my meal, (like 30 grams of cheese) the ratios changed…

So, in order to avoid the confusion, about a month ago, I decided to eliminate animal products from certain meals, like breakfast and dinner. I also quit completely milk, yogurts, cheese, eggs, any kind of cream (single and double, mayonnaise). I only allowed 80-90 grams of meat/fish and salads for lunch.

I thought, let’s try to figure out the ratios without the animal products first, and then I will introduce them gradually and record what happens.

Here is the interesting part.

After I started this “diet” (so to speak), within about 10 days, I started having hypoglycemic episodes morning, afternoon, evening and during the night… I went from basal test to basal test almost every second day. Eventually, I had to reduce my overall Levemir dosage from 22 units down to 16 units.

My diet consists of 90-120 grams of carbs per day, coming from fruits, vegetables and rye bread. I am completely unaware, at the moment, what else I could eat because I had never experimented with a diet that has no animal products in the past... but, I am very tempted to investigate into the matter now!

I am not advocating a high carbs – low protein diet, in any way. However, I must admit how wonderfully my insulin works without any animal products… everything has become so effortless and predictable (if this can be said about Type 1 diabetes…)

Some days ago, I watched the following video.
It has disturbing images between minutes 14:30 to 19:00 so, if you wish, please skip them.
However, there are some interesting points after minute 19:00.


I was in shock!!
I felt that, now that I know, I cannot keep doing this (engaging into speciesism) and still live with myself!

I am writing this post now and my 10 year old Westie, Charlie, (some of you may know him from my previous posts and you know that I love him terribly much!) is sleeping on my lap and I am looking at him and I am thinking “Am I so cruel and in-sensitive and in-different… I would never, ever, ever, EVER harm/eat/skin Charlie why do I do it to other creatures? And the fact, that others do it for me and I just buy the products at Tesco, doesn’t make me less of an associate in this crime!”

So, after all this story, here is the set of questions:
How do you feel about veganism? (both regarding ethical and nutritional reasons.)
Can a Type 1 diabetic become vegan? Is it safe for a Type 1 diabetic to become vegan?
Your thoughts, opinions and suggestions are very welcomed and highly valued, always.

I wish you the most beautiful day ahead and thank you in advance for your replies!!

Regards
Josephine.
 
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My feeling is that whatever you eat, something is going to die to get it to your plate. Agriculture in particular kills many small mammals, reptiles, etc. during mechanical harvesting. I don't think any person on earth can claim to have perfectly clean hands. JMHO.
 
Hi,

My mum was a vegetarian for about 30 years..? In fact, for a fair period of it full on vegan once us kids had all left home. Her choice was ehthical..
My dad on the other hand was a carnivore. Opposite ends of the spectrum. Both respecting eachothers views. (Lol, though not fully understanding them.)
When my dad became ill. I noticed mum turned to the "dark side" starting with bacon.. By this time she was his full time carer. (An eliment of practicality on the "food prep" front?) Funny enough. I was in a band with a vegetarian guitarist & bacon turned him too..

My feeling on ethical choice is personal. I have heard stories of dog owners imposing vegitarian diets on dogs & kids...
But by the same standard. I feel a family member should not have to suffer ridicule for their ethical diatary choice either..

Now I have a dog. His diet is protein. Actually white meat, his guts get dodgy on the red..
Looking at some of the dog food "recipes" on the label is insane.. I read one a while back that said "pasta & Ragoo".. I don't even use biscuit mixer.. Fair enough.
You might think being a diabetic might have some influence? But how many dogs do you know can cook Italian..

In summary. (& trying not to waffle too much Darwin.) Our evolution is down to protein... Man's brain has evolved to this point (all that we have achieved so far.) So thanks to meat, all our thoughts, dreams, imaginations & even the ethical decision making, like "ironically" becoming a vegan...

Just to add; my respect to ethical choice!
 
Veganism is entirely up to you. It's not something I subscribe to, but there are plenty of T1s out there who do it. If you are happy with that approach to eating then go ahead.
 

Now your moving into "Jainism" territory just to grow spinach...

But in fairness. I do believe in the peace of mind & wellbeing of any livestock.. Before it goes on my plate!
 
@Bluemarine Josephine ... I hate tagging people but @Enclave might be one of the best to ask. Sorry mate .... you simply sprung to mind

It might be a stretch to go quite that far, but ethics and health can be intertwined so I understand. Good luck with your decisions and the advice you might receive

Mike from Melbourne
 
Hi @Bluemarine Josephine I have recently adopted a plant only diet after 40 years of lacto-ovo-vegetarianism. I am a T2 on oral meds so cannot comment on insulin dosage, but I would imagine that vegan foods would be approached as other foods as they also contain carbs. There was a veggie member here a while back called @Heathenlass who was T1 and would bolus for pulses etc I think. Perhaps you could attempt to PM her.

The Vegan Society is a good resource and can put you in touch with others in you area if you are in the UK

https://www.vegansociety.com/resources/local-and-group-contacts

Perhaps you could email the Society directly and ask if they have any specific info for T1s. Good luck x
 
I'm a lapsing vegetarian (every now and then I eat meat), toyed with vegan diet, my son's friend us a rawetarian (only eats uncooked fruit and veg) and that diet is so hard but he looks great on it.
I'm with @Jaylee on the meat issue, no meat, tiny brains and bodies.
If you look at China, Japan etc where diet used to be mainly fish but they are now eating more meat and are growing taller, their skin is lighter all relatively quickly within a few generations.
I grew up in a very rural area, we knew where our food came from as it was probably mooing or baaing in a nearby field a few weeks before it was on our plates.
My mum had a saying hunger's a good kitchen, if you are starving proper third world starvation do you give a toot what you are eating. I watched a programme on hunger a mother was feeding her children, boiled newspaper, it looked like porridge, she said it stopped that hollow feeling, can you imagine having to do that.
Here we are pondering giving up food, when there are babies with nothing.
On the dog subject, dog isn't a good meat, animals that eat meat usually don't taste good, but it is cheap.

The problem I have with the meat industry in this country is the welfare ethics are so bad, but we fall for it, free range doesn't mean the animal was wandering about a field, it means they have access to daylight and outside space. 100.000 hens in a barn with a retractable roof where the hens can be on a perch or floor are considered free range.
We don't need to watch films of the slaughter process, we need to be seeing how the animal lived before that point if we concern ourselves more on that then the slaughter process would eventually be better.
 
mahola said:
Did anyone one watch "Kill it, Cook it, Eat it" when it was on the BBC? I think any meat eater should watch it to see where their food comes from. It started off with me thinking "awww cute pig/cow/lamb" To thinking "Mmmm dinner"

I'm a bad human.
Click to expand...

Nah.. It's just our hunter instinct from a bygone age.. The only "outlet" for this nowadays is the "Black Friday" sales.. You may wanna try "acting classes" & see how it works out as a tree...?

Seriously though. I've seen simalar browsing behaviour patterns in a supermarket, to monkeys picking fruit in the wild?
 
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Hi @Bluemarine Josephine .. I can so relate to how your feeling..but must add I am T2 no meds for this and a vegetarian .. The wife bounces from vegetarian to vegan ...
I think (without watching the video) you are getting caught in a moral dilemma.. little Charlie who is a good age may not be to impressed going vegetarian or vegan with you .. but it is possible. Charlie as most dogs would just not happy living in the wild as they (as you know) have evolved to be living in the comfort of our homes and waited on hand and foot )).
If you dig too deeply in to how food is produced it is almost impossible to eat without the food being touched by some kind of animal product. The soil that vegetables are grown in are often fertilised with a powder made from blood, fish and bone ..yuck ..bone china is made with ground bone in.. charcoal for water filters are often made from bone charcoal .. I won't go on .. but I could !!! Try not to get to bogged down in the minute details, enjoy exploring your new way of eating (If your going to stick with the vegan diet)
As a few have already said T1 and vegan diets are possible, here is an interview you may find interesting A Diabetic Vegan: An Interview With Adrian Kiger
Not everyone is cut out to be veggie or vegan,. The wife only started eating eggs from our hens to stop having to have vitamin B injections !!
We look forward to seeing you in our vegetarian forum we have a vegan section in it
 
Hello,
I am type 1 but not vegan. My brother is not diabetic but he is vegan / fruitarian. I have been tempted to try that way of eating but am so used to my blood sugars being stable on low carb high fat (a lot of meat and animal products), that I currently don't feel the need to make a change. I can't imagine bolusing for a 6 banana smoothie! However, if you can make it work for you and you're blood sugars are stable and you're getting all the nutrients that you need I don't see why it should be considered unhealthy. There are a lot of vegan / fruitarian Type 1s knocking about on the internet, give it a Google
 
Hey!

I am type 1 and have been a vegetarian for the past 12 years now (pescicatarian on and off - meaning there are times when i ate seafood only).
My sister who is also Type 1, after experiencing some diabetes related complications became full vegan about 4 or 5 years ago and within a couple months she found all of her problems went away and has stuck with it.

I think (my opinion only) that vegan/vegetarianism is just about the best choice for humans in general (this is not the place for that discussion though).

I fully support you and think if you want to give it a go you will need to adjust your ratios and basal and there will be a transition period with some unpredictability where you become more adventurous - but it seems like you've pretty much nailed it already nailed it so far!

As far as health wise you will still need to maintain protein intake and other macro nutrients but there is no reason why you can't do it, it just takes some learning and eventually it becomes the natural way you eat.

You got this, if you want to do it there is no reason why you can't do a trial month. Don't worry about labeling it as 'vegan' just find a diet that YOU are happy with - if that means 'vegan' but every now and then you take whey protein powder then thats fine, its what YOU need - forget about the labels and just do whatever makes you happy. It is not uncommon to use have a slow transition from veg to vegan - as it can take some time to balance everything safely.

If you need to chat you can send me a message I'd be more then happy to help if i can.
 
I too find animal protein will raise me being vlc but I only eat about 1 or 2 oz per meal and I bolus 1/2 unit per ounce. ( about 30-35 gm pure proteins day) I believe vlc has a lot to do with it.
I have toyed with vegetarianism but can't figure out how to get enough protein without soy and dairy which both of I cannot eat and I certainly couldn't eat enough beans.
There is something to animal protein and bs for sure but I feel it's important to get some complete animal protein everyday even if in small amounts FOR ME. I feel better with some but I do eat more fish and poultry than red meats and as I said in small quantities. I certainly don't need slabs.
For me, I cannot get insulin right with carbs therefore I am vlc with only small amounts of above ground veg. Most of my calories come from fat like Evoo avocado nuts seeds and mayo. It's starting to sound like carbs work without animal protein and animal protein works better without carbs ( to keep bs very steady) perhaps mixing all the macros confuse things. Interesting concept. I know I have heard many say their bs is better without flesh protein. I'm not sure I could maintain that as well as I don't digest carbs at all so not an option for me unfortunately. I still find this incredibly interesting

Sounds like you're figuring things out so good for you! I am wondering how you feel? Is energy good etc?
 
After reading and seeing so much about the meat industry the wife and i decided to cut back on meat though not avoid it completely. There are weeks that we don't eat any meat at all and i must say that those weeks i do find myself on the low side quite often.

Also actually tried juicing for a couple of weeks just out of sheer curiosity and i must say that i felt like **** for the first couple of days but after that initial phase i dare say i never (not an exaggeration) felt so good in my life. I had so much energy it was ridiculous. I still got some solid food in me though but those were exclusively veggies and fruit. I kept up cycling 4 times a week and a heavy powerlifting routine 3 days a week on this diet. After this my wife and i were hooked on eating less meat and more whole foods (vegetables, fruits, nuts, ...). I kept gaining strength and muscle, i'm generally more energetic and lately i seem to have lost some fat, ... guessing i'm down to 8% bodyfat as my abs and obliques are starting to show.

On a personal note i was the anti vegetarian, meat loving, bacon munching person at any BBQ. So if i can change i think anyone can. It wasn't even that hard, i found out how good i felt after a while and i noticed a craving for healthy food and the rest is history. But as said i did not cut meat from my life completely but as a rule when we eat meat we eat a proper piece of meat not a sorry looking hamburger.
 
To be fair. I went veggie whilst traveling through south India a number of years ago.. Most of the "livestock" apeared to be walking road kill.. So I left well alone...
 
Hello everyone!
Thank you very much for your very interesting comments.
Please, allow me to clarify that, I am not interested in veganism for religious reasons and also, I am not an activist trying to convert everyone into a vegan.

It so happened that about a month ago, I accidentally realized that a vegetarian/vegan type of diet gave me more positive results in relation to my diabetes and my insulin sensitivity.

During the process of googling (in an effort to educate myself) about the relation of carbohydrates, protein, vegan diet and type 1 diabetes, I came across some videos (you will find the links below in case you wish to watch them) which became an eye-opening experience for me.

At this point, veganism transformed into an ethical matter for me (instead of a dietary approach).
I am not advocating that everyone should do it.
I am not, even, advocating that it works. It has worked for me (just for me) for the past 1 month.
I do not know if it will continue to work well… if it will give me even better results… or worse.
It is, for the time being, an experiment which seems to have produced good and interesting results.

My persistence to continue working on it though, has recently transformed into an ethical matter, for me, as well and this is the reason why I truly want to make a serious effort to make veganism work for me.

Having said that, “Kristin 251” above states an interesting observation which I do share.
When my plate has carbohydrates only, my insulin ratios work like a dream.
When my plate has a combination of carbohydrates and animal protein, my ratios are messy (not tragic but, messy and somewhat inaccurate)

In my case, bolusing for protein is a difficult task and I will explain why with the following example:
Say I have lunch at 13:00, a combination of a normal, healthy portion of carbs and meat. I bolus for both carbs and meat.
By 15:00 I hypo and need to treat.
It is only by 16:00-16:30 that the protein starts to convert into sugar and my bg starts to rise (on top of treating the hypo earlier). Therefore, bolusing for protein is difficult because I cannot (until now) match the insulin peak with the timing that protein converts into sugar.

This is the reason why I thought about a month ago “let’s exclude animal protein, focus of finding the correct ratios for carbs first and then, continue from there.” And, this is how, through this experiment, I started flirting with veganism…

What I do not know (because I have not tried it yet) is if there is a difference between animal protein and vegetable protein (in the way they affect bg). This remains to be seen… (your experience with these though (tofu, quinoa, legumes) is very much wanted, please do share!!

I spoke to my DAFNE educator and nutritionist yesterday about my willingness to try to become a vegan.
Initially, I thought that she would be negative as she always says to me that I should never exclude dietary groups.
Surprisingly, she was very supportive of the vegan idea… She already booked an appointment for me so as for us to plan a strategy on how to gradually convert to veganism (using iron tablets as supplements along with a well planned diet) because, this is not a process that happens overnight.

I must admit to you that hearing from my nutritionist “If you want to do then, let’s go for it! I am fully supportive of veganism and your idea” was not the reaction that I was expecting…

Regarding veganism as an ethical choice,

I read that 75% of all animals are herbivores (which felt surprising to me.) I would never attempt to turn my dog into a herbivore as I know that it is in his nature (his DNA code as a species) to be a carnivore. However, regarding myself, I do wonder if we eat meat because it is in our genetic code as species or if we eat meat because he are conditioned (or educated) to do so from an early age…

I read somewhere that, according to the American Ministry of agriculture, if we all decided to turn vegans for 1 day, we would be able to feed the overall world population during that day… twice!

“Shar67” wrote above “I watched a programme on hunger a mother was feeding her children, boiled newspaper, it looked like porridge, she said it stopped that hollow feeling, can you imagine having to do that.
Here we are pondering giving up food, when there are babies with nothing.”

I do not intend to begin an argument, this is not my intention. (it is the diabetes management that I am interested in). However, "Shar67"s comment did tickle my mind a little bit...
Many people are starving in this world, this is very true. 50% of the world crops are cultivated and fed to the animals that you and I eat. This 50% of the crops is not given to the hungry people… these people eat newspapers to stop themselves from feeling hungry… the cows and the chickens and the turkeys that we eat, have never missed a meal… Therefore, the babies in the world have nothing to eat because that piece of cow on our plate ate their food so that it can be fat enough for you and me to enjoy it.

Thank you all very much for your comments and suggestions!
Please keep them coming!
This thread is very interesting to me!!

Regards
Josephine

P.S. Here is the link, for those who might be willing to understand why veganism became an ethical issue for me.
http://www.nationearth.com/
and
 
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I was vegan briefly and vegetarian for much longer. Now I'm neither. It's not that I don't appreciate the moral arguments - I do, and often have moments where I think about them more. But, for me, the truth is that humans are omnivores and do best on a diet that includes animal protein of some kind. That's my opinion - not a statement to provoke anyone in any way. It's very difficult to get everything you need (eg B12) from a vegan diet and requires a lot of planning and checking and careful food choices as you'd be surprised how many things have animal products in, even healthy choices or vegetarian foods.

Personally, I concentrate on non-animal foods like veg and fruit and then augment them with ethically chosen top quality animal foods in moderation. That's my personal choice - yours is, of course, equally valid

Your observations about your blood sugar are interesting. I think you see the effect more because you're eating very low carb. For me, if I had, say, potatoes, meat and veg, I can bolus accurately and have perfect blood sugars two hours after and continuing afterwards too. I've eaten VLC and find it's much more difficult to control my blood sugar. A moderate amount of carbs makes control much easier.

Go for it and see how you get on I think there's no 'perfect diet' and we must all choose what suits us
 

Hi,
That is one hell of a compelling video.. The film foottage disturbing & I genuinely "felt"..
Of course I've seen all this historical imagery before, but never all under "one roof" & In this context..

In your quote of a quote above. "according to the American Ministry of agriculture, if we all decided to turn vegans for 1 day, we would be able to feed the overall world population during that day… twice!"

How much "pest control" like the shooting/trapping/poisoning of feral animals that only naturally would take advantage of this crop??
The American ministry of agriculture seems to have forgotten insects which are not only pests but a source of food too..! plenty about..

Please don't misunderstand. My angle isn't "mockery" I am weighing up all the angles..

Some animals just don't adapt quick enough on this spinning rock. (I honestly believe humanity is somewhat a "victim of it's own success".)
That whole Genesis 1:26 "rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky," is to my mind an arrogant work of fiction. Our time will come just like the Dinosaurs.. Some other cute baby wide eyed creature will crawl out of a hole & take our place as long as this wold is left to peacefully orbit the sun as it is...
But at least for now thanks to protein we have the means to discuss this stuff without a misunderstanding that just maybe your trying to steal my favourite pointy stick? lol

I am keen to follow your vegan journey & wish you every success if it serves to manage your diabetes.

I could ramble on about Seagulls & foxes raiding our inner-city areas for food. manipulative cats & owners. & how homered I am that the dog chose me as his "pack leader" in spite of a previous history of cruelty by young men.. I really wasn't looking to be elected. Even giving the chance of a "cooling off period" but he still wants to jump in the van & come home...

Great thread though..! I'll tag in @NoCrbs4Me
 
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