Still pushing carbs and fruit

graj0 · May 30, 2015

GPs will not advise you to do anything differently to what the NICE guidelines say. If they did and something unexpected happened, it's their fault, they can't go wrong when they stick to the rules.

You will have read that the US have now changed their food guidelines, almost a year after getting the data which showed them that low fat was not the way to go. Sweden and Denmark actually inverted their food pyramid well over a year ago. I wonder how long the UK will take?

donnellysdogs · May 30, 2015

graj0 said:
GPs will not advise you to do anything differently to what the NICE guidelines say. If they did and something unexpected happened, it's their fault, they can't go wrong when they stick to the rules.

You will have read that the US have now changed their food guidelines, almost a year after getting the data which showed them that low fat was not the way to go. Sweden and Denmark actually inverted their food pyramid well over a year ago. I wonder how long the UK will take?

My bet woud be 10 years!

graj0 · May 30, 2015

I still grin like an idiot when my GP tells me that my HbA1c is only ........ and well done. She knows exactly how I do it, but she will not say anything to other diabetics and I've actually spoken to some in the waiting room. They seem gobsmacked that not only was I able to not go near insulin, but I dumped Gliclazide, Januvia and Atorvastatin (cholesterol may not be what they want, 5.4 without meds isn't too bad).

yvonne49 · May 30, 2015

It is shocking.I am so glad I decided to read books about reversing diabetes and forums like this rather than trust the Doctors advice.Diagnosed last May and told I was 2 years away from taking insulin since my numbers were so high.No,I don't think so!!! I took no drugs and reversed my numbers massively on a LCHF diet and exercise.
Sometimes it pays to go against the grain and expert advice,if I had trusted the experts I would be close to using insulin by now.

vintageutopia · Jun 2, 2015

The U.S. is not on par with Sweden and Denmark. Trust me.

When newly diagnosed in late November, I was scheduled to meet with a Diabetic Nurse Specialist. This is where it was recommended that I eat 15-30 grams for breakfast, 15-30 snacks, 45-60 for lunch and dinner, then 15-30 again for bedtime. I knew the discussion, because I had administered the same information to new and existing diabetics that were hospitalized for surgery.

Now, with my diagnosis, it became personal and It didn't make sense. I didn't want to medicate for something that I could control by my food choices. And then...I found this website and all of you. THAT made sense.

I could have followed the advice of my DNP, but it would have required me to take insulin or injections to manage my blood sugar. I wasn't willing to do that if there was a better way. I am 43 years old and have three kids 10 years of age and under. I need to be healthy for them. I want my husband to grow old with me, not take care of me. I have a chance to make that happen.

I've went rogue!

LucySW · Jun 8, 2015

graj0 said:
You will have read that the US have now changed their food guidelines, almost a year after getting the data which showed them that low fat was not the way to go. Sweden and Denmark actually inverted their food pyramid well over a year ago. I wonder how long the UK will take?

It's only Sweden. Sweden is an island of sanity in this world. Denmark hasn't.

LucySW · Jun 8, 2015

vintageutopia said:
The U.S. is not on par with Sweden and Denmark. Trust me.

When newly diagnosed in late November, I was scheduled to meet with a Diabetic Nurse Specialist. This is where it was recommended that I eat 15-30 grams for breakfast, 15-30 snacks, 45-60 for lunch and dinner, then 15-30 again for bedtime. I knew the discussion, because I had administered the same information to new and existing diabetics that were hospitalized for surgery.

Now, with my diagnosis, it became personal and It didn't make sense. I didn't want to medicate for something that I could control by my food choices. And then...I found this website and all of you. THAT made sense.

I could have followed the advice of my DNP, but it would have required me to take insulin or injections to manage my blood sugar. I wasn't willing to do that if there was a better way. I am 43 years old and have three kids 10 years of age and under. I need to be healthy for them. I want my husband to grow old with me, not take care of me. I have a chance to make that happen.

I've went rogue!

O Vintage, I couldn't agree with you more.

poohtiggy · Jun 8, 2015

donnellysdogs said:
Unless you know the full way the NHS works it is so easy to blame GPs

I totally agree, GP's no longer make the decisions, the 'Hierachy' does and they have to do as they are told, preach what they are told and go along with the guidelines, hit targets etc.
My surgery has lost two excellent GP's due to the reorganization of the NHS they left because todays NHS is not what they spent eight years training to work in, it's become too political, too complicated and 'hands tied'. One of the hardest hit areas in the changes was administration, the GP's and nurses are being buried under the weight of paperwork, it's bound to have a knock on effect and moral is low. There are doctors who should not be doctors but the majority of GP's just want to treat their patients in the way they think best but 'Government' have stuck their noses in and spoilt our health service, not the doctors

although some
GPs could be more responsive with their care.

Scardoc · Jun 9, 2015

Spencer67 said:
i agree, but to continue in the debate as "professionals" i think they have fallen behind badly at the expense of the individuals personal health. They need to catch up, we are in the middle of an epidemic that costs the NHS and tax payer millions, i've been diabetic 19 years and the only info i got that helped me get my condition back on track wasn't from any GP or book it was from this website which i think is a travesty and reflects poorly on them, i personally don't trust doctors advice, specialist or not and question everything they say. They give it a name then supply the drugs and that's about it regarding diabetes. I'm not criticizing other areas, i know they do well with the Big C and other serious conditions but the arena of diabetes has changed a lot and they are actually giving out the wrong advice to combat the condition as Ali H originally pointed out.

I’ve not been on the forum for a good while but dipping back into a few threads it all seems depressingly same old same old.
I’m not sure what the word I am looking for is to describe the comments above…patronising perhaps or maybe condescending would be better. So, GP’s are doing great with cancer and, I quote, “other serious conditions”, but not diabetes? Ok, first point, when did diabetes get relegated from the serious condition league? Secondly, why do people insist on assuming that as a GP they should be an expert on anything and everything? It’s utter nonsense. 8 years ago a GP dipped a strip into my urine sample, let out a gasp, and told me that I was almost certainly type 1 diabetic. He then picked up the phone, called the local hospital, and told them he was sending me up. His job done and, personally, I am very grateful.
The advice we get from the NHS and, ultimately, the Government, is not based on us all being diabetic, it’s based on us all living a well-balanced lifestyle that involves diet and exercise and unfortunately does not involve boycotting conglomerates who put profits before anything else. We’re only ever going to hear about the “bad” GP’s out there and negative experiences. “they give it a name and then supply the drugs” is simply not true. They diagnose and then refer or treat. I know several GP’s and know that they have a job I would never want. I would never want to see the pain and suffering that they do or have the responsibility for making the correct decisions when so much is at stake.
The first thing I was taught at the hospital on diagnosis day was that T1 is a condition I can be responsible for and that I can control. I can and I do. While I do that I do not expect my GP’s to be spending their time becoming an expert in the field as I think they have enough on their plate already. There might be, I don’t know, people with the Big C or other serious conditions out there that them more than me.
And to the OP: no offense, but if your friend is in her 70’s then I’m guessing most docs would opt to give it 6 months. Raised BG levels are a natural part of the aging process.

vintageutopia · Jun 9, 2015

Scardoc said:
I’ve not been on the forum for a good while but dipping back into a few threads it all seems depressingly same old same old.
I’m not sure what the word I am looking for is to describe the comments above…patronising perhaps or maybe condescending would be better. So, GP’s are doing great with cancer and, I quote, “other serious conditions”, but not diabetes? Ok, first point, when did diabetes get relegated from the serious condition league? Secondly, why do people insist on assuming that as a GP they should be an expert on anything and everything? It’s utter nonsense. 8 years ago a GP dipped a strip into my urine sample, let out a gasp, and told me that I was almost certainly type 1 diabetic. He then picked up the phone, called the local hospital, and told them he was sending me up. His job done and, personally, I am very grateful.
The advice we get from the NHS and, ultimately, the Government, is not based on us all being diabetic, it’s based on us all living a well-balanced lifestyle that involves diet and exercise and unfortunately does not involve boycotting conglomerates who put profits before anything else. We’re only ever going to hear about the “bad” GP’s out there and negative experiences. “they give it a name and then supply the drugs” is simply not true. They diagnose and then refer or treat. I know several GP’s and know that they have a job I would never want. I would never want to see the pain and suffering that they do or have the responsibility for making the correct decisions when so much is at stake.
The first thing I was taught at the hospital on diagnosis day was that T1 is a condition I can be responsible for and that I can control. I can and I do. While I do that I do not expect my GP’s to be spending their time becoming an expert in the field as I think they have enough on their plate already. There might be, I don’t know, people with the Big C or other serious conditions out there that them more than me.
And to the OP: no offense, but if your friend is in her 70’s then I’m guessing most docs would opt to give it 6 months. Raised BG levels are a natural part of the aging process.

Interesting perspective, @Scardoc . Speaking from a US point of view, I think the new information has not caught up with most GPs. We do have physicians here that specialize in metabolic disorders and the patient can consult them directly, so that may be a bit different than the UK. However, treating blood sugar via considerable carb reduction is not a proposed treatment plan. Similar to the UK, it places physicians in a peculiar position if their treatment varies from what the ADA (or NHS, in your case) suggests for glucose control. Especially, if complications arise. The guidelines are there for a reason and it is the safe choice. However, where the gap lies is with people who do not want to take medication (unless, they need to) or want to greatly reduce their medication consumption by an alternative means...in this case, diet. Those people stumble upon the LCHF/Newcastle information, because they are searching for a way to control their condition that more aligns with their social/health values.

Can you imagine what would happen if people were given MORE options for diabetes control? Instead, of only trotting out ADA/NHS guidelines and also mentioning LCHF/Newcastle? I think that is what people who are dealing with diabetes hope for. They want choices- choices that make sense and can help them attain their personal health goals.

There are "bad" GPs. There are also non-compliant patients. But for the majority of GPs and patients, there is a gap that needs to be filled. The diagnosis is the easy part. Living with Type 1/Type 2 is where the real need for knowledge begins.

phoenix · Jun 10, 2015

(sorry seem to have lost the quote box)
"You will have read that the US have now changed their food guidelines, almost a year after getting the data which showed them that low fat was not the way to go."

The US is actually in the middle of a scheduled revision of their guidelines which will be released in their final form later in the year. The scientific report is a large download but if you want to read it http://www.health.gov/dietaryguidelines/2015-scientific-report/

The executive summary for the scientific report says about diet patterns

Following a dietary pattern associated with reduced risk of CVD, overweight, and obesity also will have positive health benefits beyond these categories of health outcomes. Thus, the U.S. population should be encouraged and guided to consume dietary patterns that are rich in vegetables, fruit, whole grains, seafood, legumes, and nuts; moderate in low- and non-fat dairy products and alcohol (among adults); lower in red and processed meat; and low in sugar sweetened foods and beverages and refined grains

The dietary pattern characteristics being recommended by the 2015 DGAC reaffirm the dietary pattern characteristics recommended by the 2010 DGAC. Additionally, these characteristics align with recommendations from other groups, including the American Institute for Cancer Research (AICR) and the American Heart Association (AHA)

"Sweden and Denmark actually inverted their food pyramid well over a year ago. I wonder how long the UK will take?"

2) As far as I know the Swedish are signatories to the Nordic diet guidelines released last year (if I'm wrong please show me where different guidelines are to be found).
There was a change in percentages but not nearly as dramatic as suggested above.
"For total carbohydrates the population range has been changed to 45-60 E% compared to 50-60 E% in NNR 2004, as a consequence of the ranges for other macronutrients and also in line with studies on dietary patterns and health outcomes'
for fat:
"Population range for total fat intake has been adjusted to 25-40 E%, compared to 25-35 E% in NNR 2004, which is based on the sum of the ranges for the main fatty acid categories"
http://www.norden.org/en/news-and-e...endations-focus-on-quality-and-the-whole-diet

There have been many misrepresentations of Swedish reports into obesity and diabetes and repeated all over the internet echo chamber and consequently even in the BMJ. The BMJ has recently made an official correction of one such article http://www.bmj.com/content/350/bmj.h2646

The UK population recommendations for fat are currently at 35% and 50% for carbs

The UK is also in the middle of a review of it's advice on carbohydrates . The UK scientific report is here: There are sections on various conditions including diabetes
https://www.gov.uk/government/uploa...bohydrates_and_Health_report_consultation.pdf
Their recommendations on Carbohydrates are relatively the same as elsewhere in the world (they use the same evidence) They have proposed a somewhat lower recommendation than elsewhere for 'added' sugar (not more than 5% of energy ie 25g a day for women)

Spencer67 · Jun 22, 2015

Scardoc said:
I’ve not been on the forum for a good while but dipping back into a few threads it all seems depressingly same old same old.
I’m not sure what the word I am looking for is to describe the comments above…patronising perhaps or maybe condescending would be better. So, GP’s are doing great with cancer and, I quote, “other serious conditions”, but not diabetes? Ok, first point, when did diabetes get relegated from the serious condition league? Secondly, why do people insist on assuming that as a GP they should be an expert on anything and everything? It’s utter nonsense. 8 years ago a GP dipped a strip into my urine sample, let out a gasp, and told me that I was almost certainly type 1 diabetic. He then picked up the phone, called the local hospital, and told them he was sending me up. His job done and, personally, I am very grateful.
The advice we get from the NHS and, ultimately, the Government, is not based on us all being diabetic, it’s based on us all living a well-balanced lifestyle that involves diet and exercise and unfortunately does not involve boycotting conglomerates who put profits before anything else. We’re only ever going to hear about the “bad” GP’s out there and negative experiences. “they give it a name and then supply the drugs” is simply not true. They diagnose and then refer or treat. I know several GP’s and know that they have a job I would never want. I would never want to see the pain and suffering that they do or have the responsibility for making the correct decisions when so much is at stake.
The first thing I was taught at the hospital on diagnosis day was that T1 is a condition I can be responsible for and that I can control. I can and I do. While I do that I do not expect my GP’s to be spending their time becoming an expert in the field as I think they have enough on their plate already. There might be, I don’t know, people with the Big C or other serious conditions out there that them more than me.
And to the OP: no offense, but if your friend is in her 70’s then I’m guessing most docs would opt to give it 6 months. Raised BG levels are a natural part of the aging process.

Your so far off the mark i'm not even gonna bother with the bs you just churned out. Educate yourself then come back with something worth droning on about.

Scardoc · Jun 23, 2015

Spencer67 said:
Your so far off the mark i'm not even gonna bother with the bs you just churned out. Educate yourself then come back with something worth droning on about.

Pretty sure this time the word is condescending.

Celeriac · Jun 25, 2015

The guidelines won't change overnight, because food manufacturers make too much money out of peddling low fat carp and so do the supermarkets. I was in a huge ASDA yesterday, with aisle after aisle of processed rubbish.

Real food is expensive. I went to Sainsbury's yesterday because ASDA simply didn't have organic veg and bought organic white mushrooms, 2 organic avocadoes, 2 bunches of organic spring onions, a reduced price yellow-stickered bag of organic young spinach, an organic whole cucumber and some organic Vittoria cherry tomatoes - £11.19 - more than Jack Monroe spent on food for herself and her son in a week when on benefits.

It's not just processed food that needs to change from low fat high carb to LCHF it's the recipes in cook books and on TV. Hearts and Minds.

Pollylocks · Jun 27, 2015

I had been Type2 diabetic for quite a few years when I discovered this forum. Not knowing any different and not realising I should question it, I had been following the Eatwell plate for years since diagnosis, as recommended and I think I did quite well, no medication apart from the first couple of months, for 13 years, did okay, then metformin for the last 3 years.....having to go on to medication made me question things and I joined this forum...

I embraced the LCHF way of eating..... my results were better overall but I wasn't happy as I didn't understand why I had been doing relatively well without knowing about it so I tested, tested, tested.

What I have discovered is that I'm an individual, as are we all. I may be diabetic but I can eat milk chocolate, rice, many fruits apart from ones ending in 'berry', eg, mangoes, nectarines, kiwis, with hardly any raising of my bs. I can't tolerate pasta, mashed potatoes, bread, pastry etc., so for me, apart from rice, its the 'unsweet' carbs which affect me more. Who knows how much different foods affected me before this, because I don't, I looked at my food intake too generally.

So, the reason I'm really grateful that I joined this forum, is because its made me look at ALL the foods I eat. My last HbA1c was 43, the one before 48, the one before that 53. DN surprised but pleased, next one due soon, expecting it to stay about the same, fingers crossed.

So for me, I find that testing is the way to go and I think its disgraceful that we can't get monitors and strips on prescription now, luckily I can afford them but not sure about that when I retire soon, I think it would save money spent on diabetes care in the long run if they were still prescribed freely.

GrannyLynne · Jun 29, 2015

I regularly read the comments on the forum but don't often contribute. However, I feel compelled to write a ittle reply in defence of the NHS and our GPs. Where else in the workd can yu get access to consultants, specialist nurses and GPs for free? (I'm T1 so also get all my prescriptions for free too). Your GP is a General Practitioner - ie knows a little about a lot. We all, whether T1 or T2, have a responsibility for our own lives. If you don't understand something ask for clarification; if you don't agree with something you have been told then challenge it. Don't rely on others to manage your condition just make use of the tools they give you and take control, it's your life! Sorry if I sound a little harsh but I think we should all spend a little less time complaining and a bit more time being grateful!

astle9 · Jun 30, 2015

GrannyLynne although i agree that we should take control of our own health i have to disagree and tell you that we do pay for our medical services and it is not free, it may be free at the point of requirement but we have been paying for our health system since the day we began employment.

Baruney · Jul 2, 2015

GrannyLynne said:
I regularly read the comments on the forum but don't often contribute. However, I feel compelled to write a ittle reply in defence of the NHS and our GPs. Where else in the workd can yu get access to consultants, specialist nurses and GPs for free? (I'm T1 so also get all my prescriptions for free too). Your GP is a General Practitioner - ie knows a little about a lot. We all, whether T1 or T2, have a responsibility for our own lives. If you don't understand something ask for clarification; if you don't agree with something you have been told then challenge it. Don't rely on others to manage your condition just make use of the tools they give you and take control, it's your life! Sorry if I sound a little harsh but I think we should all spend a little less time complaining and a bit more time being grateful!

Shame that the free advice, in general, is so poor then - gps are gps but specialist diabetic dietitians are poor at best and dangerous at worst. As I'm sure you're aware a lot of people on this site believe in self testing which is a tool that is being taken away from T2 diabetics. I've managed my diabetes despite the official advice not due to it. The NHS is doing a disservice to the management of this condition. Complaints or accolades are merely a reflection of the advice/services given. Praise where praise is due,

Atalay · Jul 2, 2015

The best doctor for you is yourself when it comes to diabetes. My doctors told me so, and they are right! Because, docs know the primary facts about diabetes, but can never pinpoint the right solution for you to live the healthiest way you could. Every individual has its own dynamics such as lifestyle, environmental factors they are in, food they could find around, character in terms of coping mechanism for diabetes, and genetics - that what make our bodies react different to certain diabetic issues.

mikej1973 · Jul 3, 2015

Another one here to disagree with the OP. Gps are OK by me and simply losing weight has brought my blood sugar completely understand control. The Nhs approach works for me

Still pushing carbs and fruit

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