mcdonagh47
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The diagnostic figures are surrogate measures of the point on the Starling Curve of the Pancreas where Insulin Resistance outweighs Beta Cell mass.
I have done some extensive reading during the past week and so far as I understand diabetes diagnostic tools and care are abysmal.
Diagnosis: two fasting bg readings at or above 7 OR a OGTT 2h reading above 11.1/12.2 depending on test method.
But why are the limits set so extremely high?
.
Could you be a bit more specific? Or give me a reference or two?The diagnostic figures are surrogate measures of the point on the Starling Curve of the Pancreas where Insulin Resistance outweighs Beta Cell mass.
Because (1) T2 is entirely the patient's own fault; and (2) we're going to die anyway, so it's purely about managing our deterioration - and who would deny a dying person a cream bun?
Kate
Hej!Tack ska du ha, Scandichic! Har du förresten gått med i Kostdoktorns forum än?
My aim with the thread about diabetic madness is about the fact the diagnosis seem to step in far to late and care seems slack. I really don't understand why diabetics are encouraged to eat a lot of carbs and discouraged to keep their bg at safe levels. And I really want to know what a safe bg level is. I have seen HbA1c goals of 52! Why not aim for 36? Or lower? Why not aim for a safe level? I know you are with me here Scandichic, but I am a bit upset about what I perceive as a lack of proper scientific basics that leads to diabetes being accepted as a progressive disease etc.
There is a fantastic site for thyroid sufferers called Stop the thyroid madness. I feel the diabetic madness is close in terms of madness, even though thyroid problems are more common, in women at least.
Exactly. The diagnosis is arbitrary then we are blamed for it, and the care is abysmal.I was born with kidney disease & finally lost my function 16yrs ago, after my Renal Transplant I was diabetic, but count as type 2 on insulin. I get so upset at 'proper' diabetics tell me its my own fault, I had no sign of Diabetes before my tx.
If people choose to do nothing about their condition I could sort of understand this attitude although not necessarily agree. but t2 is not necessarily someone's fault (see poor poster with kidney issues). I have no excuse for my weight but what makes me angry is the lack of support for those of us who are trying to change our lifestyle - pretty much everyone on this forum. It amazes me how many people whom I come across in every day life feel they have the right to tell me what I should be eating - lots of carbs! Lol! Do I tell them not to smoke, drink so much etc?! No I don't - it's non of my business! Anyway, good luck to every one - I have lost 12lbs so far and reduced my bs sugar to below half.Because (1) T2 is entirely the patient's own fault; and (2) we're going to die anyway, so it's purely about managing our deterioration - and who would deny a dying person a cream bun?
Kate
I think Kesun was ironic. Or bitter, rather. And I am with Kesun there.If people choose to do nothing about their condition I could sort of understand this attitude although not necessarily agree. but t2 is not necessarily someone's fault (see poor poster with kidney issues). I have no excuse for my weight but what makes me angry is the lack of support for those of us who are trying to change our lifestyle - pretty much everyone on this forum. It amazes me how many people whom I come across in every day life feel they have the right to tell me what I should be eating - lots of carbs! Lol! Do I tell them not to smoke, drink so much etc?! No I don't - it's non of my business! Anyway, good luck to every one - I have lost 12lbs so far and reduced my bs sugar to below half.
There is lots of evidence for both, probably less under the term portion control but lots more for calorie restriction. Here's one for portion controlno one has provided me with a single shred of evidence for the Portion control approach or the low GI approach. I can only conclude that there isn't any!
Oh no, please don't think I was ranting at Kesun! I got the irony but am feeling cross with those people who are giving us t2s a hard time and judging by Kesuns post she had received some of that negative treatment. I can forgive people for their misguided views but find the callous, careless, patronising attitude of some medical professionals difficult to understand.I think Kesun was ironic. Or bitter, rather. And I am with Kesun there.
And you have found the perfect way to loose weight AND bg! Low carbers as in Kostdoktorn forum are mostly those who need to loose a lot of weight and you do brilliant, don't you? .
Thank you for these links. I am really pleased to get a response from someone who can give me evidence (other than anecdotal) to support their arguments. I am going to go away and read these documents. This is what I asked the diabetic nurse for but she was unable to give me anything to read.There is lots of evidence for both, probably less under the term portion control but lots more for calorie restriction. Here's one for portion control
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17592101
One for GI
http://journals.cambridge.org/action/displayAbstract?fromPage=online&aid=7892481
For a totally contrary but seemingly extremely successful trial of a rather whacky sounding diet look up the results of the 6 momth Ma Pi 2 macrobiotic diet ( brown rice, beans and seaweed ! the absolute opposite of a LCHF diet ) in Cuba
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21483296
Seriously one can find evidence for many diets, the difficulty is sorting out the wheat from the chaff. By their very nature diet studies are hard to control and for anything over 6 months it becomes increasingly difficult to motivate people to stick to their assigned diets. (wonder how long people would stick to the Ma Pi diet outside of the metabolic ward) Many trials also are weight loss trials with results for glucose levels and other things 'thrown' in. That doesn't help people with any type of diabetes who don't need to lose weight nor those who have lost it and need to maintain weight and glucose levels.
Often the results with any intervention are less than spectacular. ( though personally, I think that there have been some good results from longer term Med diet ones recently)
I think you say that you come from Sweden. It's worth reading the report of your own SBU scientific committee. They emphasise the lack of quality in most trials . I can give you the link to the English summary but it doesn't have references. I'm sure that the full document will have.http://www.sbu.se/upload/Publikationer/Content1/1/mat_diabetes_eng_smf_110517.pdf
Found this abstract: http://www.abstractsonline.com/plan...d10&mKey=7e87e03a-5554-4497-b245-98adf263043c
24 healthy objects ate a lunch of 511, 743 or 1034 calories respectively, carb content 50 E% so in the largest meal the carb content was 130 grams, a huge amount in my eyes. The bg readings went up from 4.something to just below six in 30 min, then went down. So this is the normal response. To eat 130 grams of carbs in one go and not even go above 6.
The interesting result was from the lower amount of carbs in the healthy group.
A low blood sugar reading was observed.
"lower caloric intake results in an overshoot of insulin, which may elicit post-lunch hypoglycemia."
It's certainly a bit of a shambles when it comes to doctors and diagnoses. Good job we have this forum to guide us. I'm not wiating for a diagnosis, I;m trying to sort my BG levels out now.I have done some extensive reading during the past week and so far as I understand diabetes diagnostic tools and care are abysmal.
Diagnosis: two fasting bg readings at or above 7 OR a OGTT 2h reading above 11.1/12.2 depending on test method.
But why are the limits set so extremely high?
The result is that when the medical staff finally take notice we already have organ damage as this start when bg goes above 6 for any length of time.
we are told to check bg two h after a meal when the levels are going down again, but not to check at 45-60, where bg peaks. Why?
Most of us are told not to check bg at all so we are completely in the dark. And we are told to eat enormous amounts of carbs that will make our bg shoot up and cause more organ damage.
And we are recommended bg targets that are sure to damage us more and lead to stroke, heart failure, blindness, renal failure, amputations, cancer and dementia.
I really don't get this.
I will however be given a bg monitor on prescription tomorrow, after threatening not to eat a single carb ever more in my life until I was given one.
Tack ska du ha, Scandichic! Har du förresten gått med i Kostdoktorns forum än?
My aim with the thread about diabetic madness is about the fact the diagnosis seem to step in far to late and care seems slack. I really don't understand why diabetics are encouraged to eat a lot of carbs and discouraged to keep their bg at safe levels. And I really want to know what a safe bg level is. I have seen HbA1c goals of 52! Why not aim for 36? Or lower? Why not aim for a safe level? I know you are with me here Scandichic, but I am a bit upset about what I perceive as a lack of proper scientific basics that leads to diabetes being accepted as a progressive disease etc.
There is a fantastic site for thyroid sufferers called Stop the thyroid madness. I feel the diabetic madness is close in terms of madness, even though thyroid problems are more common, in women at least.
I think your being a little unfair to type 2 patients. There is no way you can be a expert in making such a comment.Because (1) T2 is entirely the patient's own fault; and (2) we're going to die anyway, so it's purely about managing our deterioration - and who would deny a dying person a cream bun?
Kate
izzzi, as others have said, Kate was being ironic here quoting the "usual" condemnations from "The Great Unwashed" (which include a lot of HCPs!)I think your being a little unfair to type 2 patients. There is no way you can be a expert in making such a comment.
Yet you have succeeded in hurting many genuine type 2 diabetes patients that have strong feelings regarding blame..
never mind I will exchange my cream bun for a wee dram well before I die.
I reckon I keep load down, which helps.That's a well known effect as the amount of insulin released is somewhat "guessed" at by the body and is based on how many carbs you ate in the previous few meals so, if you have a working pancreas, and eat an average amount of carbs then eat a low carb meal too much insulin may well get produced and you can get low bg's. In most people this is rarely felt as anything physical as the liver will dump glucose to sort the problem out without the person ever being aware that its happened. It has probably happened hundreds of times in the average middle aged persons life.
From some of your previous posts Douglas you seem (like me) to be using the "insulin response is based on the previous average" to good effect. Even though my pancreas doesn't work at 100% it does work reasonably well so as long as I keep under its impaired ability I have trained it to cope with probably nearly double the carbs a day (up to around 130g) than that I could tolerate in the first year after diagnosis. This in no way implies that those who keep to very low carb levels a day are doing anything wrong and in fact I'd recommend it to the newly diagnosed as it gives your pancreas the well deserved rest it needs.
Because (1) T2 is entirely the patient's own fault; and (2) we're going to die anyway, so it's purely about managing our deterioration - and who would deny a dying person a cream bun?
Kate
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