To Low Carb or Not to Low carb

Personally, i think a lot of people need a dose of common sense.
Any diet that says bacon is a better choice than an apple is silly.
Apple = vitamins, fibre, nutrients, and carbs
Bacon = fat, and bit of protein.

Our bodies need carbohydrates. That's what we run on.
An excess of carbs isn't good for anyone, though.

We need to concentrate on what makes OUR blood sugar levels bad, and forget about what everyone else eats or doesn't eat.

Well I for one agree with Celtic.Piskie.

As I have said before, my own approach is a low glycemic load regime.

It keeps bg level with few dips or spikes, and has allowed me to lose nearly 2 stone whilst eating like a gourmet.

I do eat bacon though - in addition to apples :?

Fewer brain mitochondria has been linked with brain aging, Alzheimer’s, Parkinson's, Lewy Body Disease etc.

Click to expand...

Dr H if you check out the link you will find that a Ketogenic diet may help AD sufferers

When carbohydrates are very low and fat is high, compounds called ketone bodies are generated (ketosis) and these compounds may play a role in the observed reduction in amyloid-beta. In association with a group from University of Washington led by Dr. Suzanne Craft, Henderson has previously shown cognitive improvement in patients with mild AD who were given a diet that raises ketone bodies.

Click to expand...

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/20 ... 072307.htm

Unsaturated fats are considered healthier, but a decrease in fat intake will increase levels of HDL. This contains 'good' cholesterol. Which apparently helps to prevent cardiovascular disease.

Click to expand...

The following is from the initial Exeter DUK LC study, the results from the long term study were presented to the DUK conference in March of this year, we still await publication of the study.

The results of an initial study of a low carbohydrate diet has surprised many experts who thought that the relative increase in fat content would result in a worsening of glycaemic control and a worsening of lipid profiles rather than completely the opposite. Whilst this work has not changed national guidelines it has made it clear that further work is needed
in this area such as the long-term study funded by Diabetes UK in Exeter. This has also led to the idea that a low carbohydrate diet may indeed be the logical extension of a low glycaemic index diet that has been favoured by many dietitians.

Click to expand...

Graham

Celtic.Piskie said:

Our bodies need carbohydrates. That's what we run on.
An excess of carbs isn't good for anyone, though.

Click to expand...

Absolutely right CP. But what is a manageable amout of carbs for one person would cause a carb overload for someone else. Plus of course there is a big difference between what a type 1 such as youself can get away with by manipulating the insulin dose, where a type 2 can only manipulate the carb content.

We need to concentrate on what makes OUR blood sugar levels bad, and forget about what everyone else eats or doesn't eat.

Click to expand...

So you are suggesting that if anyone posts on here what has worked for them then the advice should be ignored? There wouldn't be much point in having a diabetes forum.

Dr H said:

Spiral, you are the one I'm sparring with.

Click to expand...

Dr H, I really am very flattered that you started a whole thread just to get my attention. No one has ever done that kind of thing for me before. I had no idea you felt that way.

But surely, you could just have messaged me to get my attention?

So you are suggesting that if anyone posts on here what has worked for them then the advice should be ignored? There wouldn't be much point in having a diabetes forum.

Click to expand...

No, i'm saying that people who seem to think that their way is the only 'acceptable' way, need to stop pressuring or worrying people so much.
Idea's are good, knowledge is good. The more information we have, the better we can help ourselves.
Diabetes is a very personalised disease, and i object when i see people marking me as a 'binger', or a 'cheater', even worse, they think i'm stacking up medical problems because i eat 'gasp' carbs.
I eat pizza, i eat sushi.
I still have good blood sugars, good hba1c's.
I know that a lot of diabetics can't. I can only say how and what worked for me. I have no idea if it'll work for anyone else. Frankly, as long as people are healthy, i couldn't care less what they eat.

There are always going to be different perspectives in diet because of the many different types and medications taken.A type one on insulin will obviously have a different view of diet from a type 2 on diet only and a type 2 on medications will have yet another different opinion.
The whole point however, is that every diabetic has to watch the amount of carbs they are eating.Some will be able to eat more than others and maintain good control and others just have to eat the minimum to maintain that same control.
Therefore ,as each person gives their own experiences there will be others who think that they do not have to do that.This is where the knowledge comes in, the shared experiences of the whole diabetic community,not just one particular group.
New members can read what is here and identify with their own condition and try out different diets etc to maintain their own control. Choose and discard and learn.

Graham - one of the things the Exeter study has shown is that the low carbers migrated upwards so compliance was an issue. Also the higher carb control group had very similar results.

Diabetes Uk are reviewing their guidelines - I and many other dietitians feel that they are promoting too may high GI foods in their plans! I thik you will find that many HP do not use their advice about diet!

the fact is that using a lower GI approach works and many on here are showing that!

Forgive me for pointing out that by eating smaller portions, you will very likely reduce your carb intake. You may not alter the proportion of carbs in your diet, but you will reduce the absolute amount.

Yet again we have indigo in the rainbow.
this is an exact anology to the "eat plenty of carbs" advice
It says in the textbooks that hte colours of the rainbow are Red, Orange, Yellow, Green, Blue, Indigo and violet. We learn the mnemonic Richard Of York Gave Battle In Vain. Yet look for both blue and indigo in an actual rainbow in vain. They just aren't both there. There's blue, but it's not an indigo. WE could all just look at a rainbow, but many of us just quote the mnemonic, because it's in the books like that.
The anti low-carb debate is the same. those that follow it find themselves feeling well and their blood glucose under control.( Bernstein and his patients have done this for decades) Even those who just reduce their carbs a bit, find it beneficial. Yet we still have "The Medical Establishment" with its closed mind telling us it's dangerous and quoting spurious, woolly, unsubstantiated "evidence". NO STUDY on the specific question on the long term safety of reducing carbs in the diet, has EVER proven a link between low carbing and ill health. That certainly includes the Atkins diet, Yudkin was advocating reducing carbs in the 1960s . There is no specific syndrome resulting from low carb intake, equivalent to deficiencies in protein( kwashiokor) or deficiencies in fat soluble vitamins( rickets, clotting defects, night blindness, etc)
Dr. H. Your scientific training should have taught you to evaluate evidence, Mine did.

hana that is very true - reducing portion sizes . Most people cannot judge portion sizes and may be that is at the heart of the whole carb problem - I certainly find in practice it is a problem , most people under estimate what they are eating !

one of the things the Exeter study has shown is that the low carbers migrated upwards so compliance was an issue. Also the higher carb control group had very similar results.

Click to expand...

Seeing the long term study has not been published yet can you corroborate your statement :?:

the fact is that using a lower GI approach works and many on here are showing that!

Click to expand...

Exeter study quote.

This has also led to the idea that a low carbohydrate diet may indeed be the logical extension of a low glycaemic index diet that has been favoured by many dietitians.

Click to expand...

Graham - I have spoken to the team in Exeter a couple of times.

If low GI works why are you so against it. I use it and it seems quite a number on here do. I really think that alot of the so called low fat advice that people are given does not encourage portion control and that is something I would love to research - what advice people were given and has it affected their bs control - I cannot recall any research like this . In fact i am doing a masters and thinking may do something along this line!

allyx

The significance of low GI is underestimated. Whether or not you actually follow the diet full time doesn't matter as much as being acutely aware of the effect lower GI foods have on blood sugar, e.g. pasta and rice. Understanding this effect, and consequently adjusting my insulin dose to match, has been a revelation to me in terms of my control. But I have a pump so can do it easily.

kegs that is very true but also the influence of protein and fat with meals. That is why i get so annoyed about this low fat myth - i have never , nor found dietetic colleagues tell people not to eat fat - apart from the obvious foods like crisps, cake etc

We could do with a UK low GI data base really!

I do have carbs, in the form of vegetables. I get fibre from vegetables, nuts and seeds. If I eat carbs from flour, rice, pasta and starchy vegetables or sugars from delicious fruits, up go my BGLs.

Without medication I can have my BGLs in a range of about 4.5 to 5.6 these days. Last HbA1C was 5.0 after only 2 months of a more strict regime. Yes, my combined cholesterol went up to 5.77 but hey, look at my Triglicerides and my ratios and did I mention the fluffy sized particles versus the tiny particles in my cholesterol?

NO medication, no nasty side effects like constipation. Nine months on a vague low carb diet gradually getting refined as I work out what I can have or not and a 14.9kg weight loss as of today!!!

National Diabetes week here in Oz last week so I went along to my first local meeting. Disappointed that the rep from Diabetes NSW was reminding people to make sure they followed the dietary advice from the department which I initially had when diagnosed 18 months ago. By doing just that I progressed to being prescribed Metformin and had no weight loss. Changed to this new way of eating and immediately the change began. I mentioned my journey at the meeting and one woman asked me what I did so I told her to read Atkins and Bernstein if she could.

A week later she rang me and told me that she believes that her life has been saved. She read one Atkins book (not the diabetes one) and finally understood diabetes and the damage it causes despite having it for 20 years. She can't take meds due to other problems and since starting on the suggested eating plan she had gone from readings of 17-24 on an average day to 7-10! She has ordered the more detailed Atkins Diabetes book and Bernstein from the library and thanked me for speaking up...

Broadly I think that takes us back to the difference between T1 and T2? T1s HAVE to use insulin as quite literally we wouldn't last very long without, T2s can quite often manage without any meds at all but still should avoid foods that obviously raise blood sugar levels?

I really wish there was a UK GI database, the closest I've found is the following:

http://www.glycemicindex.com/

This type of thread makes this site so valuable; and I applaud the back and forth on here. A lot of interesting points have been raised and I wanted to reply to Doctor H's postings in detail, but alas work is getting in the way.

I will try and do so, but in the meantime for a detailed breakdown of why the low carbohydrate approach makes not just practical sense but also logical sense read the Gary Taubes book 'The Diet Delusion'; quite dense but very persuasive.

Lastly Doctor H; the elephant in the room here is carbohyrdates and the damage they do to us as diabetics, I hear your repeated refrain that the 'body needs carbohydrate' but the evidence simply does not back that up. In fact the more I look at this area and the more I see the results of the high carbohydrate approach the more I am convinced that it is not only wrong for diabetics but probably wrong for everyone.

Dillinger

Yet again, the assumption is made that those who have not signed up to "low-carb" are eating unrestricted amounts of carbs.

I've been diabetic for 15 years.
I've been a med- carb person.
I love pizza, pasta, but i eat a lot of salads, and nuts etc too.

What harm has it dome my body?
I am in great physical shape, had an extremely uneventful pregnancy, feel as healthy as a horse.
I spent 18 months of my life working as a ski instructor.
You cannot do that if you are unfit.

My hba1c's have always been good, my sugars usually run 4 - 7, so i really take objection when people call a carb diet 'bad'.
Just because you do not get on with it, doesn't mean it's killing the rest of the population.

If people wish to eat low carb, fine. But please, don't tell me it's killing me when i am in very good health, and always have been.