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Type 3c, taking insulin, good/bad?

C

Civilised Devil

Member
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Hello everyone hope you are well.
This is more or less for type 3c who's pancreas have made them diabetic. The title is a question I have been mulling over for a while now, and let me be clear, don't stop taking your insulin, the ability of insulin is not what I'm questioning.
Let me explain.
On the 14th October 2019 I was doubled over in the worst pain that I could never have imagined, Three months in hospital 5 operations, 7 stone weight loss, chronic Pancreatitis, but no diabetes, damage to the pancreas, malabsorption intermitten pain but no diabetes.
September last year massive pancreatitis flare up and admitted to hospital 5 days and diagnosed with diabetes type 3c. prescribed lantus that I used once a day, checking Blood Glucose twice a day. After about three weeks I was constantly getting low BG some dangerously low so I lowered the lantus dose then low BG again so again lowered the lantus dose till It got to the point I didn't need it at all so stopped taking it. My consultant told me that my pancreas was still making insulin so it wasn't that badly damaged it could still make insulin,as it de-inflammed insulin production returned.
Now this is a story a diabetic nurse told me that got me thinking, several years ago a group of body builders taking steroids started taking insulin to convert more glucose to energy for a more intense workout, word spread and lots of bodybuilders stared doing the same. Now, because they were taking injected insulin there pancreas stopped making insulin and when they stopped taking injected insulin they ended up diabetics, because the pancreas didn't have to make insulin, it stopped making it alltogeather.
Around 5 weeks ago I had a blood test included was a HAb1c test slightly high but no insulin prescription.
Three weeks ago I went to the diabetic clinic, the docter prescribed novorapid along with lantus and here's the thing. My diabetes is getting worse, no change in diet/exercise and yet my BG readings are slowly getting higher requireing a bigger insulin dose.
So Hence the title. And this is the question, is taking insulin having a detrimental effect on my pancreas ability to want/need to make insulin, like the body builders am I making my pancreas lazy?
Anybody with type 3c experience anything similar? Readings coming up unusually low? Having to up your dose of insulin but not seeing why? Would love to hear your experiences, stay well
 
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Hi and welcome to the forum, and sorry about your recent 3c diagnosis.

Also sorry that the nurse decided to pass on an irrelevant anecdote of zero use to you.

It would have been far more useful to you if she had explained how insulin resistance works.
This is a v brief overview
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Insulin_resistance

And you may find Jason Fung’s blog Intensive Dietary Management useful - but it is important to remember that he is aiming his blog at a primarily T2 audience, not a newly diagnosed 3cer.

Something to bear in mind is the possibility that your pancreas may be slowly losing its insulin producing capacity, following your last nasty bout of pancreatitis.

Another possibility is that your poor over stressed pancreas has heaved a huge sigh of relief at no longer bearing the burden alone, and is taking a nice little rest. In which case it may perk up a bit after a while.

Those last two are, of course, just speculation. However, I would urge you not to place much confidence in the nurse's story. There is a huge difference between a few misguided insulin-abusing body builders, and your situation.
 
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Hello and thank you for your reply, I,m still reading up on 3c there is a lot of good informative articles out there. The one constant that keeps appearing is the common misdiagnosis and misunderstanding of 3c and is often diagnosed as T2. 3c is the pancreas inability to make insulin because of damage done to the beta cells eg as in pancreatitis, as far as I can tell this is more similar to T 1 were the Insulin making beta cells are attacked and destroyed by the body's immune system. So both are not making Insulin.
Insulin resistance (IR) is a pathological condition in which cells fail to respond normally to the hormone insulin. How is this relevant to 3c? I do not mean to come across as flippant but Insulin resistance is more a T2 condition, no? Type 3c is about not producing insulin in the first place.
Have scanned Jason tung's blog and your right it is aimed at T2 an so not really relevant, for a lot of pancreatitis sufferers fat is the enemy, of course the body needs fat but even with enzyme replacement therapy it can trigger an attack so a more holistic approach is needed that addresses the needs of diabetes and pancreatitis togeather.
Speculation is the first step to a hypothesis and is always welcome and you may be right every attack might destroy more beta cells. The lag in time between attack and need for insulin is what concerns me, that and the insulin needed has increased as I increase the dose, hence the relevance of the bodybuilders story. Speculation yes, but it's about considering what might be possible based on observation and factual information so the question is legitimate, the bodybuilders made themselves diabetic by replacing the function of their pancreas, the beta cells stopped working.
I didn't know the pancreas can take a rest from insulin production, how is that triggered? What conditions are necessary for that to happen? And why? How does it restart? What are the conditions for it to restart? can you post a link to the relevant papers that would be most interesting. My own situation is that when the pancreas is inflamed production stops but slowly returns as the pancreas gets de-inflammed, returns to normal as does the insulin levels it has been fairly long time since my last big attack BG levels were normal then lately were slightly high but have increased significantly since the reintroduction of Lantus and now with novorapid.
The most difficult thing is getting control of the diabetes, just when you think you've got the dose right, pancreas decides to start working and BG readings of 3.0 and less from what I have read this is fairly common, wild swings in BG. my post and questions are about finding reasons and understanding for this.
Stay well.
 
Anyone can experience insulin resistance. All it needs is enough insulin floating about for the body to become resistant. It can happen for a number of reasons, including genetics, lifestyle, being obese or thin outside, fat inside (visceral fat), certain medications, NAFLD, certain hormonal disruptions, and other reasons. It certainly isn't restricted to T2s, although it is most common to them. This is why I recommended Jason Fung's blog, because he goes into excellent detail describing the whys, wherefores, and solutions. You (potentially) could have both 3c and insulin resistance. I think it is certainly more likely than some mythical shared experience with body builders.

Lots of T2s get prescribed insulin at diagnosis, but once their system settles, and they sort out lifestyle and diet, they may be able to significantly reduce their medication, or remove meds altogether. Also, for T1s and LADAs, there is something called the honeymoon period, where (after diagnosis) their pancreas seems to recover a bit, and they may be able to reduce or remove insulin for a while, although with T1 insulin will become a necessity eventually. You would have to ask your consultant whether 3cers get a honeymoon.

Your description of the difficulty of dosing when the insulin production increases and decreases unpredictably sounds like classic honeymoon to me. But I expect that no one, even your consultant, can predict whether you will continue to lose beta cells, or not.

Taking exogenous insulin doesn't kill beta cells. Sustained high blood glucose kills beta cells. So (for T1s) does the body's own immune system. Also, having a fatty liver can effectively 'smother' beta cells (which have recently been shown Professor Taylor's Newcastle Diet studies to return to function once the fat has been removed - for a minority of those undergoing the weight loss in the studies). And then, of course, pancreatitis can kill beta cells too.
 
Hello again thank you for your reply all opinions are valued and welcome. The insulin resistance is possible although no test I have had gives any indication. type 3c was diagnosed not type 2 a commonly wrong assumption made by many in the medical profession. Potentially everyone on the planet has insulin resistance, potentially, this is so loose fitting and generic as to make it largely irrelevant,
The blog you recommend, what I read I am sure it's good the why and wherefore and solutions for type 2 again I was diagnosed with type 3c with pancreatitis different type of diabetes, different diet, different lifestyle requirements.
A quick internet search found this http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/3123545.stm bodybuilders using insulin and becoming diabetic the body's natural mechanism for producing the hormone stops working. Almost Like the beta cells are being killed off because of taking insulin.
The honeymoon period is a possibility and have read about it elsewhere for type 1 and type 2 again diagnosed type 3c, nowhere does it say that it is reoccurring, the beta cells could be slowly dying off but unless they are being replaced, there is insulin production to suffice but for some reason not all the time there have been months between flare ups. Not every pancreatitis flare up has reduced insulin production but the ones that have eventually returned to normal levels the only thing different now is the increasing dosage It's the only thing that has changed, diet,lifestyle are the same to comply with pancreatitis requirements from what I have read other 3c sufferers with pancreatitis have had a similar experience sometimes over years, one sufferer wrote it was like his pancreas had an on/off switch. You wrote that my pancreas was having "a nice little rest from insulin production in this case it may perk up" I am curious where you got this from and have asked you for the details, a reference or link will suffice or is this "mythical"
Again thank you for your input, question everything and keep well
 

I did not say that your pancreas was having a nice little rest.
I said that it was a possibility. I also suggested that you discuss the likelihood of your pancreas' future production of insulin with your consultant, since they are in a much better position to judge the future of your beta cell production than anyone here on the forum.

I see that you are determined to take the vague information in an obscure news article as an indication that insulin is harmful to you. Please read it through again. The doctor quoted is an A&E doctor, not an endocrinologist, and it mentions a single body builder. The vague reference to 'experts' sounds like nothing more than journalistic chain-rattling, and in your place I would track down the actual study mentioned and read it with care. Apparently it can be found in the British Journal of Sports Medicine so it shouldn't be too difficult for you to find.

You asked me for references to my suggestion that the pancreas can take a rest from insulin production.
So I refer you to the many posts on this forum giving examples of the situations I have already mentioned. The honeymooners who go onto insulin and then find that their own pancreas recovers for a period of weeks or months. The T2 members who switch to low carb diets, and whose ability to tolerate some carbs improves. I have already said that I do not know if 3cers experience the same.

I would encourage you to read this forum broadly, and you will learn a great deal, on many aspects of diabetes.

I realise that you are probably in the early stages of accepting your diagnosis, and we all go through a stage when we want it to all go away, and things to go back to normal, without the inconvenience and stress of ongoing injections, medications and lifestyle adjustments. That is perfectly normal. However, if you really are 3c, and your pancreas is suffering following pancreatitis - and may suffer more bouts of pancreatitis in future - then you may have to accept insulin injections are a necessary part of your future. So I would urge you to try to move towards that acceptance, rather than trying to find justifications to avoid insulin. There are many, many members on this forum whose lives depend on insulin on a daily basis, and who can help you tremendously and support you in your future diabetes management.
 

Hi,

I'm exgenous insulin dependent, because my pancreas gave up.

Hmmm, what I know from the bodybuilding fraternity using insulin. They do it & are "advised" to do it because of the side effects of long term anabolic steroid use..
I've sat open jawed at some of the "advice" out there on the web regarding this practice. They upbeat go on in some cases to say, it's OK use insulin & carry on. They are basically self prescribing insulin to compensate for substance abuse, in persuit of the perfect image.. & continue to compete..
 
Your reply from the first post has been aggressive, confrontational and derogatory, your answers misleading and at best irrelevant. You wrote what you wrote its there for every one to see, phrased in a childish derogatory manner.
The"vague news article" was a quick search to your Insulting " mythical" dismissal, there are dozens and dozens of such articles, try to be open minded and at least maybe polite in your writing and maybe explain your thinking instead of just out of hand derogatory dismissal, the forum is for everyone's benefit.
I ask for references for how a pancreas takes a rest, you quote for type 1 and 2 knowing I'm type 3c on a type 3c forum how is that relevant? Then go on to admit you don't know if honeymoon period applyies to type 3c on a type 3c forum for people suffering from type 3c misleading and irrelivant.
Diabetes and pancreatitis are my life now and have been for some time the medications I take for pancreatitis I will take for the rest of my life insulin is just another to add to the list. I Come on here to help and be helped asking questions is how you learn maybe rightly or wrongly but you still learn.
Your rant, considering you don't know me seems more like projection which would explain a lot. please don't take your personal frustrations out on others, take some time out to deal with your problems instead of bringing them on here, you will work through them eventually I will leave it there and bid you good health
 
@Civilised Devil

I once again encourage you to read the forum and engage with people here who can support you in both accepting your current health situation, and in managing it. I also urge you to investigate your information sources with care, and track anecdotes back to their sources. Here on the forum, that could well be directly interacting with someone speaking from decades of personal experience, or sharing their own recent and traumatic diagnosis. Where news articles are concerned, digging down to the original study is often a revelation, because journalists often grab out of context sound bites.

Good luck with finding the answers you are looking for.
 
Welcome to the forum no one wants to be a member of.

That story your nurse told you isn't worth a grain of salt. Most likely the bodybuilders ended up T2 diabetics at some point from simply over eating glucose loaded foods. Which includes a lot of starchy high carb foods like pasta, rice, bread etc. That is part of the point in taking insulin for bodybuilders who simply do not need insulin. So they can consume more carb rich foods so they can get bigger. Insulin is the most powerful anabolic steroid there is as far as I know and that's the other part of why bodybuilders use it. When you pile in more insulin on top of over producing insulin from the pancreas you're going to be sure to create insulin resistance. So they become Type 2 diabetics. It's a really bad idea to do what they do.

Have you ever had a c-peptide level done? This measures how much insulin your pancreas is producing, if not enough then you will need insulin. If it is producing enough then you wouldn't is the general theme. Something to consider asking your HCP about.

Type 3c certainly isn't a straight forward condition and it varies from person to person. Nothing is easy about any of this.
 
Diabetes is a fluid disease changing dailey (hotly) and if like us with 3 c it can be very frustrating having type 1 & 2’s not realizing we have a very rare form of the same disease making it much more difficult to manage on a daily basis. In fact my doctor has been in business for over 40 years and though they had told me that 3 C’s were like three in 10,000 (or more)he said it’s more rare than that and that in 40 years he’s met three people and I am the third that should tell you something about how difficult it is for 3C’ers
 
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That is really interesting. I work in fitness and had heard that essentially those bodybuilders are using insulin as an anabolic steroid to create muscle - as you know with bgs of 3 there isn't much of an energy boost.
Surely what is more likely to destroy your beta cells is an autoimmune flare up rather than taking endogenous insulin? Maybe bodybuilders are prone to these once they have finished their prep for competition day? To know you'd need to see their c peptide tests or gad to work out if theirs was an auto immune response or insulin resistance from lifestyle.
Interested to know what dietary advice is offered to those with pancreatitis assuming your production of gastric juices is also impaired yet you are trying to eat an anti inflammatory diet that protects your beta cell functionality?
 
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