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Uric Acid Kidney Stone (Not!)

I did some more checking and my urine PH has been acidic for at least the past eight years (PH of between 5.0 and 5.5). For comparison, my wife has been around 6.5 during the same period. (The lower the PH, the higher the acidity.)

The T2D diagnosis, triggering the low-carb diet, was 10 months ago. So my (totally non-expert) theory is that "acidic urine" does not explain the kidney stones. If it did, they would have happened much earlier, instead of only appearing a few months after starting the low-carb diet. Even the huge change of going on a low-carb diet made zero difference to the PH level of my urine.

Also, given my long-lasting "acidic urine" it may mean that "moving the needle" on the PH level in my urine could be difficult and the doctor's suggestion to use strong, prescription supplements could make sense. But I am still not convinced that the acidic urine is the culprit. Nor am I convinced that the acidic urine is connected with my diabetes, given that the urine was already acidic eight years ago.

Finally I have done a bit of reading about acidic urine and "whether it matters" and there is a whole slew of opinions about that. The idea that "it is a problem" is treated in many quarters as "voodoo medicine." OTOH most of that debate pertains to things like cancer or well-being in general. The notion that it is an issue in helping cause kidney stones seems to be more respectable. Also, acidic urine can be a symptom of kidney disease, although so far my tests have shown healthy kidneys.

So, frankly, I am more confused than ever. To be continued....
 
I run on the high acid side too. And I did buy those strips many years ago and tried an alkalizing diet. Eating lots of alkalysing foods and very little acidic foods and nothing changed. I think you know I did The Blood Type Diet for a few years and he stated type O’s tend to have higher acidic urine. I don’t remember what mine was but it was like one point lower than it should be. Somewhere in the 5’s maybe, I haven’t tested since huge dietary changes.
I have no idea what it is since DX
Just curious, does your wife eat a lot of protein?
 
Kristin251 said:
Just curious, does your wife eat a lot of protein?
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For the past 30 years of marriage we have eaten exactly the same thing, until my T2D diagnosis in February of this year. This was a low-fat, Mediterranean diet high in vegetables, fruit, olive oil, white meat, and fish (also rice, pasta, potatos and -- in my case only --beer). We were actually living on a Mediterranean island for much of that time. We also ate a lot of cheese, and still do.

Since my diagnosis, we have continued to share the evening meal which is now low-carb and (taken over a weekly period) somewhat higher-protein than it was in the past (we have meat four or five times a week, it used to be more like three). The other two meals: she has "normal" food and I prepare my own very-low-carb meals. Most of our protein is taken with the evening meal, so I would say her protein intake is similar to mine.

But the best piece of evidence is that her urine PH has been in the 6.0 to 6.5 range (usually closer to 6.5) for the past eight years, while mine has been in the 5.0 to 5.5 range.

As for the type-O thing, I have no idea what my blood type is and do not find it in my online records, although it is probably hiding in there somewhere....

I did check out that stuff about eating "alkalysing diets" and read a lot of info to the effect that it is very hard to shift your urine PH with diet alone (not to mention a lot of medical types saying it would be a waste of time even if you could shift it). The controversy seems to center around the difference between blood PH and urine PH. A significant shift in blood PH is a medical emergency. A shift in urine PH apparently just indicates that the body is doing its job in shifting extra acids out of the body. OTOH, persistent high acid urine does seem to be associated with some types of kidney stones, and with kidney disease....

As you said in an earlier post, it is exhausting to keep track of this stuff, especially since there really isn't any consensus about the diet side of the issue.
 
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Grateful said:
As you said in an earlier post, it is exhausting to keep track of this stuff, especially since there really isn't any consensus about the diet side of the issue.
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Sounds rather like T2 diabetes and high cholesterol.
 
Grateful said:
Yes, déjà vu. Plus, the diet advice to avoid kidney stones (reduce the protein intake) makes the LC/diabetes part of the equation even harder to manage.
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Calcium also plays a part in kidney stones I believe - do you have any calcium tests at all? Maybe too much?
 
I eat meat ( red, Poultry, fish) 3 times a day! Albeit small portions. In my head ( who knows if I’m right) spreading food out in smaller quantities throughout the day is easier on all organs to filter out and do it’s job.

I would LOVE the Mediterranean diet but I don’t do well low fat. And of course fruit. But I’m drooling picturing a nice salad with lamb, olives, feta, oregano, avo chunks and a great EVOO. That I can do!

I gave the alkalizing diet a rigorous chance and it did nothing so I guess it’s true, too hard to move it.

You’re blood type probably won’t be in your records unless you’ve had a transfusion or given blood.

This is exhausting. And now you’ve got me paranoid about nuts haha. Going on vacation next week so I’ll worry about it after that and just limit them to a very small amount. For me, nuts could probably be exchanged for olives. I eat two at a time. More out of habit than anything. Maybe I’ll leave them at home an dbreak the habit on vacation. Between D, stones, quirky stomach, high BP, insomnia occasionally, aches ( from cheese) I’m scrutinizing everything I put in my mouth.

I do really think the calcium supps you were/ are taking did you no favors per your calcium stone. The supp more so than nuts. However I think you mentioned almonds? They’re very high. Macs lowest.

It really doesn’t sound like you’re eating large quantities of protein. Do you have an estimate?

There really is NO perfect food or perfect diet until we realize it wasn’t perfect as things show up. Too much to think about, weight pros and cons, etc. I’m just going to enjoy the sun today!
 
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Bluetit1802 said:
Calcium also plays a part in kidney stones I believe - do you have any calcium tests at all? Maybe too much?
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Kristin251 said:
I do really think the calcium supps you were/ are taking did you no favors per your calcium stone. The supp more so than nuts. However I think you mentioned almonds? They’re very high. Macs lowest.
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The calcium & kidney stones issue is complex. It seems the main issue is not taking too much calcium but taking too much relative to other nutrients especially oxalates. My first stone (in May) was calcium-oxalate, which is by far the most common type of stone, and not associated in any obvious way with diabetes (unlike the much less common "uric acid stone" which may or may not be the type of my "second stone" which is still under analysis).

Until the second stone, I was taking a calcium supplement of 600mg per day, split into two doses. Indeed this is the only pill I had been taking, of any kind. It was on the advice of the surgeon who fixed my broken hip a dozen years ago. But I stopped taking that pill a month ago, just in case it is indeed aggravating the kidney stone issue. Prior to the T2D diagnosis, I was eating a lot of calcium-rich foods (instead of taking the supplement) including three yogurts per day, and a lot of milk! (It is actually very hard to attain the calcium RDA just with regular food.) After the T2D diagnosis I started taking the supplements instead, otherwise the carb load from those mountains of dairy products would have been too high. Sigh.

Kristin251 said:
I gave the alkalizing diet a rigorous chance and it did nothing so I guess it’s true, too hard to move it.
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That is good to know, and it accords with what the kidney doctor said. His view was that theoretically it could be shifted with diet, but it would be extremely hard. The drug he is suggesting (if my latest stone turns out to be uric-acid) is essentially a mega-supplement, as he explained it.

I hate taking any drugs, but this time my thought is that (if it is indeed a uric-acid stone) it might be worth taking that drug for a few months just to "break the cycle" of KS production, and then drop the drug and see what happens. I personally think the main factor that kicked it off is that after T2D diagnosis, I really ramped up the exercise, but failed to hydrate enough. I was coming home all sweaty from brisk five-mile walks. I think *that* is what started the "KS factory" and although I cannot prove it, there is some medical science behind the idea.

Kristin251 said:
It really doesn’t sound like you’re eating large quantities of protein. Do you have an estimate?
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No. But typical would be: Breakfast, maybe 10g of protein in the two daily tablespoons of Chobani Greek yogurt. Lunch, most days zero protein but about twice a week, a two-egg cheese omelette. Dinner: Always meat or fish.

Kristin251 said:
There really is NO perfect food or perfect diet until we realize it wasn’t perfect as things show up. Too much to think about, weight pros and cons, etc. I’m just going to enjoy the sun today!
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Yeah, I'm off to get the Christmas tree, then an afternoon of building radios, and an evening gathered around the fireplace. Life goes on, thank goodness.
 
How do you know how long the stones have been growing for?
 
ringi said:
How do you know how long the stones have been growing for?
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You don't usually know, although in my case there are imaging studies (CAT and ultrasound). My kidneys were clear on a CAT scan May 10, apart from one stone that "passed" a few days later. From this, the doctor knows that the new stone that "passed" in early November grew after May 10.
 
Reduction in purine is often recommended for people with gout - uric acid. Might this help you?
 
So finally the lab results are in. The most recent stone is in fact a classic "calcium oxalate" stone. So the kidney doctor's hunch that it could be a "uric acid stone" does not fit. "Acidic urine" may not be the issue at all. Anyway, they are now doing yet another set of urine tests -- collecting urine over a 24-hour period and averaging out the results. So it may take a while before the doctor has a recommendation, going forward.

Meanwhile, I am changing the title of this thread to reflect that it turned out not to be a "uric acid" stone!
 
woodywhippet61 said:
I think that that is a better outcome for you?
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Well, it's a very different outcome for sure. The problem now is that we circle back to the issue of "too much protein" and possibly "too much sodium" (although my current diet is already quite low-sodium). If the conventional wisdom is to be believed, I should now probably reduce the proteins and increase the fats.

The most frustrating thing with all this is the time lag. Apply diet "remedy" then wait three to six months to find out whether it works.... On the upside, kidney stones are not a life-threatening issue (unlike uncontrolled T2D) so the fact that the diet that "reversed" T2D appears to have caused kidney stones is, well, unfortunate but not that big a deal I suppose.
 
What he say about calcium supplements?
 

Oh I was hoping that it wasn't caused by your diet choice. How unfair.
 
I don't know anything about kidney stones, but I saw someone having one and I wouldn't wish that on my worst enemy. So I hope you never have one again! I do know about gall-stones though, not great fun either.
On the up-side, just yesterday I read how they treat male cats with recurring kidney stones and well, I would be happy I'm not a cat if I were you...
 

A bit off topic but I had a male cat with stones and no it wasn't nice for him, rather like dynarod. Unfortunately we just couldn't stop them from happening and I had to make the choice to have him pts.
 
Kristin251 said:
What he say about calcium supplements?
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The doctor did not seem interested in the issue. I did tell him I had stopped taking them altogether after the second stone!

Antje77 said:
I don't know anything about kidney stones, but I saw someone having one and I wouldn't wish that on my worst enemy. So I hope you never have one again!
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The first one back in May was (briefly) the worst pain I can recall in my life. My wife drove me to A&E but by the time we had checked in there, the pain had gone away. I later found out that this was because the stone had been in the process of moving out of the kidney and into the ureter. The pain was even worse than breaking my hip playing tennis a dozen years ago, and that accident warranted full-throated screaming!

The second stone was painful, but in a different way. The (sometimes dull, sometimes sharp) pain lasted several weeks, on and off, and at one point I did consider taking the prescription Oxycodone pills that were left over from the first episode. The strangest part was in the final week when the pain was very sharp and concentrated in the male you-know-what, making me think that the stone was stuck in there. But the doctor has now explained to me that when a stone gets stuck in the bottom of the bladder, men can feel "referred pain" in the p***s even though the stone is actually still in the bladder. I thought this "referred pain" only happened with limbs like arms and legs, but now I know better!

You can imagine that I am a bit concerned about the "1.1cm" stone that the analysts found on the ultrasound of my left kidney last week (but which the doctor says is a "false image"). If it actually exists, that is a big sucker that cannot be "passed" naturally and would presumably have to be zapped with ultrasound or laser.

Looking at things on the bright side, my diabetes is a bit of a non-issue since it is totally reversed with the low-carb diet, and kidney stones are (at worst) just a really big nuisance (and I am hanging on to those Oxycodone tablets for the time being, just in case). As long as there is no actual kidney disease -- and so far, those tests are not showing anything worrying.
 
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