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When is Dawn?

Mr_Pot

Mr_Pot

Well-Known Member
Messages
4,573
Location
Berkshire
Type of diabetes
Type 2
Treatment type
Diet only
This is really a question for those with continuous monitoring. When does the Dawn Phenomenon actually occur? I don't often measure a fasting level, but when I do it is after I have got up and had a shower, I am consistent but probably inaccurate. So is a meaningful fasting level "foot on the floor" or when? What happens if, like me, you wake at actual dawn, say 6am and then go back to sleep until 8am?
 
Libre shows my levels usually start rising about 3 am. My feet are still tucked up at this time.

Don't know if that helps or answers your question.
 
I believe that cortisol/adrenaline/glucagon (probably others) usually start ramping up between 03:00-04:00 as a general rule of thumb.
 
DP is an individual thing. Totally depending on what time you get up. Your body is trying to get you ready for the day ahead so will give you the extra glucose dump out of your lovely liver
 
I was hoping someone would have an actual graph showing a ramp. If it occurs in different people at any time between 3am and actually getting out of bed, possibly later, then the long standing threads comparing fbg might actually be comparing different timings of dawn phenomena.
 
Mr_Pot said:
I was hoping someone would have an actual graph showing a ramp. If it occurs in different people at any time between 3am and actually getting out of bed, possibly later, then the long standing threads comparing fbg might actually be comparing different timings of dawn phenomena.
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I think many of us miss the salient point of dawn phenomenon discussion as it pertains to dysglycemia. In metabolically healthy individuals, DP should hardly be measurable as elevated glucose at all, since the regulatory and counter-regulatory hormones will maintain homeostasis within a very narrow corridor either side of baseline.

Talk of dawn phenomenon and fasting glucose shouldn’t be viewed as a competition between individuals finding the best time of day to get the result they want. It should be viewed by individuals as a marker of their own metabolic derangement (or lack of). In other words, if you are metabolically healthy, it won’t really matter what time you test (to a degree). If it does, then you are not metabolically healthy. This is the whole point of fasting glucose being a good marker of metabolic health.

In my opinion.
 
On average for me it is around 06:00 which is not usually when I put first foot on the floor.

I can see a brief blip if I get up for a wee in the early hours.
 
Jim Lahey said:
I think many of us miss the salient point of dawn phenomenon discussion as it pertains to dysglycemia. In metabolically healthy individuals, DP should hardly be measurable as elevated glucose at all, since the regulatory and counter-regulatory hormones will maintain homeostasis within a very narrow corridor either side of baseline.

Talk of dawn phenomenon and fasting glucose shouldn’t be viewed as a competition between individuals finding the best time of day to get the result they want. It should be viewed by individuals as a marker of their own metabolic derangement (or lack of). In other words, if you are metabolically healthy, it won’t really matter what time you test (to a degree). If it does, then you are not metabolically healthy. This is the whole point of fasting glucose being a good marker of metabolic health.

In my opinion.
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I agree that if you are metabolically healthy, then it doesn't matter when you test, in fact if you know you are metabolically healthy then why bother testing. However, as this is a diabetes forum. most people will have some metabolic impairment. It is not a question of knowing when to test for the best result, but when to test to give a good representation of whether the impairment is getting better or worse.
 
Mr_Pot said:
I agree that if you are metabolically healthy, then it doesn't matter when you test, in fact if you know you are metabolically healthy then why bother testing. However, as this is a diabetes forum. most people will have some metabolic impairment. It is not a question of knowing when to test for the best result, but when to test to give a good representation of whether the impairment is getting better or worse.
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Sure thing. In that case just test at the same time each day. Straight out of bed seems as good a time as any.
 
Although not a massive rise here is a screen dump from one of my Libre reports. It has settled more since low carbing. What I did find also was when I had to spend 10 days working in the USA it 'broke' a cycle of heavy dawn responses (time difference) So there is a way to mess with your body clock ;-)LibreScreenShot.jpg
 
FantomPoet said:
Although not a massive rise here is a screen dump from one of my Libre reports. It has settled more since low carbing. What I did find also was when I had to spend 10 days working in the USA it 'broke' a cycle of heavy dawn responses (time difference) So there is a way to mess with your body clock ;-)View attachment 35575
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What time do you get up and what time do you have breakfast?
 
My alarm clock normally drags me out of slumber around 06:30hrs and I have a couple of cups of tea about half an hour later, but no breakfast.
 
This screen dump is probably a better indication of what Dawn is up to as it shows averages of all the days. The 14:00 hrs bump was my body getting used to USA time and starting the phenomena again (I didn't change the times on the Libre). averageBS.jpg
 
FantomPoet said:
My alarm clock normally drags me out of slumber around 06:30hrs and I have a couple of cups of tea about half an hour later, but no breakfast.
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Thanks for that. I looks to me that you are getting a rise starting from the alarm clock ringing, so no pre-emptive rise while you are still asleep. As I can't do a finger prick test before I wake up, "feet on the floor" looks like the best bet for fbg. Later would show how well, or not, I cope with dawn phenomena.
 
I've posted before about when I was ill and sleeping most of the day, only waking and becoming active late afternoon - and my liver followed suit and gave me my "dawn dump" around about 5pm. Though In general I'd get a high-ish reading first thing gradually decreasing to lowest when I tested before my evening meal (and this was the first pattern I ever saw when I first started testing).

But when I was wearing a sensor regularly I wouldn't often see any apparent rise at all and the only time I might see one was after I ate. I think eating the right amount of fat meant that my liver wasn't feeling the need to supply me with more fuel.

I'm not sure what might be happening currently though as my sleeping and eating patterns have, if you'll excuse the pun, "all gone to pot" ! But I do currently tend to see lower wake up levels if I've eaten a fatty supper.

Robbity
 
Hi, visiting this site for the first time in a while. I'm a not well controlled Type 1 on MDI so recently invested in a self funded CGM (Dexcom G6). As suspected from fingerpricks I definitely have dawn phenomenon - it typically kicks in about 4-5 am and will keep rising until noon regardless of breakfast or not. So now aiming to give a correction bolus when I get up as well as any bolus for breakfast if eaten.
 
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