Why when newbies arrive with very high BS 20+ and go onto a Very Low Carb Diet

AndBreathe · Mar 3, 2015

Winnie53 said:
When I saw this topic, I was so excited. I thought maybe someone here will be able to explain why I haven't been able to get my glucose levels down into the normal range after following the LCHF diet for a little more than 3 weeks. And now, I'm crying...

My first glucose reading was 282 mm/dL (15.7 mmol/l). It took me two days to get Bernstein's book, a meter, and the right foods to start the diet.

On day 1 my fasting glucose was 254 mm/dL (14.1 mmol/l), weight was 157 pounds (71 kilograms ). Today is day 27. Fasting glucose was 146 mm/dL (8.1 mmol/l); 2 hours post breakfast 137 mm/dL (7.6 mmol/l); 2 hours post lunch 144 mm/dL (8 mmol/l); weight 152 pounds (67 kilograms).

I'm in ketosis. I've lost 5 pounds (2.3 kilograms), I am making all my food from scratch, weighing it, and figuring out the carbs, fats, and protein and am staying under 40 grams of carbs. I'm drinking water. And I'm now adding sodium. I space meals 4 hours apart, and I have a snack before bed. I'm testing myself 7 times a day. I'm walking 1 - 2 miles a day, or every other day.

My lowest reading to date is 123 mg/dL (6.8 mmol/l). Goal is 83 mg/dL (4.6 mmol/l)

I don't know why it's taking so long. I've been diabetic/prediabetic for at least 10 years, untreated. It began with being hypoglycemic 35 years ago. 3 or 4 years ago, I was diagnosed with gluten sensitivity which eliminated some grains from my diet. I've never taken a diabetes medication, nor am I now. I'm assuming that I'm more insulin resistant now.

I think you all are nice, well meaning people, but I have to say many of these posts have no place on a support forum. We all are unique individuals who respond differently to diet. I'm doing a lot of reading right now, and I'm listening to lectures as I come across them. I will figure this out, and when I do, I'll let you all know.

Going to make dinner now.

My reply here is a general reply, not to this thread.

Winnie, well done on bringing your numbers down. If you have been running undiagnosed for years, your body is likely to hang onto the higher numbers for dear life, and that could be impacting on the rate you decrease.

However, to my main point. On forums like this, I think it's important to ask the difficult, sometimes uncomfortable questions, as they spark debate and passion, and really bring out some wonderful information. If we all sit around being nice to each other all day, we descend into a sea of blandness and apathy. Challenge is what brings progress, in everything. Sometimes the most difficult questions and challenges bring about the most profound results.

Of course there are times when topics can be a bit too "left field" or deliberately hurtful or provocative, but they are usually dealt with by Admin (as well as some that are just getting going, in my view, but that's a whole different story). This place has given me a huge amount of support over the time I have been diagnosed, and I have learned as much here as I have anywhere else; from people who know what it is to live with this confounded condition.

Of course, I appreciate people are often feeling vulnerable and perhaps very sensitive at their point of diagnosis, but in a forum with many, many members, not every thread or post will sit comfortably with all members. That situation in itself would be extremely unhealthy, in my view.

Keep up your good work.

Mike d · Mar 3, 2015

I'd like to say I disagree with you AB .... but alas, I cannot

Of course, you can't offer advice without caveats, without details, without background experience and without medical knowledge but I'd hate to think this forum would ever descend to simply "chin up", "consult your GP" or anything near as bland.

Winnie53 · Mar 3, 2015

daddys1 said:
Hi Winnie53 I'm sorry, you are crying, this is my thread and I asked the question for the very reason of your statement, we all respond differently to Diet & I wanted to understand how I could help people better anything wrong in that?

I think your figures have come down very well after 27 days of been on the LCHF diet in-particular when nothing has been done for ten years of non medication and only just starting this diet.

What I would say to you is, get Trudi Deakins Book £9.99, she is the head of XPERT HEALTH who is contracted to the NHS to give dietary advice to Diabetics Type 2. She has just done a complete 'U' turn the NHS EAT WELL plate is out and she launched her book EAT FAT it explains very simple the effects for diabetic of moving to a beneficial LCHF diet and expalins that the advice that has been given to diabetic has been wrong for a long time.

http://www.xperthealth.org.uk/shop/details/p/handbook-lowcarb-highfat-lifestyle

I'm sorry you were disappointed.

Neil

Neil, I have no problem with the question. I'd like an answer too. I was planning to order the book tonight after having read Ian's endorsement. Thanks for the link. It's not listed on Amazon in the US so you solved a problem for me.

Winnie53 · Mar 3, 2015

AndBreathe said:
My reply here is a general reply, not to this thread.

Winnie, well done on bringing your numbers down. If you have been running undiagnosed for years, your body is likely to hang onto the higher numbers for dear life, and that could be impacting on the rate you decrease.

However, to my main point. On forums like this, I think it's important to ask the difficult, sometimes uncomfortable questions, as they spark debate and passion, and really bring out some wonderful information. If we all sit around being nice to each other all day, we descend into a sea of blandness and apathy. Challenge is what brings progress, in everything. Sometimes the most difficult questions and challenges bring about the most profound results.

Of course there are times when topics can be a bit too "left field" or deliberately hurtful or provocative, but they are usually dealt with by Admin (as well as some that are just getting going, in my view, but that's a whole different story). This place has given me a huge amount of support over the time I have been diagnosed, and I have learned as much here as I have anywhere else; from people who know what it is to live with this confounded condition.

Of course, I appreciate people are often feeling vulnerable and perhaps very sensitive at their point of diagnosis, but in a forum with many, many members, not every thread or post will sit comfortably with all members. That situation in itself would be extremely unhealthy, in my view.

Keep up your good work.

AndBreathe, thanks for your thoughtful and sensitive response.

daddys1 asked an important question, one that I've been asking myself for weeks. I'd like to know the answer too. It isn't helpful when forum members side step questions by making generalizations like "they must be doing it wrong". I can't speak for others here, but I am making a genuine, informed effort to get my glucose into the normal range.

The point of my post was to convey that not everyone is doing it wrong. Sometimes, even when we do everything right, the process takes longer than expected or doesn't work out. My hope is that in my case, it's the former. I'm not giving up.

I do appreciate the support and encouragement I've received. I don't think I could do this without you all. The sharing of experiences, and suggestions of books, websites, and online lectures have been so helpful. My hope is to restore my health so I can begin to reciprocate the kindness shown me these last few weeks.

Mike d · Mar 3, 2015

Hi @Winnie53

Please remember we will all lend our support ...... both to you or anyone else .... no discrimination whatsoever.

You are as different as the next person (be that T1 / T2 or all good) but there's no silver bullet for anyone, simply suggestions. A heap of them work for people (be it exercise / change of diet & diet ideas / consultation with experts / weight loss) and some might not.

It is always back to the individual concerned. You are you. If you think it isn't working, ask again. If you think your numbers aren't falling to your expectations, you'll be asked questions or advised to let it ride until something else needs to be factored into your equation.

Abandoning someone is not something this forum does. Keep well. Keep asking questions. Why? Because I did ......and not ONCE did anyone ignore or dismiss me. I genuinely owe how I am and how I feel today to people I'll never meet but they're my friends.

Embrace that.

tim2000s · Mar 3, 2015

Coming to this topic late and from a t1 perspective, my observations/summary consist of the following:

Those who are seeing little progress with LCHF may already find it is too late to fix their issues with diet alone due to too much beta cell degeneration.

LC from a T1 perspective makes it much easier to maintain relatively flat, low deviation glucose levels and hugely reduces the insulin requirement that we have. (You can use Bernstein as the scientific source for this)

If you don't stick to an 75-85% fat calories ratio, gluconeogenesis takes place and protein in the diet is used to replace glycogen, affecting the ability of the body to run purely of fat energy. Note that diabetics (t1 especially, less research for T2) are more likely to generate glycogen from protein intake so eating too much on an lchf diet is very likely to kick you out of a ketosis state.

As has been mentioned, there are hidden carbs in everything and to actually eat few enough to get in to ketosis requires planning and discipline. 30g per day is tough even when eating green veg!

That's my take on it. I think it is harder than people realise to properly go lchf and there are a number of physiological factors that you only have to be slightly wrong with to stop it working.

andcol · Mar 3, 2015

I would concur with indy and tim. If you are low carbing and your numbers will not come down then it is time to talk to your GP as you may not have enough insulin production left.

Kezzer4321 · Mar 3, 2015

Wow this is all very interesting - Thank You Daddys1 for raising it.

When I started off LCHF'ing half-heartedly - I was amazed at the results I got. My BS levels started to drop with the exception of the fasting test and I lost around a stone in weight very quickly. Once I started to take LCHF seriously and began to understand things more fully and I discovered that I now have the ability to keep my BS lower by making the correct choices. However for me, even the smallest cheat throws me off kilter – especially with the fasting test. I can go to bed fairly low and wake high – part of this I know is due to the DP – but for the most part I am coming to understand it’s what I am eating that plays the bigger part. It’s a huge eye opener when things finally click.

I think also, that it is confusing at the beginning when you start to change your eating habits - people new to LCHF they tend to go one of two ways – they eat too much of the good things like cream and butter or they eat too little. I know that I tend to underestimate the carbs in some of the foods I'm eating, especially when it comes to sauces and such. It's all about finding the right balance which is hard especially as this is different for everyone.

I think its sad that some people have taken offense at this discussion, because I personally find it all fascinating. With diabetes there seems to be no one rule that fits all – with the exception that what you eat and when you eat it, for the most part has a huge in pact. Its only by reading the experiences and sharing information that we learn. For me this site has been a lifeline and without all the questions, observations and sometime indignations… I would not have found a way that allows me to manage my diabetes.

phil1966 · Mar 3, 2015

When I started low carbing, I did it gradually - going from 100 to 50 to 30. However, it was only when I took the final step of going below 20 that I saw dramatic reductions in my readings and got them to the levels they are now.
I'd agree with what others have said that when people start they are eating more carbs than they realise - they hide everywhere

daddys1 · Mar 3, 2015

Kezzer4321 said:
Wow this is all very interesting - Thank You Daddys1 for raising it.

When I started off LCHF'ing half-heartedly - I was amazed at the results I got. My BS levels started to drop with the exception of the fasting test and I lost around a stone in weight very quickly. Once I started to take LCHF seriously and began to understand things more fully and I discovered that I now have the ability to keep my BS lower by making the correct choices. However for me, even the smallest cheat throws me off kilter – especially with the fasting test. I can go to bed fairly low and wake high – part of this I know is due to the DP – but for the most part I am coming to understand it’s what I am eating that plays the bigger part. It’s a huge eye opener when things finally click.

I think also, that it is confusing at the beginning when you start to change your eating habits - people new to LCHF they tend to go one of two ways – they eat too much of the good things like cream and butter or they eat too little. I know that I tend to underestimate the carbs in some of the foods I'm eating, especially when it comes to sauces and such. It's all about finding the right balance which is hard especially as this is different for everyone.

I think its sad that some people have taken offense at this discussion, because I personally find it all fascinating. With diabetes there seems to be no one rule that fits all – with the exception that what you eat and when you eat it, for the most part has a huge in pact. Its only by reading the experiences and sharing information that we learn. For me this site has been a lifeline and without all the questions, observations and sometime indignations… I would not have found a way that allows me to manage my diabetes.

Thank you Kezzer, I am very pleased and to some degree surprised by the number of responses. I certainly have learnt a lot .

Neil

Muggle71 · Mar 3, 2015

I still don't full understand which food falls into carb, fats, protein or whatever else. My achievement so far is by grasping the basics, I don't think too much protein is going to be a problem for me as I don't like meat much. I love eggs, but don't know if they're fat protein or carb. I limit myself to 2 slices of brown bread per day-if i have any. Other than that is been salad or hot veg. Salted nuts and babybel for snacks and heaps of water. It's such a huge learning curve and I need to make it more consistent than trial and error

Bluetit1802 · Mar 3, 2015

Muggle71 said:
I still don't full understand which food falls into carb, fats, protein or whatever else. My achievement so far is by grasping the basics, I don't think too much protein is going to be a problem for me as I don't like meat much. I love eggs, but don't know if they're fat protein or carb. I limit myself to 2 slices of brown bread per day-if i have any. Other than that is been salad or hot veg. Salted nuts and babybel for snacks and heaps of water. It's such a huge learning curve and I need to make it more consistent than trial and error

Have you bought the book people recommended - Carbs & Cals? You can't just split most foods into one group or another because most foods contain amounts of each. Meat has a lot of protein, and it also has a lot of fats, but no fibre or carbs. Eggs are a mix of protein and fats, but no carbs or fibre. Bread has carbs but also fat, protein and fibre. It is a huge learning curve, and if you have a food diary and track these nutrients, you will get there.

millysue · Mar 3, 2015

Muggle71 said:
I still don't full understand which food falls into carb, fats, protein or whatever else. My achievement so far is by grasping the basics, I don't think too much protein is going to be a problem for me as I don't like meat much. I love eggs, but don't know if they're fat protein or carb. I limit myself to 2 slices of brown bread per day-if i have any. Other than that is been salad or hot veg. Salted nuts and babybel for snacks and heaps of water. It's such a huge learning curve and I need to make it more consistent than trial and error

I bought the Carb & Cals book from Amazon.
Eggs, one egg boiled. weight 60g. 0 carbs. 88 cals. 8g protein. 6g flat
Fried egg. Weight 50g. 0 carbs. 90 cals. 7g protein. 7g fat
Poached egg. 50g. 0 carbs. 74 cals 6g protein. 5g fat

Muggle71 · Mar 3, 2015

Bluetit1802 said:
Have you bought the book people recommended - Carbs & Cals? You can't just split most foods into one group or another because most foods contain amounts of each. Meat has a lot of protein, and it also has a lot of fats, but no fibre or carbs. Eggs are a mix of protein and fats, but no carbs or fibre. Bread has carbs but also fat, protein and fibre. It is a huge learning curve, and if you have a food diary and track these nutrients, you will get there.

Thanks, i don't have that book, I will have a look on AMAZON for it. Not sure why my phone keeps making AMAZON in capitals lol.

Muggle71 · Mar 3, 2015

millysue said:
I bought the Carb & Cals book from Amazon.
Eggs, one egg boiled. weight 60g. 0 carbs. 88 cals. 8g protein. 6g flat
Fried egg. Weight 50g. 0 carbs. 90 cals. 7g protein. 7g fat
Poached egg. 50g. 0 carbs. 74 cals 6g protein. 5g fat

Ooh there's the carb and cals app for £3.99 i could get for my phone, that way it will be with me all the time

millysue · Mar 3, 2015

Muggle71 said:
I still don't full understand which food falls into carb, fats, protein or whatever else. My achievement so far is by grasping the basics, I don't think too much protein is going to be a problem for me as I don't like meat much. I love eggs, but don't know if they're fat protein or carb. I limit myself to 2 slices of brown bread per day-if i have any. Other than that is been salad or hot veg. Salted nuts and babybel for snacks and heaps of water. It's such a huge learning curve and I need to make it more consistent than trial and error

I'm looking at what I have stopped eating, which is: spuds, all root vey, all bread, cakes, crisps, ALL fruit, fish and chips, Chinese takeaways.
I used to eat lots of roasted root veg.
Now if I have cut all that out, which I have. That's got to be good. However, if that doesn't lower my bs when I go back to nurse in April I will throw in the towel. I can't live on salad for ever. I have IBS and green lettice kills me.

daddys1 · Mar 3, 2015

Muggle71 said:
I still don't full understand which food falls into carb, fats, protein or whatever else. My achievement so far is by grasping the basics, I don't think too much protein is going to be a problem for me as I don't like meat much. I love eggs, but don't know if they're fat protein or carb. I limit myself to 2 slices of brown bread per day-if i have any. Other than that is been salad or hot veg. Salted nuts and babybel for snacks and heaps of water. It's such a huge learning curve and I need to make it more consistent than trial and error

Hi Muggle,

If you get the Book 'Carbs & Cals' book http://www.ebay.co.uk/sch/i.html?_f...0&_nkw=carbs+&+calls+book&ghostText=&_sacat=0

it's about a £10.00 it gives a very simple set of over 1700 photos of individual foods on plates and tells you by sight what & how many carbs & and how many calories are in each visual portion. It's well worth it very helpful.

Eggs = protein Cheese contains both fat & Protein. The brown bread will be high in Carbs best is Hovis seed sensations, there are 2 so get the right one at 13 carbs per slice, or Bergen Linseed & Soya bread same for carbs.

Ordinary brown bread may be 20 to 25 carbs per slice.
Even on my seed sensations I can only mange one slice at a time or I will spike, and I am officially out of the diabetes range.
Hope this helps
Neil

Muggle71 · Mar 3, 2015

I think I'd feel the same millysue. It's such a drastic change and to sustain it without it helping your bg then I'd be inclined to think what's the blinking point! Ive cut out pretty much the same as you except for the bread...im chewing this gum wishing it was willy wonkas, the kind that gives you a 3 course meal flavour as you chew lol

Muggle71 · Mar 3, 2015

daddys1 said:
Hi Muggle,

If you get the Book 'Carbs & Cals' book http://www.ebay.co.uk/sch/i.html?_f...0&_nkw=carbs+&+calls+book&ghostText=&_sacat=0

it's about a £10.00 it gives a very simple set of over 1700 photos of individual foods on plates and tells you by sight what & how many carbs & and how many calories are in each visual portion. It's well worth it very helpful.

Eggs = protein Cheese contains both fat & Protein. The brown bread will be high in Carbs best is Hovis seed sensations, there are 2 so get the right one at 13 carbs per slice, or Bergen Linseed & Soya bread same for carbs.

Ordinary brown bread may be 20 to 25 carbs per slice.
Even on my seed sensations I can only mange one slice at a time or I will spike, and I am officially out of the diabetes range.
Hope this helps
Neil

Just bought the app for my iPhone. Hope that's as good

lovinglife · Mar 3, 2015

Indy51 said:
Nobody seems to have mentioned beta cell damage - if the damage is permanent, LCHF by itself may not be enough, even if the person is being completely compliant with the diet. I really get uncomfortable with pointing the finger at people and saying "you must be doing it wrong". What if they're doing it right and it's still not working?

This is me exactly - as you see in my sig I had a high A1c at diagnosis and feel I probably been undiagnosed for about 4 years. I was on max meds at the start and I have now reduced as far as I can. I did try for a few weeks without gliclizide at all and very low carb and made my diverticulitis worse to the point of avoiding an op by the skin of my teeth and my bs gradually begun to rise and weight gain

I am happy to use a small dose of gliclizide that keeps my A1c below 6 along with about 90g carb a day rather than very low carb and a A1c in the high 6s. Sometimes on here I do feel that the impression is given that if you extreme low carb you won't need the meds sadly it's not always the case and we have to decide personally what we are happy with. There is no shame in taking meds if you need them

Why when newbies arrive with very high BS 20+ and go onto a Very Low Carb Diet

Master

Expert

BANNED

BANNED

Expert

Expert

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Legend

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Moderator

Privacy & Transparency

Privacy & Transparency