Why when newbies arrive with very high BS 20+ and go onto a Very Low Carb Diet

I'm going back to the question of why we are different and where does the glycogen the liver keeps dumping is coming from. The biochemistry is very complex and at the simplest level (A level ) would have my students complaining it was doing their head in. There are all sorts of links between the pathways. e.g. if we eat more protein than we need the liver deals with excess by converting the nitrogenous part into urea, this gets extracted by the kidney and excreted as urine. But the liver it retains the non-nitrogenous part and converts it to glycogen. There are lots of other interlinkages.

If anyone wants more information the Khan Academy is good

http://www.khanacademy.org/test-pre...ive-phosphorylation/v/krebs-citric-acid-cycle

follow on with fat and protein metabolism, the link for which is at the bottom left of the first page .

But if you look at the first page and don't understand a word, don't worry, this really is difficult stuff. The bottom line is that the body has so many interlinking pathways that virtually anything is possible!

I wrote this in another post and think it deserves a place in this thread too:-

I don't think that all Type2 diabetics are created equal. Some have other conditions to contend with, some have eating disorders, some have mobility problems, depression, too much stress etc...., some have more insulin resistance than others, some have more or less weight to lose than others, some can try as hard as they might and still be envious of other people's levels. You just have to do the best you can and keep telling yourself that this is not a competition. Numbers should not not be classesd as good or bad but help to educate us as to our food choices and other reasons that influence our numbers.

catherinecherub said:

I wrote this in another post and think it deserves a place in this thread too:-

I don't think that all Type2 diabetics are created equal. Some have other conditions to contend with, some have eating disorders, some have mobility problems, depression, too much stress etc...., some have more insulin resistance than others, some have more or less weight to lose than others, some can try as hard as they might and still be envious of other people's levels. You just have to do the best you can and keep telling yourself that this is not a competition. Numbers should not not be classesd as good or bad but help to educate us as to our food choices and other reasons that influence our numbers.

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Indeed, it is about getting healthier by the means that best suits us. 100% right.

daddys1 said:

Hi Ali,
I havn't got an answer for you, only to say I have looked at your profile and see you are a Type 2 but Insulin controlled. The theory so I understand is, if you are down to 30/40 carbs a day you should be in Ketosis which is when your body uses Ketones for energy i.e. your body will convert the fat in your body to ketones. I'm not sure of the science but I would imagine if you are Insulin controlled does that not allow you to eat carbs in moderation? if you have reduced carbs do they match the insulin.
Are you exercising at all?
Neil

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Yeah well apparently I should be consuming myself but, hey ho, nope!! I use MFP and Endomondo to log everything, I weigh my food etc to ensure accuracy but still, zip, zilch, nada! Yes I inject 5 times a day and I carb count, my ratios have worsened on low carb, ie the insulin resistance has got worse. I walk regularly, I try to do at least 30 minutes a day. Slipped disc prevents me doing gym stuff, swimming etc, walking or kayaking is about all I can do without causing mucho paino.

Ali

catherinecherub said:

I wrote this in another post and think it deserves a place in this thread too:-

I don't think that all Type2 diabetics are created equal. Some have other conditions to contend with, some have eating disorders, some have mobility problems, depression, too much stress etc...., some have more insulin resistance than others, some have more or less weight to lose than others, some can try as hard as they might and still be envious of other people's levels. You just have to do the best you can and keep telling yourself that this is not a competition. Numbers should not not be classesd as good or bad but help to educate us as to our food choices and other reasons that influence our numbers.

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So true , it is back to us all being individuals and sometimes complex individuals ....we don't all have perfect control , but we all have a level which is right for us the individual ... I hate to feel that people have to compete , it is not a competition totally agree with Catherine ...

I agree, we are all complex individuals but we also have huge similarities, diabetes being one. Decreasing carbs means lower BG levels for all. Show me a single diabetic who has achieved better control by eating more carbs ? No, we're not perfect either but we ought to strive to maintain the best control we can. It is a competition of one. I compete with my meter.

dannyw said:

I agree, we are all complex individuals but we also have huge similarities, diabetes being one. Decreasing carbs means lower BG levels for all. Show me a single diabetic who has achieved better control by eating more carbs ? No, we're not perfect either but we ought to strive to maintain the best control we can. It is a competition of one. I compete with my meter.

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.... and I compete with myself, always have. Setting one's own personal targets and meeting them (whatever level they may be) by eating to our meters is what it's all about as far as I am concerned.

Kezzer4321 said:

@millysue - why are you being a defeatist. Instead of looking at what you cant eat - look at what you can . For example - why not check our the LCHF recipe section. I use the cauli-mash instead of normal mash - and its fantastic on a shepherds pie. You can eat all types of meet - you can eat fruit but in moderation - most people seem to stick to anything with berry in, ie, raspberries, strawberries, blackberries. I am not a lover of salad (as in lettuce) but I eat lots of other things in my salad and only ever have it for lunch. I have learnt how to make crustless quiches - which there are no end of varieties. There are lots of people on hear who follow their own version of LCHF - a lot of people still have takeaways, chinese, indian and even fish and chips - but they have it in moderation. You dont have to live on salad you just need to experiment more. You can still have your cake and eat it... look at all the fabulous LCHF recipes there are for sweet things.

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Well said! My only problems these days as a low carb vegetarian seems to be deciding what to eat as I am spoiled for choice There has never been a better time to low carb. The internet is heaving with recipes.

catherinecherub said:

I wrote this in another post and think it deserves a place in this thread too:-

I don't think that all Type2 diabetics are created equal. Some have other conditions to contend with, some have eating disorders, some have mobility problems, depression, too much stress etc...., some have more insulin resistance than others, some have more or less weight to lose than others, some can try as hard as they might and still be envious of other people's levels. You just have to do the best you can and keep telling yourself that this is not a competition. Numbers should not not be classesd as good or bad but help to educate us as to our food choices and other reasons that influence our numbers.

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I don't think people are all created equal, never mind diabetics, but that doesn't stop me being competitive and striving for the best I can be. I will, and would never win the Olympic 100m gold medal, but that pesky little detail would never, ever have stopped me running as hard and fast as I could in any race I entered in my life. If I were racing FloJo, I'd still have had an objective id bust a gut to achieve.

In life, I'm an achiever, but I have some perspective on my limitations, and therefore set my personal objectives accordingly. It works well for me.

I'm one of those people who believes the demise of competitive sports, in schools is a crime against our children. Everyone, and I mean everyone has to experience success and at least as importantly, failure in order to make the best of themselves. Cosseting people, and particularly children, into an "good enough" perspective is very damaging and also leads to a culture of "entitlement". But that's a whole new, mega, humongous can of worms I'm lifting the lid on there.

sally and james said:

Almost everything we eat is home made and I like to think I have a good understanding of food and nutrition, so there were very few mistakes and slip ups when we went low carb.. Perhaps this is why, in my husband's case, his blood sugars DID fall very rapidly indeed, after starting low carb. I'm inclined to agree with @Bluetit1802 , if your numbers don't fall, the carbs must be creeping in somehow.
Sally

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I can't agree with this. There are too many variables in us all to reduce numbers at the same rate, and there are many medical reasons (or scientific reasons if you prefer) why people's BG can stay higher than they could be.
if it was really as simple as you make it sound then none of us would be having problems.

daddys1 said:

On a more serious note, I have asked the question because I feel or think the same as you, that often people are just not doing it right, even though they may think they are and often fooling themselves.

I must say, I had not thought of some of the points you raise, like "aren't testing at the right times, not enough water, other medications, or incorrect diabetic medication doses" & "eating irregularly, missing meals, too many treats".

I personally feel it's still people taking in the carbs through whatever method, but I am hoping someone does come up with a scientific reason. It's just when you are giving people advice and it appears nothing is really working you do wonder what is happening.

Thanks Bluetit

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The advice generally given on the forum is, I feel, good. But there are always people that have other health issues that affect them in various ways, and they need more detailed help and advice from medically trained people.

rowan said:

I can't agree with this. There are too many variables in us all to reduce numbers at the same rate, and there are many medical reasons (or scientific reasons if you prefer) why people's BG can stay higher than they could be.
if it was really as simple as you make it sound then none of us would be having problems.

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What choice do we have though? The NHS won't be giving us any fancy tests if they can avoid it. If we try our very best with diet and exercise, as James appears to have done, and it still doesn't work, we might be able to argue a case for testing beta cells or whatever. The NHS isn't that interested in my opinion.

rowan said:

I can't agree with this. There are too many variables in us all to reduce numbers at the same rate, and there are many medical reasons (or scientific reasons if you prefer) why people's BG can stay higher than they could be.
if it was really as simple as you make it sound then none of us would be having problems.

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Blood sugars will not drop at exactly the same rate in everyone, as Rowan says, there are many variables. But, if pre-breakfast your BS is 20 and you then have muesli and orange juice, the next test could well be 25. However, if you have a simple poached egg and a black coffee, there should be little, if any increase. As long as you don't snack during the morning, your pre-lunch reading could be 18. A modest decrease. Of course, if you are producing virtually no insulin, are ill or suffer some trauma mid morning, you may well not get this decrease. But if you are a "bog standard" Type 2 on a normal day, as long as you don't ingest any sugars beyond the unavoidable minimum, there should be a general, but possibly wobbly, drift downwards in your levels.

What concerns me, is when someone who is T2, says that their BS was 15, but then jumped to 30, despite being low carb. Something is wrong here and one possibility is always a misunderstanding of what they have eaten. It has alarmed over the time I have been on this forum, how much ignorance there is about food, cooking and ingredients. Before I start getting hate mail, I should say that I don't blame the individuals. I suspect that the days are long gone, since girls (and it was only the girls) were taught, in school how to make nutritious family meals, from unprocessed ingredients. If you know how to cook, you know what is in your food and this is a great start to health.
Sally

Lol Sally, dunno when you went to school but we had boys and girls in Home Economics classes!!!

Ali

Ali H said:

Lol Sally, dunno when you went to school but we had boys and girls in Home Economics classes!!!

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I'm pleased to hear it. The boys had to do woodwork when I was young.
Sally

Avocado Sevenfold said:

What choice do we have though? The NHS won't be giving us any fancy tests if they can avoid it. If we try our very best with diet and exercise, as James appears to have done, and it still doesn't work, we might be able to argue a case for testing beta cells or whatever. The NHS isn't that interested in my opinion.

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I don't understand your reply, my reply was in response to the statement:
"I'm inclined to agree with @@Bluetit1802 , if your numbers don't fall, the carbs must be creeping in somehow."
There are too many variables to blame it all on people 'not doing it right'.

sally and james said:

What concerns me, is when someone who is T2, says that their BS was 15, but then jumped to 30, despite being low carb. Something is wrong here and one possibility is always a misunderstanding of what they have eaten. It has alarmed over the time I have been on this forum, how much ignorance there is about food, cooking and ingredients. Before I start getting hate mail, I should say that I don't blame the individuals. I suspect that the days are long gone, since girls (and it was only the girls) were taught, in school how to make nutritious family meals, from unprocessed ingredients. If you know how to cook, you know what is in your food and this is a great start to health.
Sally

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This happened to me all the time. Example, this afternoon I was 8.2, I had 2 crispbreads (13.4g carbs) with butter and cheese and a green tea, nothing else, and an hour later I'm 15.9.
Last night I had a prawn stir fry, no-carb noodles, veg 9g carbs, no stir fry sauce, just a little soy sauce. I went from 8.9 to 19.8 in an hour! An hour later I'm back down to 10.1, then an hour after that 8.4. Yes if course there's definitely something wrong there, but there's no misunderstanding in what I ate.

I learnt nutrition in Doemstic Science at school and altough I'yv not alwasy stuck to it in the past I do know what's what.

I eat pretty much the same sort of thing most days, no processed ready meals, and I'm not experimenting with foods I'm not sure about until my levels stabilise, but at the moment they're all over the place. And it's not becasue I'm doing it wrong, and I'm sure I'm not the only person on here who is struggling. And having people insist that if you're doing it right your levels will go down is not helpful, it's not always that simple.

Ali H said:

Lol Sally, dunno when you went to school but we had boys and girls in Home Economics classes!!!

Ali

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We had one boy in our domestic science class and he was teased mercilessly by all the other boys who were doing woodwork instead. That was in the mid - late 60s

Ali H said:

Lol Sally, dunno when you went to school but we had boys and girls in Home Economics classes!!!

Ali

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There weren't even any boys in my school