Type 2 Is it ok to have a spike from carbs once day if levels are good the rest of the day?

pleinster

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Hi. this may sound really daft....but I'm new to this low carb stuff. I was diagnosed with Type 2 after steroid treatment and anti-rejection drugs following a kidney transplant. I advised my doctor that I was coming off Gliclazide as it was having no real effect (levels ranging from 8.5-15)..and doubling it had had no effect either.I followed advice on this site and general research and checked my blood more than I had been told to. I also kept a food diary. As a result - I avoid bread, cereals, and most carbs... and my levels have dropped mostly into the normalish range. i am worried that I'm not eating enough carbs now and have been experimenting..unsuccessfully as a couple of hours after eating whatever...a bagel, toast, chips, ryvita...etc...etc....whenever I eat it, my levels go up. So I was hoping someone could reassure me that I really can keep my carbs to a minimum or that its not really a big issue if my levels are ok (eg. between 5.2 and 7.5) and I have one blast of carbs once a day (going up to maybe 10 or 12)? It always comes down again. too many carbs and - boing....high levels all day. Sorry - that's a bloody short story not a question! ANY ADVICE APPRECIATED. please.
 

Indy51

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I guess my question is why you still think you need carbs at all, apart from low carb vegetables? Are you having any issues at all with low carb that you aren't telling us about? I've been happily healthy on low carb for over 3 years, so I don't consider I'm suffering from any kind of carbohydrate deficiency - because there's really no such thing.

If you want to eat carbs just because, well the choice of the spikes is entirely yours. There seem to be varying views on the dangers or otherwise of spikes - some say that spending long times at high levels is more dangerous for damage from glucotoxicity, while others say it's high spikes that cause damage and keeping nice stable levels is a much better management strategy. Personally, I prefer to keep as steady as I can (which isn't all that easy when you add unexpected liver dumps into the mix).

Only you can really decide.
 
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pleinster

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I guess my question is why you still think you need carbs at all, apart from low carb vegetables? Are you having any issues at all with low carb that you aren't telling us about? I've been happily healthy on low carb for over 3 years, so I don't consider I'm suffering from any kind of carbohydrate deficiency - because there's really no such thing.

If you want to eat carbs just because, well the choice of the spikes is entirely yours. There seem to be varying views on the dangers or otherwise of spikes - some say that spending long times at high levels is more dangerous for damage from glucotoxicity, while others say it's high spikes that cause damage and keeping nice stable levels is a much better management strategy. Personally, I prefer to keep as steady as I can (which isn't all that easy when you add unexpected liver dumps into the mix).

Only you can really decide.

Thanks, Indy. That was helpful...i am encouraged by your question about why I think I need carbs at all. I guess I just don't know enough about it...an coz Im eating so few carbs I am worrying that that's not enough just for general health. I'm not following any particular diet..I'm just not eating much by way of carbs at all. Hey, if it's not a problem really...then I can definitely live without them and keep reasonably decent levels. So - just low carb veggies is enough? really helpful, pal...thanks.
 
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Robbity

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I'd be asking the same questions as @Indy51 regarding carbs. If you are eating a lower carb diet then all you need to do is make sure you're replacing the reduced carbs with some extra fat for energy.

If you choose to add more starchy carbs back into your diet then it's really up to you what you'd find acceptable. The NICE guidelines for pre and post meal glucose levels can be found here, so as a type 2 you would ideally would by looking at a maximum post meal level of 8.5 mmol/L, and a maximum rise of 2 mmol/L from your pre meal reading. So use these figures as a reference.

I personally prefer not to see any spikes at all if possible - since I'm diabetic because my body no longer handles carbs very well, I don't really see any good reason to force it to cope with them. So I just eat a variety of low carb veggies and a little fruit, which don't normally cause it any grief.

So my advice is - you've done well and managed to get your levels down to where they're not llkely to cause you damage, so why go and spoil what you've got going for you!

Robbity
 
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pleinster

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I'd be asking the same questions as @Indy51 regarding carbs. If you are eating a lower carb diet then all you need to do is make sure you're replacing the reduced carbs with some extra fat for energy.

If you choose to add more starchy carbs back into your diet then it's really up to you what you'd find acceptable. The NICE guidelines for pre and post meal glucose levels can be found here, so as a type 2 you would ideally would by looking at a maximum post meal level of 8.5 mmol/L, and a maximum rise of 2 mmol/L from your pre meal reading. So use these figures as a reference.

I personally prefer not to see any spikes at all if possible - since I'm diabetic because my body no longer handles carbs very well, I don't really see any good reason to force it to cope with them. So I just eat a variety of low carb veggies and a little fruit, which don't normally cause it any grief.

So my advice is - you've done well and managed to get your levels down to where they're not llkely to cause you damage, so why go and spoil what you've got going for you!

Robbity

Thanks, Robbity. That is so helpful and encouraging. This forum is going to be so useful. I really appreciate you responding.
 

runner2009

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I guess my question is why you still think you need carbs at all, apart from low carb vegetables?

@Indy51

I agree with, but as I've been 4-weeks into the NC diet- trying to lose weight from the HF part of the LCHF diet of come on some interesting discovery.

Let's say I ate 300 calories of cabbage for my NC diet dinner ( which I've done )that would be almost 75g of carbs with less than half making up fiber.

My BG spiked to 114 an hour after eating and back to 87 2 hours later.

I guess my point is I'm frikin hungry. (-%

No, you can eat carbs and a lot as long as they have lots of fiber and are not calorie dense.
 
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Indy51

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@Indy51

I agree with, but as I've been 4-weeks into the NC diet- trying to lose weight from the HF part of the LCHF diet of come on some interesting discovery.

Let's say I ate 300 calories of cabbage for my NC diet dinner ( which I've done )that would be almost 75g of carbs with less than half making up fiber.

My BG spiked to 114 an hour after eating and back to 87 2 hours later.

I guess my point is I'm frikin hungry. (-%

No, you can eat carbs and a lot as long as they have lots of fiber and are not calorie dense.
How on earth could you eat that much cabbage? According to the Australian Calorie King website, even 500g of cooked cabbage is only 110 calories. It's also net carbs 12g plus 12g fibre, so 24g total carbs. The idea of eating around 1500g of cabbage sounds positively undoable to me :(
 
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runner2009

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How on earth could you eat that much cabbage? According to the Australian Calorie King website, even 500g of cooked cabbage is only 110 calories. It's also net carbs 12g plus 12g fibre, so 24g total carbs. The idea of eating around 1500g of cabbage sounds positively undoable to me :(
Have you ever been 4-weeks into the New Castle Diet? Actually cabbage taste like filet mignon after awhile.

One good thing about overindulging on cabbage, you eat an extra head or two and its only 50calories. An extra piece of cake well that's another story
 
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Indy51

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Have you ever been 4-weeks into the New Castle Diet? Actually cabbage taste like filet mignon after awhile.

One good thing about overindulging on cabbage, you eat an extra head or two and its only 50calories. An extra piece of cake well that's another story

LOL, no, I never tried the Newcastle Diet because I couldn't handle the idea of all the fake ingredients in the shakes and I thought eating a real food version would be the equivalent of torture. Intermittent fasting seems to suit my personality better.
 
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AndBreathe

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Hi. this may sound really daft....but I'm new to this low carb stuff. I was diagnosed with Type 2 after steroid treatment and anti-rejection drugs following a kidney transplant. I advised my doctor that I was coming off Gliclazide as it was having no real effect (levels ranging from 8.5-15)..and doubling it had had no effect either.I followed advice on this site and general research and checked my blood more than I had been told to. I also kept a food diary. As a result - I avoid bread, cereals, and most carbs... and my levels have dropped mostly into the normalish range. i am worried that I'm not eating enough carbs now and have been experimenting..unsuccessfully as a couple of hours after eating whatever...a bagel, toast, chips, ryvita...etc...etc....whenever I eat it, my levels go up. So I was hoping someone could reassure me that I really can keep my carbs to a minimum or that its not really a big issue if my levels are ok (eg. between 5.2 and 7.5) and I have one blast of carbs once a day (going up to maybe 10 or 12)? It always comes down again. too many carbs and - boing....high levels all day. Sorry - that's a bloody short story not a question! ANY ADVICE APPRECIATED. please.

You talk about rising to 10-12 after carbs, but that only gives me a part of the story. At what point, after eating, are you measuring the 10-12? If it was 45 minutes, say, I might have a different view to if it was 2 hours. In returning those scores, have you tried eating the same foods two days in a row, and measuring both days?

There could be a certain amount of enzyme lag in play; meaning if your body wasn't expecting a carb hit, your reading could have been higher than if you repeated the exercise. If you read about "last meal effect", you will find more detail.

Personally, I don't like spikes much, and since undertaking lots of testing, dietary modifications and trimming up to become very slight, I don't really see spikes any more, and those I do see resolve themselves very rapidly. For me, I view these things from a bit of a package perspective.
 
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uart

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i am encouraged by your question about why I think I need carbs at all. I guess I just don't know enough about it...an coz Im eating so few carbs I am worrying that that's not enough just for general health. I'm not following any particular diet.
Hi Pleinster. Take a look over at the low carb sub-forum here. You'll find plenty of information there, and there are lots of low carb ideas and recipes exchanged as well.

Yes low (and maybe some medium) carb veggies can easily provide all the carbs you need. I eat lots of low carb veggies and a small to moderate amount of medium carb ones (carrots onion and peas for example), but very little of grain and high carb veggies. As runner2009 said, the relatively low nutritional density and high fibre content of most of these vegetables really limits their effect on BG levels.

Personally I like to balance the high fibre and low nutritional density of the low carb vegetables with a reasonably high amount of fat (cheese, butter olive oil etc) to balance out the loss of high density calories that I no longer get from grains etc. This diet seems to give me the best overall combination of BG control, reasonable weight management and enjoyment of my food (the last of which should never be underestimated as it's a huge factor in being able to stick with a diet long term). :)
 
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pleinster

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@Indy51

I agree with, but as I've been 4-weeks into the NC diet- trying to lose weight from the HF part of the LCHF diet of come on some interesting discovery.

Let's say I ate 300 calories of cabbage for my NC diet dinner ( which I've done )that would be almost 75g of carbs with less than half making up fiber.

My BG spiked to 114 an hour after eating and back to 87 2 hours later.

I guess my point is I'm frikin hungry. (-%

No, you can eat carbs and a lot as long as they have lots of fiber and are not calorie dense.

Nice to know....Thanks for that..it all helps me get a better understanding so I can plan what the hell Im doing.
 

pleinster

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You talk about rising to 10-12 after carbs, but that only gives me a part of the story. At what point, after eating, are you measuring the 10-12? If it was 45 minutes, say, I might have a different view to if it was 2 hours. In returning those scores, have you tried eating the same foods two days in a row, and measuring both days?

There could be a certain amount of enzyme lag in play; meaning if your body wasn't expecting a carb hit, your reading could have been higher than if you repeated the exercise. If you read about "last meal effect", you will find more detail.

Personally, I don't like spikes much, and since undertaking lots of testing, dietary modifications and trimming up to become very slight, I don't really see spikes any more, and those I do see resolve themselves very rapidly. For me, I view these things from a bit of a package perspective.

More help - great! Thanks. With very little carbs (ie. whatever is in a bit of chicken, salad, avacados an the like.. and maybe some wafer biscuits...), I was starting the day at about 6.5 and it didn't really go up above 7.2 or so, coming down nicely in late evenings to maybe 5.2 or so. Trying to add a few more carbs (coz I was worrying it wasn't enough) put the start point up a wee bit , and the higher readings (10-12) came 2-3 hours after eating (weetabix, chips..stuff I was trying out). If I don't need to eat them, I won't , but Im unsure of what to replace them with (specifically) if I need to. the one complication is that I have a wee spike a couple of hours after breakfast due to a particular steroid I am on due to transplant...but..with less carbs that figure is also less high. I shall certainly take your advice and try the same thing a couple of times at the same times to see if there's a difference. thanks so much.
 

pleinster

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Hi Pleinster. Take a look over at the low carb sub-forum here. You'll find plenty of information there, and there are lots of low carb ideas and recipes exchanged as well.

Yes low (and maybe some medium) carb veggies can easily provide all the carbs you need. I eat lots of low carb veggies and a small to moderate amount of medium carb ones (carrots onion and peas for example), but very little of grain and high carb veggies. As runner2009 said, the relatively low nutritional density and high fibre content of most of these vegetables really limits their effect on BG levels.

Personally I like to balance the high fibre and low nutritional density of the low carb vegetables with a reasonably high amount of fat (cheese, butter olive oil etc) to balance out the loss of high density calories that I no longer get from grains etc. This diet seems to give me the best overall combination of BG control, reasonable weight management and enjoyment of my food (the last of which should never be underestimated as it's a huge factor in being able to stick with a diet long term). :)

Thanks for that...very reassuring. I'm so glad to know that I don't need to worry about carb intake if I'm eating low carb veggies. I am also eating a fair bit of cheese (mainly smoked) but maybe need to up the fat a bit...really helpful..much appreciated. I shall certainly check out all the available stuff on the low-carb sub forum. brilliant.
 

Daphne917

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Thanks for that...very reassuring. I'm so glad to know that I don't need to worry about carb intake if I'm eating low carb veggies. I am also eating a fair bit of cheese (mainly smoked) but maybe need to up the fat a bit...really helpful..much appreciated. I shall certainly check out all the available stuff on the low-carb sub forum. brilliant.
Hi @pleinster if you haven't done so already one way of upping your fat intake is by eating full fat as opposed to low fat foods such as milk, butter and yoghurt. A lot of people here also have cream in their coffee instead of milk.
 

AndBreathe

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More help - great! Thanks. With very little carbs (ie. whatever is in a bit of chicken, salad, avacados an the like.. and maybe some wafer biscuits...), I was starting the day at about 6.5 and it didn't really go up above 7.2 or so, coming down nicely in late evenings to maybe 5.2 or so. Trying to add a few more carbs (coz I was worrying it wasn't enough) put the start point up a wee bit , and the higher readings (10-12) came 2-3 hours after eating (weetabix, chips..stuff I was trying out). If I don't need to eat them, I won't , but Im unsure of what to replace them with (specifically) if I need to. the one complication is that I have a wee spike a couple of hours after breakfast due to a particular steroid I am on due to transplant...but..with less carbs that figure is also less high. I shall certainly take your advice and try the same thing a couple of times at the same times to see if there's a difference. thanks so much.

At 2-3 hours after eating, I, personally, for me, wouldn't be happy to see a 10-12 - especially not on anything like a regular basis. High days and holidays could be argued, but never on a day to day basis, for me. Thankfully, I just don't see those numbers any more.

As others have said, there isn't any nutritional need to eat carbs, but I do accept they can be very yummy, and can make eating out easier, but those are the tolerances we each have to work out for ourselves, in terms of the bigger picture.

Many people find they handle carbs better at differing times of the day, with earlier in the day being commonly tricky. It's almost like whatever functionality many of us have to cope with carbs, it takes a bit longer to "wake up" than we would like. I appreciate when you are then compounding the situation with the impact of a necessary drug, it must be doubly frustrating. In your shoes, I might consider a couple of things:

Firstly, I would consider if I could cut myself a deal whereby I really cut the early carbs, but having scrambled eggs, or bacon or whatever for breakfast, so minimise the impact of the morning steroid, and see what that does. When my blood numbers were moderating, I found that my numbers came down in notches, as opposed to a gentle slope, and in line with that, I found that as my morning numbers notched down, so did the balance of the day. So, it was almost as if my morning numbers set the scene for the rest of my day. I hope that makes sense?

Secondly, if you do feel you are more insulin resistant (to your own, naturally produced insulin) in the mornings, I would consider discussing the timing of my steroid drug, to see if it could be taken at a different time of the day when it might be kinder to your bloods. Obviously, this is something to seek medical guidance on, as steroids are tricky things.

And thirdly, if your morning readings are markedly higher than your others, perhaps there is a tweak to your medication; perhaps even something different for the mornings, which could bring those into line. I completely appreciate you may want to take as few drugs as you can get away with, but it's also critical you protect your new kidney and all your other organs.

My father was an IV steroid induce diabetic in the latter stage of his life, so I can appreciate your frustration, but sometimes we get a bit of a package deal of conditions, as opposed to something in isolation. His illness was very different from your own, so I wouldn't like to draw too many parallels.

Good luck with it all.
 
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Celeriac

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@pleinster I don't consider myself to be on a diet, for me LCHF (Low Carb High Fat) is a way of eating.

My reason for eating LCHF is to remove the processed carbs, high starch vegetables and high-fructose fruit which send my nlood glucose up, with foods that don't.

Carbohydrates aren't essential to life. Essential proteins, fatty acids, vitamins, minerals and water ARE.

I made a list of the nutrients in the food I was giving up and then used Google to find articles on good alternative sources.

For example ditching a lot of fruit and potatoes could make you worry about vitamin C but red and green bell peppers, red chilli peppers, Brussels sprouts, cabbage, lemons, broccoli and strawberries are all lower carb sources of vitamin C, for example.

It may take a bit of time but as long as you make a note to refer to somehow, you only need do it once.
 
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SamJB

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As a rough guide, one high per day will give you an HbA1C in the 7s, one every few days will give an HbA1c in the 6s, every few weeks in the 5s.

In the 7s is ok. At a moderate risk of complications, not a high risk, but not a low risk either.
 
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pleinster

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At 2-3 hours after eating, I, personally, for me, wouldn't be happy to see a 10-12 - especially not on anything like a regular basis. High days and holidays could be argued, but never on a day to day basis, for me. Thankfully, I just don't see those numbers any more.

As others have said, there isn't any nutritional need to eat carbs, but I do accept they can be very yummy, and can make eating out easier, but those are the tolerances we each have to work out for ourselves, in terms of the bigger picture.

Many people find they handle carbs better at differing times of the day, with earlier in the day being commonly tricky. It's almost like whatever functionality many of us have to cope with carbs, it takes a bit longer to "wake up" than we would like. I appreciate when you are then compounding the situation with the impact of a necessary drug, it must be doubly frustrating. In your shoes, I might consider a couple of things:

Firstly, I would consider if I could cut myself a deal whereby I really cut the early carbs, but having scrambled eggs, or bacon or whatever for breakfast, so minimise the impact of the morning steroid, and see what that does. When my blood numbers were moderating, I found that my numbers came down in notches, as opposed to a gentle slope, and in line with that, I found that as my morning numbers notched down, so did the balance of the day. So, it was almost as if my morning numbers set the scene for the rest of my day. I hope that makes sense?

Secondly, if you do feel you are more insulin resistant (to your own, naturally produced insulin) in the mornings, I would consider discussing the timing of my steroid drug, to see if it could be taken at a different time of the day when it might be kinder to your bloods. Obviously, this is something to seek medical guidance on, as steroids are tricky things.

And thirdly, if your morning readings are markedly higher than your others, perhaps there is a tweak to your medication; perhaps even something different for the mornings, which could bring those into line. I completely appreciate you may want to take as few drugs as you can get away with, but it's also critical you protect your new kidney and all your other organs.

My father was an IV steroid induce diabetic in the latter stage of his life, so I can appreciate your frustration, but sometimes we get a bit of a package deal of conditions, as opposed to something in isolation. His illness was very different from your own, so I wouldn't like to draw too many parallels.

Good luck with it all.

Thanks for all of that sound advice. i'm not happy about anything above 8.5 but unless I cut the carbs right down...it's what happens. i get what your'e saying about the numbers dropping in notches and the morning numbers setting the balance of the day...generally morning readings are ok (6.5-7.5) and I take my steroids after that reading. Carb control is helping reduce the spike following meds, but I may consider asking about halving the dose and taking it twice a day if there's no marked improvement. Unfortunately, my doctor is less than convinced that I am doing the right thing by checking my levels so regularly, and that I've stopped my Gliclazide, but this is due largely to him having the default position that none of us have our own intelligence Thanks. Really appreciated.
 

pleinster

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@pleinster I don't consider myself to be on a diet, for me LCHF (Low Carb High Fat) is a way of eating.

My reason for eating LCHF is to remove the processed carbs, high starch vegetables and high-fructose fruit which send my nlood glucose up, with foods that don't.

Carbohydrates aren't essential to life. Essential proteins, fatty acids, vitamins, minerals and water ARE.

I made a list of the nutrients in the food I was giving up and then used Google to find articles on good alternative sources.

For example ditching a lot of fruit and potatoes could make you worry about vitamin C but red and green bell peppers, red chilli peppers, Brussels sprouts, cabbage, lemons, broccoli and strawberries are all lower carb sources of vitamin C, for example.

It may take a bit of time but as long as you make a note to refer to somehow, you only need do it once.

Thanks, Celeriac. All useful...and I am reassured particularly by your comment that carbs are not essential to life. looking forward to strawberries!