Dawn phenomenon

[cmor16]

I have a couple of queries about this.

My readings are nearly always normal except first thing in the morning. Some people have suggested a carb snack before bed but I have just been reading up on this and everything points to NOT having carbs before bed? Can anyone clarify this please?

When I was "diagnosed" (the doc just said my sugar was a bit high) this was following a routine fasting blood test, so I'm wondering if, as I've read that non-diabetic people can have the dawn phenomenon, I am in fact pre-diabetic at all? There is obviously some kind of issue though so even if this is the case I will continue the way I'm going on with low carb & fasting...I'm just a bit curious!

 

[dbr10]

I have a couple of queries about this.

My readings are nearly always normal except first thing in the morning. Some people have suggested a carb snack before bed but I have just been reading up on this and everything points to NOT having carbs before bed? Can anyone clarify this please?

When I was "diagnosed" (the doc just said my sugar was a bit high) this was following a routine fasting blood test, so I'm wondering if, as I've read that non-diabetic people can have the dawn phenomenon, I am in fact pre-diabetic at all? There is obviously some kind of issue though so even if this is the case I will continue the way I'm going on with low carb & fasting...I'm just a bit curious!

Did you actually have an Hba1c blood test or Oral Glucose tolerance test at all?

Some people here do find that a small low carb snack at night, of nuts or cheese, for example does help with the liver dumping glucose during the night.

I think you need to find out exactly what your results were. Doctor was too vague.

 

[cmor16]

Did you actually have an Hba1c blood test or Oral Glucose tolerance test at all?

Some people here do find that a small low carb snack at night, of nuts or cheese, for example does help with the liver dumping glucose during the night.

I think you need to find out exactly what your results were. Doctor was too vague.

No I didn't. As I say, it was just a routine blood test but she gave me a print out and my BG was 6.4. She remarked that it was a little high and suggested I lost a bit of weight. But I did a bit of googling and found that 6.4 puts me in the pre-diabetes category.

Re the low carb snack, it actually says on this very website to avoid carbs before bed...I'm confused!

 

[Fenn]

In my non medical, uneducated opinion, if I were you, I would not be eating anything you are not hungry for, especially if you are trying to lose weight, consider your “diagnosis” as a wake up call, try to eat yourself into a healthier lifestyle, but don’t fret about things like DP

 

[dbr10]

No I didn't. As I say, it was just a routine blood test but she gave me a print out and my BG was 6.4. She remarked that it was a little high and suggested I lost a bit of weight. But I did a bit of googling and found that 6.4 puts me in the pre-diabetes category.

Re the low carb snack, it actually says on this very website to avoid carbs before bed...I'm confused!

I'm surprised by that. Lots of people on here will give you suggestions.

 

[Kittylitter]

The last few days my morning readings have been 6.5 - I have not been diagnosed with pre-diabetes as yet - I was 1 point away (41) on my hb thingy test at the doctors, yet they did not say anything and I took the print-out home as they gave it to me to show I was anaemic, I later went through the results and found the results to be nearly pre-diabetic and made 2 appointments to see GP's to ask about it, and they both (GP's) said my readings were fine, not to worry, and not to bother testing my bg at home. But I am doing my best to get my levels down and eat better, so you and I need to take this as a wake-up call to prevent things from getting worse IMO.

 

[cmor16]

In my non medical, uneducated opinion, if I were you, I would not be eating anything you are not hungry for, especially if you are trying to lose weight, consider your “diagnosis” as a wake up call, try to eat yourself into a healthier lifestyle, but don’t fret about things like DP

I also typically fast from my evening meal so eating before bed wouldn't work for me. My morning readings aren't super high, just slightly over the norm.

 

[cmor16]

The last few days my morning readings have been 6.5 - I have not been diagnosed with pre-diabetes as yet - I was 1 point away (41) on my hb thingy test at the doctors, yet they did not say anything and I took the print-out home as they gave it to me to show I was anaemic, I later went through the results and found the results to be nearly pre-diabetic and made 2 appointments to see GP's to ask about it, and they both (GP's) said my readings were fine, not to worry, and not to bother testing my bg at home. But I am doing my best to get my levels down and eat better, so you and I need to take this as a wake-up call to prevent things from getting worse IMO.

Totally agree Kittylitter. I will never go back to eating the way I did. Whether I am actually am pre-diabetic or not there is obviously something going on and that's enough for me.

 

[Guzzler]

Fasting blood glucose levels are often the last and trickiest to fall. I am not absolutely convinced about eating carbs before bed to combat DP but some members swear by it. DP is a natural process and everyone has it, the problem lies for those of us with Pre D/T2 in that our livers dump too much and for too long at times.
Some members report that it takes months for them to see a fall in FBGs.

 

[dbr10]

The last few days my morning readings have been 6.5 - I have not been diagnosed with pre-diabetes as yet - I was 1 point away (41) on my hb thingy test at the doctors, yet they did not say anything and I took the print-out home as they gave it to me to show I was anaemic, I later went through the results and found the results to be nearly pre-diabetic and made 2 appointments to see GP's to ask about it, and they both (GP's) said my readings were fine, not to worry, and not to bother testing my bg at home. But I am doing my best to get my levels down and eat better, so you and I need to take this as a wake-up call to prevent things from getting worse IMO.

Yes. You need to get on top of it. The not to worry advice is poor.

 

[cmor16]

Fasting blood glucose levels are often the last and trickiest to fall. I am not absolutely convinced about eating carbs before bed to combat DP but some members swear by it. DP is a natural process and everyone has it, the problem lies for those of us with Pre D/T2 in that our livers dump too much and for too long at times.
Some members report that it takes months for them to see a fall in FBGs.

I've read that cider vinegar before bed can help so I might try that.

 

[Guzzler]

I've read that cider vinegar before bed can help so I might try that.

I have not read much on apple cider vinegar and its supposed effects, however, I have read on the forum that it should be taken diluted and the mouth should be rinsed afterward to avoid damage to the enamel of the teeth.

 

[cmor16]

I have not read much on apple cider vinegar and its supposed effects, however, I have read on the forum that it should be taken diluted and the mouth should be rinsed afterward to avoid damage to the enamel of the teeth.

Yes I have a stainless steel straw (cutting down on plastic!) that I use when I take it.

 

[Bluetit1802]

If some people find a small snack before bed helps, then I believe it is just a coincidence. The liver will dump stored glucose every morning as part of a natural process, whether that person ate something 8 hours previously or not. Insulin resistant people will see a rise in blood sugars, because although the pancreas will secrete enough insulin to clear this dumped glucose to the cells, the insulin is prevented from doing this. The more a person is insulin resistant, the higher the raised levels of glucose will be and the longer the glucose will stay in the blood stream.

I also believe the longer we fast overnight (from dinner to at least breakfast) the better it is for our diabetes control.

 

[Kittylitter]

I've read that cider vinegar before bed can help so I might try that.

https://nutritionandmetabolism.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s12986-015-0033-2 - could be worth a read.

 

[novorapidboi26]

Dawn Phenomenon is a mixture of liver dump and hormones that increase resistance to insulin.....

And it happens because the body has no quick access fuel in the stomach to help with the energy hungry process that is waking.....

having carbs before bed isn't really a good tactic as they digest relatively quickly and will be done and dusted in a few hours, but certainly having something that digests slowly could help reduce the severity of it [nuts/cheese, as mentioned earlier]......but you cant stop or change the other hormones being released.....and if you are already resistant due to a type 2 diagnosis, this will contribute to a higher fasting level....

 

[Guzzler]

Dawn Phenomenon is a mixture of liver dump and hormones that increase resistance to insulin.....

And it happens because the body has no quick access fuel in the stomach to help with the energy hungry process that is waking.....

having carbs before bed isn't really a good tactic as they digest relatively quickly and will be done and dusted in a few hours, but certainly having something that digests slowly could help reduce the severity of it [nuts/cheese, as mentioned earlier]......but you cant stop or change the other hormones being released.....and if you are already resistant due to a type 2 diagnosis, this will contribute to a higher fasting level....

Can you tell me the names of these hormones, please.

 

[novorapidboi26]

Can you tell me the names of these hormones, please.

besides glucagon, which is released from the pancreas alpha cells, and tells the liver to release some of its energy stores, cortisol and adrenaline.....I believe its these two that increase insulin resistance...

 

[Guzzler]

besides glucagon, which is released from the pancreas alpha cells, and tells the liver to release some of its energy stores, cortisol and adrenaline.....I believe its these two that increase insulin resistance...

Glucagon as in the insulin antagonist? Interesting stuff, thank you.

 

[Bluetit1802]

@Guzzler The other hormones that come in play for DP are the human growth hormone and insulin itself. They all have different jobs to do.

It's strange about adrenaline , because certain beta blockers block adrenaline secretion - yet are well known to increase insulin resistance and interfere with the insulin secretion in the pancreas. (Atenolol is one of those beta blockers - beta blockers so called because they block beta cells including the ones in the pancreas) I think this must be because once the liver has dumped, the pancreas secretes insulin to clear the glucose, but if the beta cells are interfered with, it won't secrete enough. Hence raised BG.