Hi I have a question about Dr Greger author of, How not to die. And exponent of the plant-based diet, he says fat causes diabetes not carbs.

[James9000]

Everyone with a gall bladder releases bile when they eat a meal containing fat - any kind of fat.

And AFAIK consuming fat with carbs slows down the blood glucose spike.

Hi, you are quite correct I know ulcerative colitis is a topic for a different forum but the suggestion is that the byproducts of the bile interact in some way with the colon of some people who have ulcerative colitis and its an irritating effect.

 

[James9000]

Think what often gets missed in debates on the causes of diabetes, is processed foods.

To quote from Dr Michael Mosely's book 'The Fast 800 Keto', Chapter 1, Summary:

"Although fats, carbs and sugar have in turn been blamed for the current obesity crisis, there is mounting evidence that the real problem is ultra processed food, which is typically high in poor quality fat, carbs, sugar and salt, making it incredibly calorific and hard to resist. And as Dr Chris van Tulleken discovered, once you start eating these foods they can mess with your brain".

Don't think it's a coincidence that milk chocolate, ice cream, chips, pepperoni pizza, crisps, sponge cake, buttered popcorn, and cheeseburgers all have a ratio 1g of fat to 2g of carbs. That's the ratio that we tend to find is addictive. The reason why this ratio is irresistible is because it resembles the first food we most likely consumed, human milk, which contains around 4g fat and 8g of carbs.

Like Dr Mosely in his book 'The Fast 800', I also think food manufacturers are aware of this vulnerability and of course for the sake of profits, exploit it.

Very interesting what you say, I didn't know that about human milk. But it's so crazy what is on YouTTube. This is the straight out hypothesis of the vegan promoters and that is we are closely related in evolution to apes and apes eat vegetable matter all day long, that's what they're designed to do, And that's what we are designed to eat. All the Neanderthal man variants are not mentioned. But they are constantly repeating an old rice cure for diabetes, Which they say works. In the comments people are saying left and right that a plant-based diet has cured their diabetes type II. It is so slick, so persuasive.

I'm not one to get sucked in I have other health conditions that have made me ponder healthy eating for a long period. But if someone makes a claim however outrageous or unlikely I feel it's due diligence to see if it's true. I notice there was a huge contradiction in what they say and the experience of just about every diabetic person who I've ever read or seen a YouTube video talking about the topic.

Personally I would like to categorically prove that the hypothesis that just a plant-based diet cures diabetes is incorrect. But the frustration is very hard to find nonbiased research. If actually quite hard to blame someone for lying if they're doing it because they think it will save animals.

 

[HSSS]

there is no douubt that if you have saturated fat with carbohydrates you get a much bigger blood sugar spike.

I kinda think there is a huge amount of doubt about that, as others have previously said too. Not sure why you think it’s undisputed or accurate. More from Geiger?

 

[ianf0ster]

The last time I checked, Greger's actual job depends upon him being vegan.

I 'm aware of claims that Insulin Resistance is caused by saturated fat, but I'm sceptical on 2 counts:
1. My BG meter tells me that I put my T2D into remission by going Low Carb, while at the same time I 'normalised' my sat fat intake back to how I ate in the 1980's). And it also tells me that many 'healthy' whole grains or whole veg foods that I used to eat are actually unhealthy for me now.

2. I developed both cardio vascular disease and T2D having been on a low fat (high whole grains and fruit) way of eating for over a decade. Indeed it was only on that way of eating that my weight increased slowly. Both before and after, the way I ate kept me slim. I was still considered slim (actually 2lbs into overweight BMI) when diagnosed with T2D. Since I was eating so little sat fat (whatever there is in chicken breast - not even eating turkey) for so long, why did I develop Insulin Resistance? - After all I was supposedly eating the right way to both reverse it and to avoid the Cardio Vascular Disease!

 

[KennyA]

Very interesting what you say, I didn't know that about human milk. But it's so crazy what is on YouTTube. This is the straight out hypothesis of the vegan promoters and that is we are closely related in evolution to apes and apes eat vegetable matter all day long, that's what they're designed to do, And that's what we are designed to eat. All the Neanderthal man variants are not mentioned. But they are constantly repeating an old rice cure for diabetes, Which they say works. In the comments people are saying left and right that a plant-based diet has cured their diabetes type II. It is so slick, so persuasive.

I'm not one to get sucked in I have other health conditions that have made me ponder healthy eating for a long period. But if someone makes a claim however outrageous or unlikely I feel it's due diligence to see if it's true. I notice there was a huge contradiction in what they say and the experience of just about every diabetic person who I've ever read or seen a YouTube video talking about the topic.

Personally I would like to categorically prove that the hypothesis that just a plant-based diet cures diabetes is incorrect. But the frustration is very hard to find nonbiased research. If actually quite hard to blame someone for lying if they're doing it because they think it will save animals.

I think we should be very wary of talking about "cures" in respect of T2 diabetes. I've not seen any reputable claim to a "cure" following either a plant-based or an animal-based way of eating. Claiming a "cure" is one of the indications of a charlatan in my book.

I'd suggest however that clearly many people can, through low-carb, control at least one of the symptoms (raised blood glucose, which itself leads to many other complications) and there are accounts on these forums from people who have done that using both plant and animal based approaches.

 

[James9000]

The last time I checked, Greger's actual job depends upon him being vegan.

I 'm aware of claims that Insulin Resistance is caused by saturated fat, but I'm sceptical on 2 counts:
1. My BG meter tells me that I put my T2D into remission by going Low Carb, while at the same time I 'normalised' my sat fat intake back to how I ate in the 1980's). And it also tells me that many 'healthy' whole grains or whole veg foods that I used to eat are actually unhealthy for me now.

2. I developed both cardio vascular disease and T2D having been on a low fat (high whole grains and fruit) way of eating for over a decade. Indeed it was only on that way of eating that my weight increased slowly. Both before and after, the way I ate kept me slim. I was still considered slim (actually 2lbs into overweight BMI) when diagnosed with T2D. Since I was eating so little sat fat (whatever there is in chicken breast - not even eating turkey) for so long, why did I develop Insulin Resistance? - After all I was supposedly eating the right way to both reverse it and to avoid the Cardio Vascular Disease!

Sorry to hear that, it is very bad luck to develop these conditions when you are doing your best to be as healthy as possible which it sounds like you were. I'm really glad for yours and the other comments here. The low-carb model of eating has always felt right by was getting genuinely conflicted. It's just amazing how persuasive it is I don't consider myself to be a sucker I'm 50 years old I've been in sales I consider myself quite shrewd but I was definitely starting to question what was real and what wasn't. I've heard absolutely persuasive argument even panels of vegans protagonists stating that Fat causes diabetes and low-fat plant-based it's the cure. But I've never heard of a single person on YouTube who has diabetes that says it is true.

 

[JenniferM55]

Maybe if we took regular time out from eating? Perhaps then it wouldn't matter a jot whether carbs or fats were the culprits or not. Autophagy seems to be emerging as a real defender of health against most of the nastiest illnesses we can fall prey too.

Here's a brilliant yet simple explanation regarding Autophagy - even I understood

 

[CatsFive]

But it's so crazy what is on YouTTube.

There is lots of crazy stuff on YouTube that is wrong, and sometimes downright dangerous. There are a few good, reliable, reputable sources but they are massively outnumbered by the crazies.

 

[HSSS]

I've heard absolutely persuasive argument even panels of vegans protagonists stating that Fat causes diabetes and low-fat plant-based it's the cure.

Ah but are they confusing dietary fat with body fat? Are they talking from their moralistic standpoint or science? And as above the word “cure” sets all my red flags flying.

 

[LittleGreyCat]

This is the straight out hypothesis of the vegan promoters and that is we are closely related in evolution to apes and apes eat vegetable matter all day long, that's what they're designed to do, And that's what we are designed to eat.

Some apes do, such as Gorillas.
I've seen footage of Chimpanzees (who I believe are much more closely related to us) hunt monkeys as a pack, kill and eat them.
From our dentition and also our gut design we are omnivores, not herbivores or carnivores.

A further example - both Gorillas and Pandas (bears) which are vegetarian spend virtually the whole day eating vegetation just to stay alive.
Eating an omnivorous diet gives access to high energy and high protein foods which allow time for more intellectual pursuits than basic eating (such as posting on the Internet).

So treat these claims of evolutionary design by vegan promoters with a pinch of salt.

 

[James9000]

Some apes do, such as Gorillas.
I've seen footage of Chimpanzees (who I believe are much more closely related to us) hunt monkeys as a pack, kill and eat them.
From our dentition and also our gut design we are omnivores, not herbivores or carnivores.

A further example - both Gorillas and Pandas (bears) which are vegetarian spend virtually the whole day eating vegetation just to stay alive.
Eating an omnivorous diet gives access to high energy and high protein foods which allow time for more intellectual pursuits than basic eating (such as posting on the Internet).

So treat these claims of evolutionary design by vegan promoters with a pinch of salt.

That makes a lot of sense. I do feel like a sucker because I had gone mostly vegan and low-fat thinking I was doing good, and it wasn't the case. Perhaps if you're young your metabolism can get away with it. That said I don't believe in censorship with all these things one learns and grows.

I take responsibility for my own eating and am not blaming misinformation. It's mostly other bad habits regarding eating which am trying to now improve on.

 

[ajbod]

Our ancestors would not have survived their first winter if they only ate carbs.

 

[Paul_]

Hmmmm. Dr Greger has YouTube videos AND a book to sell. Whatever could his motivation be for talking absolute nonsense?

 

[CatsFive]

Our ancestors would not have survived their first winter if they only ate carbs.

Which ancestors are you thinking of? Hunter-gatherers or farmers?

 

[ajbod]

Farming began about 8000 years ago, so obviously previous to that, think cavemen.

 

[Paul_]

Farming began about 8000 years ago, so obviously previous to that, think cavemen.

I would describe myself as a low carb convert. I'm definitely an advocate of keto, at least when it comes to the high level principles of it.

However, I must confess I have a bit of an issue with the whole "we need to eat how our ancestors ate" thing. Firstly, all diets try to claim this is their aim and they can do this because no one really knows. Sure, there are educated guesses, but that's all they are. Secondly, and I feel this is quite important, cavemen (and caveladies) weren't exactly renowned for their long life expectancy! It's always been a bit of a tough sell for me where any diet is essentially claiming "eat how cave people did, they lived until the grand old age of 22, or sometimes even 23!"

 

[ajbod]

They didn't have medical knowledge, or optimal nutrition, back then you could easily die from a scratch from thorns, let alone a more serious injury. 150 years ago people still died from broken bones.
They would have eaten any meat they could kill to get, berries and nuts etc, and anything growing wild that was edible, that would be a trial and error process, that no doubt killed many, until the knowledge was gained what was safe to eat.
During winter gathering would be pretty scarce, so if a hunt failed they starved. Little protection from the elements, Raids by other tribes to steal away the women, that probably killed a few. Added to this predatory animals that would like them for lunch. Life would have been significantly harder than now. Perhaps a few hardened special forces blokes could have survived it, but most people on the planet wouldn't last a month.

 

[Paul_]

They didn't have medical knowledge, or optimal nutrition, back then you could easily die from a scratch from thorns, let alone a more serious injury. 150 years ago people still died from broken bones.
They would have eaten any meat they could kill to get, berries and nuts etc, and anything growing wild that was edible, that would be a trial and error process, that no doubt killed many, until the knowledge was gained what was safe to eat.
During winter gathering would be pretty scarce, so if a hunt failed they starved. Little protection from the elements, Raids by other tribes to steal away the women, that probably killed a few. Added to this predatory animals that would like them for lunch. Life would have been significantly harder than now. Perhaps a few hardened special forces blokes could have survived it, but most people on the planet wouldn't last a month.

Agree with most of that. However, assuming that assessment of diet is correct, how do we know it's not precisely because of all the hardship of living conditions that their diet was best for humans at the time?

Again, it's a bit of a tough sell to say "cave people ate like this, so we must eat like that too", when many modern day humans have some form of medical care, sit all day at a desk in a sedentary job, live in centrally heated houses/apartments with a lock on the door, and where the next meal is just out in the kitchen and cooked using a number of methods that weren't invented until very recently. We don't have any of the environmental conditions cave people did, so why should their diet be considered relevant without all those conditions in place?

I'm not saying low carb or keto isn't suitable (I'm living in that diet), I'm just debating the basis/validity of the ancestor diet reasoning.

 

[Jo123]

In my case I think it is a load of bull. I eat high fibre, low saturated fat, exercised and kept slim my whole life and still got pre diabetes. I've kept normal bg levels by low carbing since 2009.

 

[ajbod]

It's based on eating real meat, not processed in any way, real vegetation etc, unadulterated. Any form of grain would be very sparse. just the odd tuft, no fields anywhere, and the only way to process it to eat, would be to grind it between 2 stones. Bread is a bigger problem nowadays, because the wheat is steel rolled, producing a much finer flour which is more easily digested, so hits the bloodstream a lot quicker. Genuine stone ground takes longer to digest. But we're already compromised so is of not much use to us. The over riding thought is, don't be afraid of natural fats, enjoy them wherever they occur. It's the low fat mob, that put the world into the obesity, diabetes tangle.