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Ketosis

Discussion in 'Ask A Question' started by Anonymous, Jul 31, 2012.

  1. noblehead

    noblehead Type 1 · Guru
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    With respect Dillinger I've not mentioned ketoacidosis and of course I know they are two separate things, what my last two Endo's have said about ketones damaging the kidneys has been repeated on numerous occasions and lastly on the DAFNE course I attended, I'm more inclined to believe them I'm afraid being experts in this field than anything what someone says on an Internet forum.
     
  2. borofergie

    borofergie Type 2 · Well-Known Member

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    Well that all depends if you're consultant knows what she or he is talking about. I wouldn't put my health in the hands of a consultant that confuses "ketosis" and "ketoacidosis" just because they sound similar. :thumbdown:
     
  3. borofergie

    borofergie Type 2 · Well-Known Member

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    On kidney stones myth is based on the Hopkins where that they basically fed the kids a starvation diet of nasty chemicals, and that weak-bones, stunted-growth and kidney stones are all atributabal the malnutrition.

    The diet met only 75% of their calorific needs and was based around:
    Don't know about you, but I try to get my calories from whole food and cut down on "safflower oil emulsion and soy oil".
     
  4. borofergie

    borofergie Type 2 · Well-Known Member

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    I'd humbly suggest that Dr Jeff Volek is more of an expert in nutritional ketosis than your consultants.
     
  5. Administrator

    Administrator Family member · Well-Known Member
    Staff Member Administrator

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    Time out guys.

    Let's get back to the ketosis discussion. If anyone would like to continue discussion on whether it's best to trust one's consultant or alternative sources, please start a new thread for this but have respect for each other's choices (yes, even if you're convinced it's mad :) ).

    Many thanks
    Benedict
     
  6. xyzzy

    xyzzy Other · Well-Known Member

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    What is often forgotten and overlooked in the argument as to if Ketogenic diets are safe is that they are recommended and treated as long term safe in other fields of medicine that are not particularly related to diabetes or diet. For example one of the worlds leading researchers the Johns Hopkins neurologist Dr. Eric Kossoff pronounced long term use of Ketogenic diets safe back in 2009 for epileptics. You can find out more and see an interview with him here:

    http://www.thelivinlowcarbshow.com/...off-treats-epilepsy-with-ketosis-episode-367/

    More recent studies are beginning to conclude Ketogenic diets are effective against a range of neurological disorders including not just epilepsy but Alzheimers, Parkinsons, brain tumours and just plain aging to name a few.

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3321471/pdf/fphar-03-00059.pdf

    If Ketogenic diets are dangerous why are the recommended as long term safe for people with these other conditions?
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  7. Anonymous

    Anonymous · Guest

    err.. I think this is where I came in .. medical qualification is not all it's cracked up to be.

    there's a hole in my bucket etc etc...
     
  8. borofergie

    borofergie Type 2 · Well-Known Member

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    Is it because epilepsy is a serious and life-threatening condition, wheras diabetes is...ummmmm...
     
  9. Grazer

    Grazer · Well-Known Member

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    Simply an illness that can be cured by eating lots of starchy carbs my consultant said......won't be a minute, the "consultant" has just gone to get me a prescription for insulin....
     
  10. Paul1976

    Paul1976 · Well-Known Member

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    Yes Grazer,150-180 grams of carbs is not enough roughage for a growing diabetic..Repent now before it's too late! :crazy:
     
  11. xyzzy

    xyzzy Other · Well-Known Member

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    Actually I think the anti ketosis lobby thing is more to do with diet than diabetes. It's the fact that so many dieticians will have to admit they were wrong in the advice they have been stating for the past few decades, not just on ketosis but on strongly related issues such as fats etc.

    It's the dietetic professions long term pro stance on carbohydrate that makes a change problematic as diabetes and diet are so obviously intertwined. Epilepsy and the increasing number of neurological problems ketogenic diets are recommended for don't have that baggage or less so and maybe why adoption has been easier.

    Doesn't alter the fact that in these other areas ketogenic have been pronounced safe and those who oppose need to say why if it's safe for one group it isn't safe for others in my opinion.
     
  12. Grazer

    Grazer · Well-Known Member

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    I know, I know, but the amount of grass you have to get through to get the numbers up - you have no idea! That's why you see my mates standing round in fields all day doing nothing other than grazing!!

    Not me. I learned to eat meat and Fat, and drink Rioja, so I can spend time enjoying myself, riding my bike and stuff.
     

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  13. noblehead

    noblehead Type 1 · Guru
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    Love the Pic Grazer :lol:
     
  14. borofergie

    borofergie Type 2 · Well-Known Member

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    It's not just epilepsy, ketosis is also being used in the treatment of cancer:
    http://www.time.com/time/health/article ... 84,00.html

    Based on the so called "Warburg effect", which was first observed 80 years ago, in which cancer cells fuel themseves almost exclusively by glycosis. By fuelling your body on fat and ketones, you essentially starve the cancer cells to death.
     
  15. Defren

    Defren · Well-Known Member

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    And here is the crux isn't it? The medical profession would have to change it's deeply entrenched views and advice. My GP as I have said on this forum before, supports low carb ketogenic diets, but he still insists I have a urine test done to ensure no protein. I said my energy was from fat opposed to protein, but he still has to protect his own back I suppose. So I do what he asks as he does support me, which after reading this forum, I have learned is a very rare commodity and I plan to hold onto my Doctor with both hands.

    I suspect one day a ketogenic diet will be announced to be safe, the signs are there now, if only in small pockets. I shall keep a supply of tissues for those who condemned it as madness, to wipe the low carb egg from their faces. 8)
     
  16. xyzzy

    xyzzy Other · Well-Known Member

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    That statement really sums up ALL that is required for a diabetic following a ketogenic diet in my opinion. It is simply a statement that the "patient" should be monitored by their HCP's and is no different to the way we are monitored for BG's via an hBA1c or cholesterol levels by a lipids test or have our blood pressure taken. In fact that simple urine test for possible kidney problems is one of the tests that every diabetic should get at least once a year if the NICE guidelines are being correctly followed by the gp practice.
     
  17. catherinecherub

    catherinecherub · Guest

    I don't think you can compare ketogenic diets for children with epilepsy with the low carb diets practised on the forum. They are highly specialised with very few food choices which require constant monitoring, have a range of side effects including growth retardation and require mineral and vitamin supplementation. They are ruled out for fussy eaters and the child has to be highly motivated.

    This link is very informative and even shows some menu examples.
    http://www.diet.com/g/ketogenic-diets
     
  18. borofergie

    borofergie Type 2 · Well-Known Member

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    From the link:
    That sounds almost exactly like the diet that I eat, with the exception that I don't take any supplements and that I get a complete blood test every 12 months.

    I've mentioned this earlier in the thread, but the stunted growth / damaged kidney stuff is due to the fact that, in the original Hopkins study, the patients were fed a protein and calorie derived (<75% of their calorific need) diet made of chemical sludge. What you describe is a consquence of malnutrition, not ketosis :
    http://perfecthealthdiet.com/2011/03/ke ... nic-diets/

    The vitamin thing is a total red herring, as we've discussed many times before. On a ketogenic diet you end up eating plenty of salad, spinich and brocolli, what viatmin containing foods do you think are missing?
     
  19. catherinecherub

    catherinecherub · Guest

    If you read my post, I am not criticising anyone's diet here. There are too many variations of the low carb diet here and that is why I say there is a difference. The child would not be helped by sitting down to a meal with people here who think their diet constitutes a ketogenic diet when in fact they have lowered their carbs to suit their meter readings and there is a variation in that due to individuality.

    "There has to be a rigid, mathematically calculated, supervised diet". How many people here fall into that category?

    The ketogenic diet must never be undertaken without the correct medical and nutrition supervision. The risks of an unsupervised diet can result in malnutrition, chemical imbalance, vitamin deficiency and may even result in death". Would you say that you need that level of intervention?

    http://www.thedaisygarland.org.uk/epile ... genic-diet

    The growth retardation and weight loss from the diet for the children is real.
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22749312

    There is nothing personal in my post. It is to illustrate that there are differences in an adult diabetic deciding on a ketogenic diet and a child with epilepsy.
     
  20. Defren

    Defren · Well-Known Member

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    Well, as far as I can see, so long as you are monitored then what else can be done? I know by how I feel that this works for me, so with monitoring, I am content with my choices. The nay sayers seem to be against a ketogenic diet just because they can, none of the vocal anti low carbers here and elsewhere have tried this approach. There is no hard science I know of to rubbish this approach, and not even much anecdotal evidence this is in any way dangerous. It's all just a case of people not liking the sound of it, so they attack what they don't understand. Dr Robert Atkins knew all about that, yet does now seem more vindicated than ever.
     
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