Newcastle diet starting Monday, done it once who gonna join me on my journey??

[brettsza]

I gained half a kilo last week and in next 4 days i dropped it back so i am only half a kilo up from my nd ending weight and i am into 4th week which is not bad at all. But yes where i was only seeing 4 i am mostly seeing 4 and 5 but not much.
Few carb heavy meals did not do a lot i was 5.2ish after two hours peaking at 6ish. But i have only had 3 treats since my nd and doing lchf about 20 to 30g carbs per day.

 

[Living-by-the-beach]

What might be helpful here is input from people that have now completed NP / ND and that have an opinion on whether it was the aggressive nature of NP/ND or overall weight loss. I am starting to think its the aggression of "Shakes & veggies" that gets us to be un-diabetic?

 

[Pipp]

What might be helpful here is input from people that have now completed NP / ND and that have an opinion on whether it was the aggressive nature of NP/ND or overall weight loss. I am starting to think its the aggression of "Shakes & veggies" that gets us to be un-diabetic?

I don't think it is that simple. For me it seemed to be the starvation phase, with non-diabetic BG. Numbers appearing in first few days.

The two most successful NDers I am aware of, (shed weight and maintained weight loss and 'reversed') are @Andrew Colvin and @paulins. Not sure if they are around to give input, but check their posts out. From about a year ago.

 

[Steve50]

For what it's worth I believe the 'agressive' element is important. If this came about by trying to imitate the fasting associated with bariatric surgery - that is aggresive. This is only opinion but slow weight loss did nothing for my fasting blood readings. And I lost much more weight on the 5:2. (17kg) Fasting blood scores have only been low since the aggresive weight loss of 10 kg. and remained low post NP. Remission???? That's the $64,000 question. Of course it may be that the last 10kg took me below my personal Fat threshold.

 

[Pipp]

For what it's worth I believe the 'agressive' element is important. If this came about by trying to imitate the fasting associated with bariatric surgery - that is aggresive. This is only opinion but slow weight loss did nothing for my fasting blood readings. And I lost much more weight on the 5:2. (17kg) Fasting blood scores have only been low since the aggresive weight loss of 10 kg. and remained low post NP. Remission???? That's the $64,000 question. Of course it may be that the last 10kg took me below my personal Fat threshold.

I too did ND as last chance as alternative to surgery. Think it is important even if we 'reverse' to never forget we are not 'cured'. Have to be vigilant for ever. Watch weight, low carb test BG eat to meter. For ever.

 

[Eurobuff]

For what it's worth I believe the 'agressive' element is important. If this came about by trying to imitate the fasting associated with bariatric surgery - that is aggresive. This is only opinion but slow weight loss did nothing for my fasting blood readings. And I lost much more weight on the 5:2. (17kg) Fasting blood scores have only been low since the aggresive weight loss of 10 kg. and remained low post NP. Remission???? That's the $64,000 question. Of course it may be that the last 10kg took me below my personal Fat threshold.

So going on the Prof Taylor's theory, that 15% of weight loss is required (from diabetes diagnosis). At the time you had lost 17kgs on the 5:2 diet, what percentage of weight loss was that?

 

[Steve50]

So I've not been getting the love from my meter lately I've re-read http://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2013/may/12/type-2-diabetes-diet-cure and I am so done with having T2D. I've lost 61½ lbs more than 23% of my body weight yet still diabetic numbers. I went to the store and bought a couple of cans of Slimfast & I'm going to finish my journey with NP directly. I am so done with T2D. I feel a kinship with Richard Doughty as I am now starting from a low BMI of 23 down from 30.7. My only regret is that I wish I'd started when I had a bit more meat on my bones like a BMI of 24-25.

Hi LBB

I know I have mentioned this before but I have found great variation from one meter to the next. It is worth calibrating your meter. You can get a reading from the chemists. Take your meter along and take a reading from both their meter and yours at the same time.

Then leave with the meter that gives you the lowest reading.

 

[Steve50]

So going on the Prof Taylor's theory, that 15% of weight loss is required (from diabetes diagnosis). At the time you had lost 17kgs on the 5:2 diet, what percentage of weight loss was that?

Hi EB

I started at 110kg. So 17kg is close to 15%. But for me that was not enough. I had to clear my liver and pancreas of 30 years of red wine!!!

This is one aspect of the NP that can not be as simple as 15%. I believe the right figure is Personal %. Our underweight Diabies may only be able to drop a comparatively small % whereas the 'fuller figure' Diabies may need to drop a lot more.

 

[Eurobuff]

Hi EB

I started at 110kg. So 17kg is close to 15%. But for me that was not enough. I had to clear my liver and pancreas of 30 years of red wine!!!

This is one aspect of the NP that can not be as simple as 15%. I believe the right figure is Personal %. Our underweight Diabies may only be able to drop a comparatively small % whereas the 'fuller figure' Diabies may need to drop a lot more.

It makes you wonder if it is the speed of weight loss that's important, and if you'd have done the NP first and lost 17kgs I wonder if that would have done the trick? I'm all confused by it all. My starting weight was 62kgs (may 2014), I now weigh 57.2kgs, so haven't lost 15% (maybe 7 1/2%), but my fasting BG are mostly 4's & low 5's (I think I've had an odd 6), it's my post meal figures that are higher. If I was to do the NP diet I don't think I would be able to tell if it was doing any good going by my fasting figures.

 

[Living-by-the-beach]

For what it's worth I believe the 'agressive' element is important. If this came about by trying to imitate the fasting associated with bariatric surgery - that is aggressive. This is only opinion but slow weight loss did nothing for my fasting blood readings. And I lost much more weight on the 5:2. (17kg) Fasting blood scores have only been low since the aggresive weight loss of 10 kg. and remained low post NP. Remission???? That's the $64,000 question. Of course it may be that the last 10kg took me below my personal Fat threshold.

@Steve50

I too think it maybe the aggressive action that really gets dirty with the disease. I am now 62lbs lighter than worst levels and I had a 6.4 millimols/L reading this morning = a diabetic reading. I got the Slimfast last night & I have a Vitamix to blend the shake with some additional ice.to make it seem more than it is. I'm checking my FBGs in the morning only. That's the one key reading that makes the difference. Maybe I needed to lose 40lbs then start doing hardcore NP / ND but I'm trying not to become a complete waif as I'm 6'4" in height. Alas here states-side there is no support for the NP/ND protocol except with Dr Fung yet he is in Canada

 

[Wildrover]

I too did ND as last chance as alternative to surgery. Think it is important even if we 'reverse' to never forget we are not 'cured'. Have to be vigilant for ever. Watch weight, low carb test BG eat to meter. For ever.

Methinks your 100% right Pipp, it is for life

 

[Living-by-the-beach]

I too did ND as last chance as alternative to surgery. Think it is important even if we 'reverse' to never forget we are not 'cured'. Have to be vigilant for ever. Watch weight, low carb test BG eat to meter. For ever.

@Pipp

Thanks for adding to this conversation. I am curious to know what made you decide that you'd become "Un-diabetic" was there a level of BGs that told you okay, its enough? Richard Doughty being slim to start with got to a low number of 4.1 millimols/l at day 11 and then via remote help from Taylor who suggested that that should be enough. 2 months later he got his A1c done and it came in okay at 5.1mmol/l and was given the all clear..

FWIW All help is gratefully received

 

[Steve50]

@Steve50

I too think it maybe the aggressive action that really gets dirty with the disease. I am now 62lbs lighter than worst levels and I had a 6.4 millimols/L reading this morning = a diabetic reading. I got the Slimfast last night & I have a Vitamix to blend the shake with some additional ice.to make it seem more than it is. I'm checking my FBGs in the morning only. That's the one key reading that makes the difference. Maybe I needed to lose 40lbs then start doing hardcore NP / ND but I'm trying not to become a complete waif as I'm 6'4" in height. Alas here states-side there is no support for the NP/ND protocol except with Dr Fung yet he is in Canada

HI BTB

I still think we are pioneers with the NP - even though so much is known about it and so much research has been and is being conducted based on it's hypothesis. Even so, we are swimming against the tide.

The medical establishment (quite rightly) is cautious and slow to respond - at least in our cases - as it may not approve the NP for quite some time if at all. What we are doing here, is mounting up the evidence. Through our relatively small movement, we are providing a platform for engagement - and also an evidence base, that may not be otherwise possible given the ethical constraints of the medical establishment. Our doctors are only learning about this through Continual Professional Development - a relatively unstructured and random process. If it ever makes it onto the curriculum, it will take years and years before it has an impact on community health.

The food and nutrition industry is all over the place pushing and pulling us in one direction or another - tempting us with products and diets. Again, a lot of research has been done - and continues to be done. But commercial interests are always going to compete with good science. Basically our modern diet is killing us. We know this - but don't seem to be able to turn the culture around.

The pharmaceutical industry is not really involved in the NP. The NP is actually more about a dietary related 'self cure' - in some ways related to the recent 'immunotherapy' breakthrough in cancer treatment. Essentially training the body to fix itself. The key difference being in cancer this is achieved with a drug. A magic bullet. Something tangible that we can take. In the case of the NP it is achieved by an 'idea' - providing our own bodies with the wherewithal to develop and maintain our own chemical balance - by taking away the things that have and are causing damage (fatty liver and pancreas) and aiming towards lowering or eliminating the use for drugs. No magic bullet. In many ways too simple and too good to be true - but with no platform to launch this from - no drug company endorsement, no nutritional sponsor, no media headlines beyond the initial story of the groundbreaking work of Prof T.

So - it is really up to us to drive this movement, collect up our ideas, test out theories and share our experiences. This thread of (dare I use the term 'social media') is the best platform we have. We can form our own community. We are not going to change the world - but we may change our little part of it - if what we are doing turns out to be the best way to deal with the growing epidemic of T2 - even just for us, then it has to be worth it. Even if it does not catch on - or is overtaken by other breakthroughs, I will still feel as if I have been proactive - and not been sitting back waiting for someone or something to find a cure.

So - there is very little by way of support for the NP - except this group of course. We support each other. There is some information to share around, some experiences too. But there is also the psychological support. The NP is not easy. We need to help each other and encourage each other through it. I used to play music and was making quite slow progress - till I joined a band. Collective music making moved me along and made it fun. Not sure if that analogy works all that well - but if we think of ourselves as doing this collectively - listening to each other and doing it together, then that is 'support' isn't it? And if it turns out we can turn things around, kick T2 into remission, who knows.....

I don't think any of us are naive enough to think we are changing the world here. We are just learning. That's all. Caring enough about our own health and learning how to manage it.

End of though stream....

 

[Steve50]

It makes you wonder if it is the speed of weight loss that's important, and if you'd have done the NP first and lost 17kgs I wonder if that would have done the trick? I'm all confused by it all. My starting weight was 62kgs (may 2014), I now weigh 57.2kgs, so haven't lost 15% (maybe 7 1/2%), but my fasting BG are mostly 4's & low 5's (I think I've had an odd 6), it's my post meal figures that are higher. If I was to do the NP diet I don't think I would be able to tell if it was doing any good going by my fasting figures.

Hi EB

This is really interesting. You are quite light already - so in your case (and the same goes with quite a growing number of others on this thread) weight loss per se is not a clear indicator of progress. What we need to be able to measure is our own fat stores in our liver and pancreas. How are we going to be able to do that without an imaging machine. Perhaps there are tests we can ask for - such as the glucose tolerance test?

 

[AndBreathe]

Hi EB

This is really interesting. You are quite light already - so in your case (and the same goes with quite a growing number of others on this thread) weight loss per se is not a clear indicator of progress. What we need to be able to measure is our own fat stores in our liver and pancreas. How are we going to be able to do that without an imaging machine. Perhaps there are tests we can ask for - such as the glucose tolerance test?

My understanding is the 15% was the average participants lost prior on their way to downwardly crossing their Personal Fat Threshold (PFT). The PFT being personal makes it hard to predict where it actually is on the weight graph. Professor Taylor states, in his Autumn 2014 paper that:

"....The PFT concept is of practical use in explaining the need for weight loss to individuals with T2DM, even if they are not obese. For any one person, the degree of susceptibility to the adverse effects of excess fat varies and their T2DM susceptibility cannot be known unless their PFT is exceeded. Once T2DM is triggered, substantial weight loss will be needed to reverse it. This hypothetical PFT for a person could be determined by careful observation during a weight loss intervention and would be the BMI at which their first-phase insulin response became normal...."

This is an area where an OGTT could be beneficial, although personally, that seems like such a brutal test; especially if it needed to be conducted more than once along the way. I am pretty certain Professor Taylor states the loss is more important than the method in his January 2015 lecture, but I don't have time to confirm that right now.

And of course, once the PFT has been passed on the downward trajectory it is important not to re-cross it upwardly, as that's when any improvements will be lost. This is something Professor Taylor was at pains to point out to me in an email when I wrote to him about his diagnosis/reversal criteria.

 

[Steve50]

Hi AB

This is pretty much my understanding as well.

We seem to be discussing two things here;

1.The relative amount of weight loss and understanding the point when we cross our individual PFT, and
2. the relative effects of 'rapid' weight loss.

These seem to be individual - and so it's great to hear what others think and have experienced.

 

[Eurobuff]

Hi EB

This is really interesting. You are quite light already - so in your case (and the same goes with quite a growing number of others on this thread) weight loss per se is not a clear indicator of progress. What we need to be able to measure is our own fat stores in our liver and pancreas. How are we going to be able to do that without an imaging machine. Perhaps there are tests we can ask for - such as the glucose tolerance test?

I think I would fail a GTT. I low carb but my post meal figures are 6's & some 7's, even 4 or 5 hours after its still 6's. The only time I see 4's or 5's is first thing in a morning.

 

[Steve50]

I think I would fail a GTT. I low carb but my post meal figures are 6's & some 7's, even 4 or 5 hours after its still 6's. The only time I see 4's or 5's is first thing in a morning.

HI EB

That sounds familiar. And the GTT is awful! There must be a better way.

 

[Pipp]

@Pipp

Thanks for adding to this conversation. I am curious to know what made you decide that you'd become "Un-diabetic" was there a level of BGs that told you okay, its enough? Richard Doughty being slim to start with got to a low number of 4.1 millimols/l at day 11 and then via remote help from Taylor who suggested that that should be enough. 2 months later he got his A1c done and it came in okay at 5.1mmol/l and was given the all clear..

FWIW All help is gratefully received

HbA1c of 34 when it had previously been 70s. Also, nothing I ate caused spikes in BG. In the early days following end of my ND I sort of felt quite euphoric and believed I had beaten diabetes. For me ' reversed' meant I did not have diabetes, but in reality what I did not have was diabetes BG. A subtle difference. If one does not have diabetes that means cured. If one does not have diabetes BG that means controlled.

It is now getting on for four years since I first did ND. In the interim period I have been more immobile than usual (I had spinal injury over 20 years ago that restricts my mobility). I have needed major surgery on 2 occasions that has left me dependent on others for catering. Also, I confess to being less disciplined about food intake than I should so have regained some weight lost. It is apparent that I could be getting close to my personal fat threshold again, as last HbA1c was 41. Teetering on the brink of pre-diabetic levels. BG average readings have crept up from around 4.8 to around 5.9. If I don't sort this I could be in trouble.

What has brought me to this? I believe it has been portion size. Although I have generally stayed low carb I have had an odd beer and sandwich. No spike in BG with them. I have had a lot of cheese, nuts and cream. Some people seem to be able to do that. I can't. So weight gain has been a problem for me. Still 35kg less than at my heaviest, so all is not lost (or perhaps gained) but essential that I shed some of the gained weight.

My reason for telling this? I do not want anyone to think ND, as brilliant as it is for some of us, is a quick fix cure. It is another 'tool' in the box to deal with T2 for some of us, but as with all repairs once initial problem is fixed future maintenence is essential to keep the machine working.

 

[Steve50]

Hi Pip

This, too, is a great discussion. I know we have gone over this ealier in this thread.

Problem 1 - removing the liver and pancreas fat - possible solution the ND
Problem 2 - staying below our personal fat threshold - possible solution ??????