Newcastle diet starting Monday, done it once who gonna join me on my journey??

[Arab Horse]

Thanks @Pipp for the input. "Perhaps it won't work as well for those with a start point weight less than extremely obese?" makes sense, I just hope I've not screwed my chances up as I'm now only starting ND / NP where my BMI is 23.1 or so. The nugget of knowledge I've gathered from your text above is that one can become un-diabetic and yet still have a large BMI 30+ number. So maybe we should be challenging Prof. Taylor to maybe modify his thoughts that its the aggressive-ness of ND & not exactly the entire weight loss that is helping patients?

Prof Taylor stated that he noticed that the bariatric patients had reversed their diabetes within a week and he thought it was the strict calorie control that was responsible and not the change in gut hormones as other clinicians said so I think he is well aware that it is not the entire weight loss but the sudden, dramatic calorie restriction. My weight loss was quite dramatic when I cut the carbs (and probably didn't eat enough fat to replace them) but it made no difference to my carb tolerance so it suggests to me that it is the SUDDEN SEVERE calorie restriction that works rather than the weight loss alone. I had lost over 20% of my weight even though I was in the healthy range at diagnosis although a few pounds over what I personally liked to be.

However, I may be one of the 20% who will be unable to reverse their diabetes as I am a very untypical T2. Thinking back I did have a lot of the risk factors; stress, lack of sleep, fairly high card diet although I didn't realise it was so bad as I generally ate good carbs: Not much bread (but what I did eat was granary/seeded), grapefruit followed by bran flakes for breakfast with semi skimmed milk, seed sprinkle and chopped fruit in season plus mug of strong black coffee, no sugar. I was sometimes too busy to eat or drink during the day and as I worked in a lab I was unable to do so in the lab. I would then go home and do the horses before I ate so it would be 9.00pm before I had anything from my breakfast at 6.00am. If I was very tired I confess I sometimes had a bar of chocolate and a glass of wine before falling into bed at 10.45ish and then getting up again at 3.45am to start again.

I didn't drink sugary drinks but did have fruit juice or smoothies sometimes and on days out at horse shows had fish and chips followed by crepes or a donut and brought real fruit juice to drink thinking it was healthy so a real carb load. I usually take a friend with me and he likes to stop on the motorway and have a Starbucks or whatever they have so I indulged myself with a lovely indulgent coffee instead of my usual black!

My only family history of diabetes was my paternal grandfather who died before I was born so I am not really sure what type he was but I think T2 as the only thing I know about him is that my mum once told me that she used to bathe his diabetic ulcers. I was overweight as a child (not obese) until I moved to Singapore when I was 14 and sweated all the weight off in the heat and humidity as I got into sport at school and did a lot of swimming. Is obesity/overweight in the early years a risk factor.

I will give Prof Taylor a summary of my history and what happens during/after my diet to add to his data base as it would be useful for the long term ND prediction of success.

 

[RobOwen]

...
I prefer to leave Prof Taylor and his team to reach their own conclusions following controlled experiments. However, I see no harm in anyone sending them anecdotal evidence from their personal experiences to aid in study designs. It could be some time before any definitive answers are found. In the meantime, it would help if motivated people did have access to information on various methods of diabetes control, even those in trial stages, in order to make informed choices. Sadly, many people with T2 that I have encountered seem content to hand responsibility for their own well being to the HCPs, who in my opinion, are following an outdated, misinformed protocol.

... also this new thread might be helpful for Prof Taylor's further research (if he was also informed of its presence) . ...

Interestingly Prof. Taylor's team published a short report in Jan 2013 that collates information from the people who have contacted them since publication of the Counterpoint Study (on the reversibility of Type 2 diabetes using a very low energy diet). The initial study involved selected 11 individuals who fitted some specific criteria, 7 of whom were deemed to have "reversed their diabetes" at the end of the 8 week study. This report covers 77 individuals who forwarded self-reported data. It's not a long or technical report but the conclusion is, "These data demonstrate that intentional weight loss achieved at home by health-motivated individuals can reverse Type 2 diabetes. Diabetes reversal should be a goal in the management of Type 2 diabetes."

It's reassuring that the evidence is mounting for us to use with our own health professionals to support our decisions to try this approach as a methodology to manage our type 2 circumstances.

 

[RobOwen]

Not long to go now Rob

Nope - day 45/56 & today's weigh in was 14st 4lbs (90.7kg). FBG 4.2 with a 30 day avg of 5.4 - all going in the right direction and might even exceed by self-imposed target of 14st .

To reach a BMI of 24.9 I need to reach 12st 11lbs with my 5' 10" height. 14st would make it 27.4 - roughly the middle of the "overweight" section. Plenty still to go when I migrate onto LCHF.

 

[Pipp]

If this thread is to be used in any scientific way, it will need to be set up properly.

Firstly we would need to decide if it is 'theory building' or 'theory testing'. It could be either. To theory build, we would consider a question such as 'How can a person with T2 use diet to bring about remission?' If we go the theory testing way it would be perhaps 'Does the NP (Prof Taylor) work for a self selected sample of people with T2?'. This would give us our Method.

To do this in any controlled quantitative way would take quite a bit of structure, resource and specific expertise. However, we could use 'grounded theory' and make this a qualitative piece of research. We could possibly use this thread to collect up our data - and then use a conceptual framework that would provide a structured analysis and a legitimate scientific output.

Just saying!

Ok, but if we were to consider every member here who has completed ND for a valid study, surely because this was not set upbin a controlled, replicable study the only methodology for the study would be qualitative?

 

[Steve50]

Agree

So if any of us want to do this, we should consider what would be most helpful. What would the point of the research be? To prove that the NP works for a lot of people. Or, perhaps to test some of the propositions we have discussed - i.e. Rapid vs Gradual weight loss.

Perhaps what would make an original contribution to knowledge would be best. Maybe something around sustaining weight loss - or more specifically how we maintain T2 remission post NP?

 

[Arab Horse]

Agree

So if any of us want to do this, we should consider what would be most helpful. What would the point of the research be? To prove that the NP works for a lot of people. Or, perhaps to test some of the propositions we have discussed - i.e. Rapid vs Gradual weight loss.

Perhaps what would make an original contribution to knowledge would be best. Maybe something around sustaining weight loss - or more specifically how we maintain T2 remission post NP?

For me it would be "Maybe something around sustaining weight loss - or more specifically how we maintain T2 remission post NP?" as I really wouldn't want to "sustain the weight loss" but to "maintain T2 remission post NP" if I did manage to achieve remission.

 

[Steve50]

So - is there interest in us conducting a voluntary study in maintaining T2 remission?

Going to stick my neck out here and throw my hat in the ring to help with this. I am qualified in qualitative research - and am quite interested in this topic. Happy to work with you all on this - if there is an appetite for it? (perhaps poor use of metaphor!)

 

[RobOwen]

So - is there interest in us conducting a voluntary study in maintaining T2 remission?

Going to stick my neck out here and throw my hat in the ring to help with this. I am qualified in qualitative research - and am quite interested in this topic. Happy to work with you all on this - if there is an appetite for it? (perhaps poor use of metaphor!)

I'll happily contribute data - in the limited form I've kept.

 

[Arab Horse]

So - is there interest in us conducting a voluntary study in maintaining T2 remission?

Going to stick my neck out here and throw my hat in the ring to help with this. I am qualified in qualitative research - and am quite interested in this topic. Happy to work with you all on this - if there is an appetite for it? (perhaps poor use of metaphor!)

Thanks for volunteering, Steve.

Certainly an appetite, maybe even for the topic!!!! I would be very interested in what others have achieved set out in a scientific manner and would be willing for any of my data to be used. There could maybe be a separate table for NP results versus calorie/carb control by obese, overweight/normal weight and the skinnies like me!

Be nice to have others opinions on how/what to use.

 

[PatsyB]

Unsure if should try this diet maybe need to ask the Doctor first as do not want to lose any more weight

 

[Steve50]

Ok - well in this case I will see if there is 'enough' interest in the question;

'How do T2DM patients maintain weight loss after completing the Newcastle Diet Program?' (first draft - happy for this to be edited)

As this thread is a democratic process - so too should be this research. It should also be qualitative - that is a collection of responses and experiences. That makes it ideographic (sorry to use these terms - not showing off just making it sound scientific - so we can legitimise our efforts)

'The idiographic approach, unlike the nomothetic approach, focuses on the individual. It suggests that everyone is unique and therefore everyone should be studied in an individual way. Due to this, no general laws are possible. The methods of investigation, by this approach tend to collect qualitative (typo) data, investigating the individual. Case studies are the most common method, but other research methods include: unstructured interviews, self-reports, autobiographies and personal documents.' https://louisenichols.wordpress.com/2011/09/30/nomothetic-research-vs-idiographic-research/

Each participant would be an individual case study. If you want to contribute to this study - you can. If not - no problem. Consent will be necessary before anything anyone has contributed to this thread can be used.

That is - if there is interest in this?

 

[AndBreathe]

Ok - well in this case I will see if there is 'enough' interest in the question;

'How do T2DM patients maintain weight loss after completing the Newcastle Diet Program?' (first draft - happy for this to be edited)

As this thread is a democratic process - so too should be this research. It should also be qualitative - that is a collection of responses and experiences. That makes it ideographic (sorry to use these terms - not showing off just making it sound scientific - so we can legitimise our efforts)

'The idiographic approach, unlike the nomothetic approach, focuses on the individual. It suggests that everyone is unique and therefore everyone should be studied in an individual way. Due to this, no general laws are possible. The methods of investigation, by this approach tend to collect qualitative (typo) data, investigating the individual. Case studies are the most common method, but other research methods include: unstructured interviews, self-reports, autobiographies and personal documents.' https://louisenichols.wordpress.com/2011/09/30/nomothetic-research-vs-idiographic-research/

Each participant would be an individual case study. If you want to contribute to this study - you can. If not - no problem. Consent will be necessary before anything anyone has contributed to this thread can be used.

That is - if there is interest in this?

Is this purely for ND, or for anyone who has achieved the same results?

I do think there is a gaping, yawning gap in the market for the likes of @Pipp 's advice for transitioning from the VLC protocol. @Andrew Colvin already has a thread relating his post remission*/cure*/control* (delete as necessary) transition process.

Whichever route this takes, it will eventually filter off the front pages. There are already a number of ND threads which have run their course. I'm absolutely not suggesting this isn't a good idea, just pointing out that on t'internet things tend to have a lifespan.

 

[Wildrover]

@Steve50
That is - if there is interest in this?

I am up for that

 

[Steve50]

Is this purely for ND, or for anyone who has achieved the same results?

I do think there is a gaping, yawning gap in the market for the likes of @Pipp 's advice for transitioning from the VLC protocol. @Andrew Colvin already has a thread relating his post remission*/cure*/control* (delete as necessary) transition process.

Whichever route this takes, it will eventually filter off the front pages. There are already a number of ND threads which have run their course. I'm absolutely not suggesting this isn't a good idea, just pointing out that on t'internet things tend to have a lifespan.

Hi AB

I agree that threads take their natural course. I get the impression that what has kept this thread going is the momentum that has been created around the general themes of support and information.

What is being proposed here is quite a different proposition - and maybe better suited to a different thread. Although studies of this kind need to recruit participants - and this thread is where we will find them.

I agree that 'transition' seems to be the gap in knowledge - that this proposed research will address. However, as there is some debate about the means of losing weight - I think it would be important to limit the study to those who have completed the NP. That way we can narrow the investigation - and the narrower the better. But this may not necessarily exclude participants from this thread - or prevent others who have not completed the NP to contribute - for example, non NP participants may provide a kind of control group. Contribute in exactly the same way - but provide an alternative set of data for comparison.

I don't think it matters how long ago the NP was completed. I also think that the research should be a natural process. No interview questions - just people telling their stories around an agreed framework - i.e. telling their stories of how they transided from NP and how they maintained weight loss and low blood sugar.

The method of analysis that could be used could include semiotics - which would identify themes and develop theories. To reflect the nature of this thread - it would need to follow the same unstructured unregulated method. All we would be attempting - under this proposal - is to take a body of knowledge/content (i.e. elements of this thread) and consolidate them into one study. This would change the purpose of contributions from sharing information to developing theory.

What is more likely to come out of a study like this is a better set of questions - rather than answers - but that is what most research does anyway - elevates thinking to a higher level.

I am not arguing 'for' this research - just proposing how it might be undertaken - if there is interest.

 

[Pipp]

So - is there interest in us conducting a voluntary study in maintaining T2 remission?

Going to stick my neck out here and throw my hat in the ring to help with this. I am qualified in qualitative research - and am quite interested in this topic. Happy to work with you all on this - if there is an appetite for it? (perhaps poor use of metaphor!)

Can you be more precise in what it is you are seeking?
Is it a collection of the experiences of those who have completed a ND, whether successful or not? Is it experiences of those who have managed to keep non-diabetic BG levels by any method? Something else? Do we need to involve admin in setting up a specific area on forum for the purpose? Do I ask too many questions?

 

[Pipp]

@Steve50 I too have background in qualitative research, albeit a long while ago now. You could be undertaking a huge project here, so will need careful honing of ideas first. I hadn't seen your post in reply to AndBreathe before my previous post so sorry if I questioned something you have addressed there.
In recent months I have noticed greater interest in ND. More acceptance. Previously when I mentioned it there was a lot of scepticism. I was, in my perception, seen as a crank. What I would not like to do is give false hope to people for whom ND is not going to work. I think the concept of a thread for objective reports from NDers is good, but it could have a problem with people derailing it by bringing in opinions as to why it is wrong based on subjective opinions. This has been evident in the past when I have seen people post asking questions about ND and others have stepped in rubbishing it and promoting alternative eating plans, instead of answering the questions raised. So maybe a thread approved by admin, with a 'sticky' and only posts for those who have completed ND would be appropriate? Almost a sort of collective blog.

 

[Bewildered]

Hi, going completely off topic from the posts above…I can't work out how to start my own thread so I am posting here because lots of NP experience is within…
I started 11 days ago, fallen off the wagon a couple of times (including having a cup of tea with milk), however my question is in relation to Metformin SR. I was previously able to tolerate but am now getting unwanted side effects. I came off Gliclizide when I started NP but remained on Metformin SR 2g.
BG is improving even on the results I was getting with Gliclizide.
Total weight loss is 2stone 11lbs - which equates to somewhere around 17%, but lost 5 lb so far on NP.
ANy observations re Metformin side effects??
TIA

 

[Living-by-the-beach]

I read a paper a few years back and there is something special about fasting. When your cells have plenty of energy they replace themselves via replication. If they have a faulty gene they replicate the fault.

When you cells are depleted of energy and become damaged they go into a repair state when the body will do everything it can to fix any damage and not replicate as it is too expensive and therefore will fix the fault.

I also saw a TV programme about some South American Tribe the was cut off from the world that chain smoke every day from children but they never get cancers! However, they do fast for long periods of time throughout the year.

This repair/replace mechanism will definitely kick in when you are on ND. I raise this because (postulation) the ND causing cell repair and not replace may have an impact on the cells of the pancreas and liver and the causing them to become "switched back on" instead of just replicating them in the "off" state (ie broken).

@Andrew Colvin

Thank you for joining this conversation & all the old faithful contributors here. There are so many nuances to T2DM that we need all the help we can get which is clearly appreciated. Day 3 of ND NP. Weight down 1½ lbs now down from starting weight of ND (cumulatively 63½ lbs from worst levels 62lbs of conventional weightloss & exercise). FBG 6.2 / 112mg/dl.

 

[Steve50]

Hi, going completely off topic from the posts above…I can't work out how to start my own thread so I am posting here because lots of NP experience is within…
I started 11 days ago, fallen off the wagon a couple of times (including having a cup of tea with milk), however my question is in relation to Metformin SR. I was previously able to tolerate but am now getting unwanted side effects. I came off Gliclizide when I started NP but remained on Metformin SR 2g.
BG is improving even on the results I was getting with Gliclizide.
Total weight loss is 2stone 11lbs - which equates to somewhere around 17%, but lost 5 lb so far on NP.
ANy observations re Metformin side effects??
TIA

Hi B

I reached a stage in weight loss too when I could not tolerate the meds. So - no answers - but good q Euston. It is not really appropriate for any of us to advise other than your DN or Dr.

But I did wonder in low med tolerance was a sign of being below my personal fat threshold!

 

[Steve50]

@Steve50 I too have background in qualitative research, albeit a long while ago now. You could be undertaking a huge project here, so will need careful honing of ideas first. I hadn't seen your post in reply to AndBreathe before my previous post so sorry if I questioned something you have addressed there.
In recent months I have noticed greater interest in ND. More acceptance. Previously when I mentioned it there was a lot of scepticism. I was, in my perception, seen as a crank. What I would not like to do is give false hope to people for whom ND is not going to work. I think the concept of a thread for objective reports from NDers is good, but it could have a problem with people derailing it by bringing in opinions as to why it is wrong based on subjective opinions. This has been evident in the past when I have seen people post asking questions about ND and others have stepped in rubbishing it and promoting alternative eating plans, instead of answering the questions raised. So maybe a thread approved by admin, with a 'sticky' and only posts for those who have completed ND would be appropriate? Almost a sort of collective blog.

Hi Pip

So with our collective experience this may be doable.

It is worth spending time getting the question right and then agreeing a methodology and methods. Should we see if Prof T has any insights to offer. If we can dovetail this into his work that may give it more traction.