What is the evidence that the eatwell plate is wrong?

[Goonergal]

Concur with @bulkbiker and @maglil55 - I replaced carbs with fat and am 30kg lighter with much improved HbA1c. Eatwell plate did nothing for me.

 

[ringi]

Dr Unwin has lots of people coming off all their Type2 drugs or not having to start them in the first place. I expect he does not talk about reversal as he does not want people going back to their old ways of eating. (But he is now using the word "reversal" on twitter.)

The real savings to the NHS is by keeping everyone under an Ac1 of about 50 with no drug other than metformin being used and maintaining this for the rest of their life. The greatest payback for the least effort is getting people to change their diets enough that they don't move onto the 2nd or 3rd drug. This can be done by just "eat fewer carbs" without the "hardcore" low carb that most of us try to do.

 

[ickihun]

I'm only gaining weight when my bgs are over 5.9mmol/l whatever my diet and insulin levels.
Diet is just part of my multipal health conditions.
How come so many have dumped eatwell plate diet but still not happy with their diabetes management? No guarantee of reversal.
Low carbing is a tool for diabetes management. Like exercise and all other tools needed to stay healthy with type 2 diabetes.
I feel some are searching for the unicorn as it must exist since in so many books or movies. No. Just like not all diabetics will be able to reverse their diabetes.
I'm totally happy with good management and weight loss for my once morbidly obese body.
Will all type 2s ever reach acceptance and be able to enjoy their good management, which suits them? Allowing a happy healthy future.
Or is the eatwell pressure from nhs just keep disturbing their excellent management with their incorrect advice?
My weight loss has been interfered with by nhs training sessions for well living training which is part of the pre-bariatric criteria.
Now back to low carbing at levels which allows me to reduce insulin levels and lose weight on a hba1c of 48.
Eatwell plate doesnt do that for me.
Maybe after bariatric surgery but I won't be testing that one out. I'll be low carbing and making sure enough protein to keep strong. Whatever weight that settles me.
Eatwell plate should be ok for none diabetics but what would I know I'm not none diabetic!

 

[Tannith]

Really? where did you get that from.. when I heard him speak I don't recall him mentioning calorie restriction at all. Also I don't think the man who refers to bananas as "sugar sticks" will be recommending that particular piece of fruit.
I replaced my carbs with fat.. lots of it and lost 8 stone.. so I'm afraid your theory doesn't quite stack up.

Read the report above. It mentions weight loss constantly all the way through. The participants almost all lost weight, and almost all reduced their liver size and their NAFLD if they had it. It works in the same way as ND except that it stretches over a much longer period. Nothing whatsoever wrong with a weight loss diet whichever macronutrient(s) you cut down on. Good luck to all the participants and Dr Unwin. Unwin saved a lot of money for the NHS from helping his patients lose weight. Good for him.

 

[bulkbiker]

Read the report above. It mentions weight loss constantly all the way through. The participants almost all lost weight, and almost all reduced their liver size and their NAFLD if they had it. It works in the same way as ND except that it stretches over a much longer period. Nothing whatsoever wrong with a weight loss diet whichever macronutrient(s) you cut down on. Good luck to all the participants and Dr Unwin. Unwin saved a lot of money for the NHS from helping his patients lose weight. Good for him.

I did

"Weighing of food or calorie counting was not advised as this was thought to be less sustainable "

There was no defined calorie restriction just a replacement of food types which led to weight loss..

He recommends replacing starchy carbs with fruit & veg. He does not recommend replacing the calories from carbs with calories from extra fa

Was what you said which I was disagreeing with.. fats having gramme for gramme more than twice the caloric value of carbs then the diet could well be higher in calories but still could lead to weight loss once the hormonal issues caused by carb overconsumption are repaired.

I possibly incorrectly thought that when you mentioned "reducing" diet you meant a calorie reduction.. if this is not what you meant then apologies.

 

[MikeTurin]

Check if one has stopped to smoke is easy. You aren't littering fags everywhere and stopped to visit the tobacconist.
On the other hand checking ifone is taking the correct number of calories and the correct percentage of nutrient is really more difficult.

Rough guidelines are guidelines, that could be easily misunderstood or abused by advertisers, making people aeating less fat but more calories.

So, even from professionals are probabily misunderstanding tow to implement anc check dietary guidelines.
You get messages like mutter is bad, no wait, trans fat like in margarine are bad, then palm oil is bad, then lactose is bad, the sucrose is bad, then wine is bad, no wait, red wine is good, then that eating Oreos and weetabix is 'sporty'.

By the way I think that, as a computer professional, if thenews on tv and generalist newspapers on dietary advices are mis represented like the ones on computer science and ICT, it's normal that people gets it wrong.



I am sure that most people here following LCHF is going ok because is way more diet aware than most of the general population, and this could be the 70% of success rate. The other 30% is that LCHF or Mediterranean are more easy to follow than standard dieting advice or DASH diet. Because skimmed milk tastest awful and a couple of glass ow ine in Sunday makes you happier, because.

I know a nice woman that was overweight and decided to get a diet prom aprofessional dietist, she's now acid like a stepmother bitten by ticks if you even siggest that full regular yoghurt has less calories than the 0% fat one with cereals and doesn't taste like wet cardboard.

 

[Oldvatr]

Read the report above. It mentions weight loss constantly all the way through. The participants almost all lost weight, and almost all reduced their liver size and their NAFLD if they had it. It works in the same way as ND except that it stretches over a much longer period. Nothing whatsoever wrong with a weight loss diet whichever macronutrient(s) you cut down on. Good luck to all the participants and Dr Unwin. Unwin saved a lot of money for the NHS from helping his patients lose weight. Good for him.

OK the weight loss was an average of 8.8kg over a measured period of 13 months, which works out at around 0.67kg per month. In terms of diets for weight loss this is relatively slow, and the report calls it 'significant' but not outstanding. The term reducing is mentioned 4 times in the report, for GGT, HBA1c, Cholesterol, and yes weight. But weight loss does not dominate the report as you interpret it. There is one section covering weight. Please read that report carefully.

Edit to add: My wife has been using the same LC diet that I use for the same period, and she has now lost 4 stones in weight which is just over 25 kg. And She is allowed to snack and top up on carbs and have 2nd helpings, which I do not. I myself have lost over 15 kg, but then I am closely monitoring and making adjustments to stabilise at a BMI of around 21.

 

[ickihun]

I have used low carb and ive lost 20kgs in 9mths. 3.5stones approx.
I have severe difficulty losing weight with an underactive thyroid to slow weight lose even more. If I didnt have thyroid dysfunction id have lost more? Maybe.
Low carb is the answer for me too @Tannith .
Ive been overweight with diabetic symptoms for 40yrs and only lost if exercised like a profession athlete and ate like a baby. Then with now diet pills not healthy I got to 15.5stones. The lowest I could achieve for ivf treatment. It nearly killed me emotionally as when professor stopped metformin I added 2st in the ivf cycle. So it failed.

 

[Glenmac]

My reply to the OPs question.....evidence that the eat well plate is wrong, is that when diagnosed with a Hbc of 63 I was told absolutely no hope for me to try diet alone,very urgent for me to have tablets (Metformin) and follow eat well type eating plan.....nothing with a high sugar content,porridge etc etc.....Over the next 15 years my weight gradually crept higher despite trying to lose weight.I had only been a stone overweight at diagnosis!
My Hb results and blood pressure went higher and more medication was added.In 2016 I was on 3 Metformin a day,plus Gliclazide and three tablets for high blood pressure plus statins.
I began the low carb programme in Sept 2016..............weight,BP and Hb all gradually improved.I had my results from the recent tests last week.My Hb is now 42 blood pressure almost on target and my BMI 25.8.For me low carbing is working.My DN, has given me a meter and strips,and I buy the extra I need. I've been taken off Glicazide and the Metformin is reduced to two daily.I am 79 so there is hope for us oldies, perhaps this will give encouragement to the newly diagnosed!
From the My Diabetes my way site Scotland I have a print out of my results.When I learn how to, I will transfer it to this site it makes interesting reading!I still consider myself to be a work in progress.The shoes in my avatar remind me that I value my feet more than cake!

 

[Mbaker]

These are the questions I ask myself about the Eatwell plate and similar (these are generalisations circa 80 / 20 rule):

1. What was the position before the Eatwell plate and its for-runners with respect to world health
2. What was the catalyst for the dietary advice
3. Was the dietary advice based on solid evidence / science
4. What happens in the short, medium and long term to persons who eat similar to the Eatwell plate

There are many more answers to questions that for me conclusively show that eating circa 50% (not the purported circa 30%, as we all know some of the other segments have carbs (a disgraceful misrepresentation)) carbs at each meal is harmful. Not withstanding the answers to the above points, the fact that athletes can become pre-diabetic / diabetic on high carb, the "spike" in pre-diabetics / diabetics circa 1977 and for me the extremely worrying evidence which came out of Japan that circa 20% of "normal" weight individuals who had "normal" blood sugars had severe diabetic number spikes when consuming high carbs (they did show that by eating vegetables first or steak the spike could be mitigated, but who would save their rice to the end of the meal?); on one of the tests a spike to 12 was recorded. The cut off point was 7.7 mmol to be considered a spike. I suspect if the same tests were conducted throughout the Eatwell universe, similar results would be had - Japanese are not a special case.

 

[Tannith]

These are the questions I ask myself about the Eatwell plate and similar (these are generalisations circa 80 / 20 rule):

1. What was the position before the Eatwell plate and its for-runners with respect to world health
2. What was the catalyst for the dietary advice
3. Was the dietary advice based on solid evidence / science
4. What happens in the short, medium and long term to persons who eat similar to the Eatwell plate

There are many more answers to questions that for me conclusively show that eating circa 50% (not the purported circa 30%, as we all know some of the other segments have carbs (a disgraceful misrepresentation)) carbs at each meal is harmful. Not withstanding the answers to the above points, the fact that athletes can become pre-diabetic / diabetic on high carb, the "spike" in pre-diabetics / diabetics circa 1977 and for me the extremely worrying evidence which came out of Japan that circa 20% of "normal" weight individuals who had "normal" blood sugars had severe diabetic number spikes when consuming high carbs (they did show that by eating vegetables first or steak the spike could be mitigated, but who would save their rice to the end of the meal?); on one of the tests a spike to 12 was recorded. The cut off point was 7.7 mmol to be considered a spike. I suspect if the same tests were conducted throughout the Eatwell universe, similar results would be had - Japanese are not a special case.

Can you refer me to the Japanese study please?

 

[Mbaker]

Can you refer me to the Japanese study please?

Here it is:

 

[badcat]

I think there are probably a number of issues re the Japanese experience
Japanese diet has always revolved around rice, noodles, fish, tofu and vegetables, some below and some above ground. For very many years the culture was very insular and to some extent still is, although this has decreased massively over the last 20-25 years
. The major shift that has happened in Japanese culture over the last 20- 30 years been the increased cultural openness and adoption of western influences, particilarly in dietary terms with massive increases in processed, sugary food items. The fact that this shift has ossurred at the same time as increased rates of obesity and metabolic disorders mirrors what hs happened with indiginous people in the south pacific and other areas where traditional diets have been overtaken by western diet
By the Western diet I am referring to things like Coke, Candy highly sweetened, artificlly produced "ready meals etc not to the eat well plate. The higher % carbs on the eat well plate compared to carb restriction is probably too great for many, but not all, diabetics ( mostly but again not all T2) but is unlikely to be the cause of the initial metabolic dysregulation that underlies T2 - Im sure that that is 100% attributable to the rise is ****, denatured foods both low and high carb, in the modern (sic) western diet
Conflating the eat well plate and nutritionally **** processed food is a significant error

 

[Tannith]

OK the weight loss was an average of 8.8kg over a measured period of 13 months, which works out at around 0.67kg per month. In terms of diets for weight loss this is relatively slow, and the report calls it 'significant' but not outstanding. The term reducing is mentioned 4 times in the report, for GGT, HBA1c, Cholesterol, and yes weight. But weight loss does not dominate the report as you interpret it. There is one section covering weight. Please read that report carefully.

Edit to add: My wife has been using the same LC diet that I use for the same period, and she has now lost 4 stones in weight which is just over 25 kg. And She is allowed to snack and top up on carbs and have 2nd helpings, which I do not. I myself have lost over 15 kg, but then I am closely monitoring and making adjustments to stabilise at a BMI of around 21.

I am looking for a weight loss/reducing diet that will work quite fast. The reason being that the ND does not always work for people who have had T2 for more than 4 years. I am doing ND at the moment but although I am nearly at the beginning of week 8 it is obvious that I shall not lose the full 15% of my weight unless I continue it for another 8 weeks or more, or else find a similar weight loss diet that will work faster.I have had T2 symptoms for at least 4 years so I don't want to delay getting liver fat off in case, if I leave it too long,ND or any liver fat loss diet can no longer work because too many beta cells will have died.

 

[Tannith]

Here it is:

Amazing! Thank you so much for posting.

 

[busydiabeticmum]

I am looking for a weight loss/reducing diet that will work quite fast. The reason being that the ND does not always work for people who have had T2 for more than 4 years. I am doing ND at the moment but although I am nearly at the beginning of week 8 it is obvious that I shall not lose the full 15% of my weight unless I continue it for another 8 weeks or more, or else find a similar weight loss diet that will work faster.I have had T2 symptoms for at least 4 years so I don't want to delay getting liver fat off in case, if I leave it too long,ND or any liver fat loss diet can no longer work because too many beta cells will have died.

Look... there is no one size fits all... but show me the results of the healthy living plate and how many people on it have no.1 lost weight and no.2 reversed their diabetes enough to reduce medication?
There are foods on the lc diet that disagree with me and raise my Bgl and that also depends on the time of day!
How much weight you lose and how quickly will depend on the individual, as well as how quickly Bgl get under control.

I was diagnosed with hba1c of 85 in April of 2016, I was on on the healthy eating plate for a month and then went low carb. I was retested in June and received an hba1c of 48! Now if you said it could be a combination of diet change etc you would be wrong because my Bgl did not come down until I went low carb and didn't start losing weight until 2nd month of low carbing. I also insisted on a 3rd hba1c which happened in September 2016 which was 31... only 4 months after diagnosis. I lost 20kg in that 4 month time period but then plateaued ... I have put on 5kg since then (pregnancy) however I have managed to keep a hba1c of 32.
There is a huge and growing evidence that the healthy living plate does not work for people like me... there is also a growing evidence that lchf works and is forcing the medical community to accept these results... that is that hundreds of thousands of people like myself are stabilising, reversing their condition which before was unimaginable on the healthy living plate.

Just because they haven't "surveyed" it and studied it doesn't mean it isn't happening and doesn't exist... what we do need to say though is that whatever they settle on needs to be flexible enough to work for all people, by which I mean testing after each meal to see what foods work for that INDIVIDUAL. Just an FYI my husband can eat chocolate covered waffles smothered in custard, not put on weight and not have a spike AT ALL in his Bgl while I put on weight watching him eat it!!! So again what works for one does not work for all... if you are looking for what works best for you, I would advise you buy a test kit (codefree is good) keep a diary log and test before and hourly after each meal... there is no other way to see what your body is doing and how it is coping with a certain food that may be classed as OK on every diet but not OK for you. You may also discover that intermittent fasting helps which will also give your beta cells time to recoup and recover from years of abuse and damage... that also depends on your body.

 

[Art Of Flowers]

Here it is:

Looks like glucose spikes are a major cause of diabetes, heart disease, dementia and cancer.

If this is true, then low carb diets would have huge benefits for the general population.

 

[Mbaker]

I am looking for a weight loss/reducing diet that will work quite fast. The reason being that the ND does not always work for people who have had T2 for more than 4 years. I am doing ND at the moment but although I am nearly at the beginning of week 8 it is obvious that I shall not lose the full 15% of my weight unless I continue it for another 8 weeks or more, or else find a similar weight loss diet that will work faster.I have had T2 symptoms for at least 4 years so I don't want to delay getting liver fat off in case, if I leave it too long,ND or any liver fat loss diet can no longer work because too many beta cells will have died.

It is a great study and informative with due credit to @kokhongw for originally posting.

 

[caroline_92]

Try eating the eatwell plate & measure your post meal blood sugars then compare to a low carb diet - should be all the evidence you need! If it doesn't make a difference then you are not diabetic, prediabetic and may not even have any diabetic genetic predisposition...

 

[Fleegle]

I realise this might be controversial - isn't it all just about losing weight?
Is there anyone here who has a much better self controlled BG level yet has not lost any weight? And I wonder whether the most controlled have also lost the most weight?

The great thing about LCHF is that you feel very satisfied and not hungry and the fat does not make you fat. Then there are VLCD diets. The ones that do not work are the ones where you do not lose weight - aren't they?