What is the evidence that the eatwell plate is wrong?

[Oldvatr]

Surely the food group mix is the same for everyone? 60% carbohydrate, 30% fat and 10% protein as I recall from my days as an endurance athlete when nutrition was everything. Obviously if you're not exercising then you can reduce the carbs as any excess will be stored as body fat.

https://www.bhf.org.uk/heart-matters-magazine/nutrition/changes-to-the-eatwell-guide

 

[serenity648]

I still think that the change in wheat is having an effect on our bodies and insulin. So we could be eating the same amount of wheat, but the denser new wheat, that has been around since the 1960's, is affecting our bodies in a different and more harmful way.
https://www.healthline.com/nutrition/modern-wheat-health-nightmare#section2

 

[Art Of Flowers]

What you are saying is not correct - as you could see in the linked documents,calorie consumption is increased while total fat consumption remained the same and increased compared with '70s values
source
https://www.ers.usda.gov/webdocs/publications/42215/5836_aib750g_1_.pdf?v=41055

Nutrient Unit 1970 1994 %change
Food energy Calories 3,300 3,800 15
Carbohydrates Grams 386 491 27
Protein “ 95 110 16
Total fat “ 154 159 3
Saturated fatty
acids “ 54 52 -4
Monounsaturated
fatty acids “ 63 65 2
Polyunsaturated
fatty acids “ 26 31 19
Cholesterol Milligrams 470 410 -13

There are also a lot of statistical data on this site:
https://www.ers.usda.gov/data-products/food-availability-per-capita-data-system/

This .xls file contains a statistic on food trend in the USA, you could clearly see that the mean caloric intake peaked in 2003 with 4200 calories/day with 200 grams of total fat eaten by day that are more than the 147 grams in 1971 for 3300 calories/day.

Some more stats ... http://wholehealthsource.blogspot.co.uk/2012/09/more-thoughts-on-macronutrient-trends.html

The modern "obesity epidemic" began in earnest between the 1976-1980 and 1988-1994 NHANES survey periods, and corresponded with an increase in calorie intake. According to the adjusted data, this increase was 350 calories per day since 1970. 65 percent of the increase in calories can be attributed to carbohydrate, 24 percent can be attributed to fat, and 11 percent to protein.​

 

[kokhongw]

https://www.bhf.org.uk/heart-matters-magazine/nutrition/changes-to-the-eatwell-guide

The reality is that when T2D follows the Eatwell Guide/Plate and don't get any better...the evidence is being denied. The failure of the decades of low fat dietary guidance has always been blamed on lack of adherence or complaince...never on the uselessness of the guidance.

When we get well by NOT following the Eatwell Guide/Plate...the evidence is ALSO being denied. As we have often seen in threads here, many who successfully reduced their HbA1c are then admonished to abandon our foolish "unhealthy" non-nutritional ways to comply to the trusted Eatwell way...such is the tragic magnitude of the cognitive dissonance that plague the medical/nutritional institutions entrusted to guard our health today.

We remain the few unicorns who have taken the red pill to remain in Wonderland.

 

[Oldvatr]

I still think that the change in wheat is having an effect on our bodies and insulin. So we could be eating the same amount of wheat, but the denser new wheat, that has been around since the 1960's, is affecting our bodies in a different and more harmful way.
https://www.healthline.com/nutrition/modern-wheat-health-nightmare#section2

This may be a contributory factor, but I do not think it is an explanation for what is happening. If it was the sole cause of the obesity or T2 epidemics, then one could reverse the trend simply by eliminating wheat products from our diet, and would not need to go vlc or LC at all. It would simplify the process beautifully, but only in dreamland, I fear.

 

[Resurgam]

One factor which might be making a difference to Humans has been seen in populations of various animals eating mostly plants. The increase in carbon dioxide is altering the growth rate of plants so it is faster - sometimes resulting in blooms of algae or other unusual phenomena.
You might think that is great - more plants means more food for herbivores and omnivores, but the quality of the plants as food is affected, the micronutrients they would contain when growing at lower concentrations of carbon dioxide are depleted when there is greater demand. People studying the oddities have noted that the animals which are taking advantage of them can become unwell, or in some cases die. There was conjecture that it was the food source dying and polluting the area, but then analysis showed that even the micro organisms which would normally happily eat the dead things were not flourishing.
As we eat a variety of plants and animals it might be thought that the change would not affect us much - but the types of food plants and animals we do eat seem to be those most affected by the alteration.

 

[Mbaker]

I think there are probably a number of issues re the Japanese experience
Japanese diet has always revolved around rice, noodles, fish, tofu and vegetables, some below and some above ground. For very many years the culture was very insular and to some extent still is, although this has decreased massively over the last 20-25 years
. The major shift that has happened in Japanese culture over the last 20- 30 years been the increased cultural openness and adoption of western influences, particilarly in dietary terms with massive increases in processed, sugary food items. The fact that this shift has ossurred at the same time as increased rates of obesity and metabolic disorders mirrors what hs happened with indiginous people in the south pacific and other areas where traditional diets have been overtaken by western diet
By the Western diet I am referring to things like Coke, Candy highly sweetened, artificlly produced "ready meals etc not to the eat well plate. The higher % carbs on the eat well plate compared to carb restriction is probably too great for many, but not all, diabetics ( mostly but again not all T2) but is unlikely to be the cause of the initial metabolic dysregulation that underlies T2 - Im sure that that is 100% attributable to the rise is ****, denatured foods both low and high carb, in the modern (sic) western diet
Conflating the eat well plate and nutritionally **** processed food is a significant error

A well put together response, with many truths which I would say actually put more power to the elbow of the thrust of my point. To explain, the noodles used traditionally were significantly lower carb (can't remember the name off the top of my head). The facts remain and are really not disputable that carbs realistically are the only food which spike blood sugars, raise insulin and have a side effect in a modern context of laying down fat.

I disagree that it is a conflation to compare the Eatwell Guide to processed rubbish. On examination the guide says to eat whole grain cereals - Special K Original 84 grams of carbs per 100, Kellogg's Corn Flakes 74 grams per 100, Shreddies 71 grams per 100, Alpen (no added sugar) 65, Pasta circa 25 grams to 40, Rice circa 25 grams plus, Bagels 49 grams etc. This type of food for me comes into the over processed category; it takes 9 square feet of wheat to make 4 cups of flour, this concentration is one of the reasons for the high GI / G Load. Potatoes were originally poisonous to humans, and rice has the most amount of arsenic of any food, and pasta is made mostly of Durum flour. I think the majority of mankind would be much healthier if the entire right hand side quadrant of the Eatwell Guide was gone - compare the weight losses of diabetics and non-diabetics who do not use the right hand side. We are now beginning to see tests on non-diabetics who eat "normally" and the Japanese study appeared unbiased and compelling.

I agree with your points on the obvious processed and junk foods and that these have coincided in time frame with the Eatwell guide so it is hard to attribute all the badness to the Eatwell guide, but remember the forerunner to the Eatwell guide was the Eatwell plate which promoted even more garbage. I have researched many of the indigenous diets and what seems a common trait is that in general when carbs were in the mix they tended to be one or 2 types, not a domination and that treats were seasonal. This site I believe is the most popular in the world for diabetics, I have not seen any success stories, reversals and the like using the Eatwell guide, the closest I have seen is low calorie Newcastle Diets where I measured the carbs at circa 75 grams across a days meals.

 

[Oldvatr]

One factor which might be making a difference to Humans has been seen in populations of various animals eating mostly plants. The increase in carbon dioxide is altering the growth rate of plants so it is faster - sometimes resulting in blooms of algae or other unusual phenomena.
You might think that is great - more plants means more food for herbivores and omnivores, but the quality of the plants as food is affected, the micronutrients they would contain when growing at lower concentrations of carbon dioxide are depleted when there is greater demand. People studying the oddities have noted that the animals which are taking advantage of them can become unwell, or in some cases die. There was conjecture that it was the food source dying and polluting the area, but then analysis showed that even the micro organisms which would normally happily eat the dead things were not flourishing.
As we eat a variety of plants and animals it might be thought that the change would not affect us much - but the types of food plants and animals we do eat seem to be those most affected by the alteration.

Where on Earth did this come from?????? And how is it connected to the OP? Sorry, I can believe that overfarming can depelete the nitrogen food nutrients in the soil, and climate change is killing off plankton, but I don't follow the connection to CO2 speeding up the plant growth. Where is the science?

The company I worked for used to generate biomass using algae to convert into biofuel for aircraft, and successfully flew a passenger plane across the Atlantic on a tankfull of it, They are also turning CO2 and water into petrol substitute using just solar power, and there are algae farms producing proteins for feeding livestock, so not all algae is bad for us. I have more concern over the antibiotics and hormones being fed to animals which gets into the foodchain. In my area they had to do a load of Moob removals due to a growth hormone in beef feedstock, and someone close to me had to have that op because of it.

 

[tim2000s]

I don't follow the connection to CO2 speeding up the plant growth. Where is the science?

This is the news story: http://www.politico.com/agenda/story/2017/09/13/food-nutrients-carbon-dioxide-000511

And this is the initial paper that the author wrote: http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0169534702025879

You can find more of his work here: https://scholar.google.com/citations?user=8ZkUPbIAAAAJ

 

[phoenix]

re High Glucose Fructose syrup aka isoglucose in Europe ( it can be derived from wheat) The earlier graph has little relevance to Europe since it's production was limited by a quota .This quota was part of the Common Agricultural Policy to protect the European sugar beet industry; not for any health reasons. The use of HGFS or isoglucose Europe has been far lower in the EU than the US so can't be associated with obesity in the same way as in the US

This quota was lifted at the beginning of October. It was linked with the removal of the production caps + minimum prices to farmers of sugar beet but there will be tariffs on cane sugar from outside the EU.
https://www.foodnavigator.com/Artic...ar-users-switch-to-isoglucose-when-quotas-end
So a scenario where more and cheaper beet sugar can be grown in Europe and isoglucose will be more freely available. ( and the big American companies expanding production within Europe)

What happens now in the UK will depend on whose voice is loudest and carries most influence. Will health get a look in?
This is from a food industry point of view (published yesterday)
http://ingredientnews.com/articles/end-eu-sugar-quotas-beet-gets-free-reign-cane-will-take-beating/

 

[Oldvatr]

This is the news story: http://www.politico.com/agenda/story/2017/09/13/food-nutrients-carbon-dioxide-000511

And this is the initial paper that the author wrote: http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0169534702025879

You can find more of his work here: https://scholar.google.com/citations?user=8ZkUPbIAAAAJ

Thank you Tim. I had been responding to a post by @Resurgam who wrote
<<<<You might think that is great - more plants means more food for herbivores and omnivores, but the quality of the plants as food is affected, the micronutrients they would contain when growing at lower concentrations of carbon dioxide are depleted when there is greater demand.>>>>>

This ran contrary to my small understanding of the effects of mankind on earth resources, which is why I queried it.

The articles you linked to are interesting, but seem to be fixated in one direction only, and do not consider other effects that CO2 may have. I refer to the effect of increased absorbtion of CO2 in the oceans and lakes leading directly to an increaseing acidity of those resources. A change in ph value in the rainwater too will affect plants and make the soil acidic. Calcium and magnesium will be reduced by acid to their carbonate forms, and become less biovalent to plants. Iron too will be attacked and altered, possibly more to sulphates and oxides than carbonates, also less biovalent.

If the excess CO2 is making plants produce more sugars, then it must be something science can measure, and thus food processors could reduce their added sugar content(?) However the report I could access contains little evidence, and seems to be just a hypothesis or blog seeking support. I did not find it to be irrefutable, and it seemed incomplete.

For an alternative take on this, see this New Scientist article, which is also effectively a blog
https://www.newscientist.com/articl...-will-boost-plant-growth-and-food-production/

There is a better explanation for the science, including proper references, here:
https://www.nature.com/scitable/kno...atmospheric-concentrations-of-carbon-13254108

 

[Resurgam]

Oh - I had not thought of the pH of the soil altering the availability of minerals - but it must be a factor, though probably slower in its action. Ferric and Ferrous salts are going to affected - something for vegetarians to consider, and farmers grazing livestock in open fields.
Algae are useful things when farmed, but when out in the environment they just react to changes - and the carbon dioxide levels have risen a lot.
The mineral content of foods such as rice are measurably changed, and it is not just by selecting for yield.
Weeds are also measurably altered, and the collapse of honeybee colonies could possibly be be due to much lower levels of protein in the pollen.
The Eatwell plate might be OK just about when the carbohydrate foods can be eaten with proteins and fats and maybe a vitamin and mineral supplement - but the amount of overall nutrition in carby foods should be tested to see how it is reducing.

 

[MikeTurin]

Or simply the industrial food processing and even the artisan techniques have changed a lot.
I've seen that on me whole wheat bread from a posh bakery that uses old this and traditional that costs 5 €/kg doesn't make me spike the BG ather 2 hours, but the 2€/kg whole wheat bread from the supermarket makes me spiking hard, and tastes worse and is more *****, by the way.

 

[Oldvatr]

Oh - I had not thought of the pH of the soil altering the availability of minerals - but it must be a factor, though probably slower in its action. Ferric and Ferrous salts are going to affected - something for vegetarians to consider, and farmers grazing livestock in open fields.
Algae are useful things when farmed, but when out in the environment they just react to changes - and the carbon dioxide levels have risen a lot.
The mineral content of foods such as rice are measurably changed, and it is not just by selecting for yield.
Weeds are also measurably altered, and the collapse of honeybee colonies could possibly be be due to much lower levels of protein in the pollen.
The Eatwell plate might be OK just about when the carbohydrate foods can be eaten with proteins and fats and maybe a vitamin and mineral supplement - but the amount of overall nutrition in carby foods should be tested to see how it is reducing.

One advantage that Eatwell may offer over an LC diet is that some foods based on wheat flour or cereals are artificially fortified for calcium and iron, and folate and B12. Meat products such as chicken get extras too but mainly cosmetic than nutritional, but also retain some vetinary interventions that prevent some animal conditions.

Certainly in my lifetime I have noticed changes in the quality of modern foods, such as milk, bread, eggs, but I put it down to mass production and batch farming methods. Although algae can be farmed usefully, most are cyanotoxic, and harmful. They thrive under poor conditions, and are not really considered as food. The algae blooms we see reported tend to be related to flood damage. runoff from farms, fertilisers with high nitrogen content, etc, and as a reaction to stagnant pollution,

The other aspect that seems to have altered is the frequency of thunderstorms. It is known that lightning plays a major part in the fixation of nitrogen into useful compounds used by plants, and this is also why farmers have to add man-made fertiliser in large quantities to augment that natural process. Now we get more rainstorms instead, and this gives a big washout effect that removes the nitrogen nutrients and topsoil, The increase CO2 also seems to reduce the uptake of nitrogen by plants, so using traditional crop cycling to replenish the land is not so effective, hence the annual muckspreading using sewage has become a major source of fertiliser, and the annual pong,

 

[serenity648]

Or simply the industrial food processing and even the artisan techniques have changed a lot.
I've seen that on me whole wheat bread from a posh bakery that uses old this and traditional that costs 5 €/kg doesn't make me spike the BG ather 2 hours, but the 2€/kg whole wheat bread from the supermarket makes me spiking hard, and tastes worse and is more *****, by the way.

I agree. I can eat wholemeal bread made the slow way by my husband. It is made with organic stoneground flour, and proved twice at room temperature before baking. The yeast is either fresh (free from the bakery counter at tesco) or the dried sort without flour improvers etc.

Supermarket wholemeal bread, even the organic stuff, spikes me.

 

[serenity648]

One advantage that Eatwell may offer over an LC diet is that some foods based on wheat flour or cereals are artificially fortified for calcium and iron, and folate and B12. Meat products such as chicken get extras too but mainly cosmetic than nutritional, but also retain some vetinary interventions that prevent some animal conditions.

Certainly in my lifetime I have noticed changes in the quality of modern foods, such as milk, bread, eggs, but I put it down to mass production and batch farming methods. Although algae can be farmed usefully, most are cyanotoxic, and harmful. They thrive under poor conditions, and are not really considered as food. The algae blooms we see reported tend to be related to flood damage. runoff from farms, fertilisers with high nitrogen content, etc, and as a reaction to stagnant pollution,

The other aspect that seems to have altered is the frequency of thunderstorms. It is known that lightning plays a major part in the fixation of nitrogen into useful compounds used by plants, and this is also why farmers have to add man-made fertiliser in large quantities to augment that natural process. Now we get more rainstorms instead, and this gives a big washout effect that removes the nitrogen nutrients and topsoil, The increase CO2 also seems to reduce the uptake of nitrogen by plants, so using traditional crop cycling to replenish the land is not so effective, hence the annual muckspreading using sewage has become a major source of fertiliser, and the annual pong,

I live in a farming community and the local farmers have been talking about this this week. Especially the heavy, brief downpours, then very little rain for weeks, and fewer thunderstorms.

 

[Hotpepper20000]

I agree. I can eat wholemeal bread made the slow way by my husband. It is made with organic stoneground flour, and proved twice at room temperature before baking. The yeast is either fresh (free from the bakery counter at tesco) or the dried sort without flour improvers etc.

Supermarket wholemeal bread, even the organic stuff, spikes me.

I make a no knead bread with very little dry yeast at work.
I mix all the ingredients and let it sit for 24 hours.
Throw it in a oven proof pot with a lid and bake it.
As a treat once in while I have a slice. It doesn't spike me as does store bought.

 

[ExChocoholic]

Only with help of endochronologist who I requested to see. He thinks I may have LADA as opposed to T2 because metformin not working - now on 40mg of gliclazide a day plus 4 x 250 SR mg metformin (which goes under name sukkarto now). Fasting BS yesterday 6. 4 - forgot my Metformin last night after dinner - Fasting at 9.4 today. Aiming to get onto 5s or even 4s - must try harder! But my BS fasting had climbed to 12, 16 and 18s. Very scary!

 

[ExChocoholic]

I am on 4 x metformin SR and 40g gliclazide - the latter helped not eat well.

Do you feel that Eatwell is helping you? I see you only list an oral med, so have you managed to reduce your bgl now?

 

[ExChocoholic]

BTW carbs affect my BS levels more than sweet things