Trying to Gain Weight on LCHF

[Oldvatr]

The rosedale diet is based on leptin. You may find it very interesting. I sure did.
Can I ask how many grams of protein you eat in a day?
Rosedale also talks about the mTOR pathway. He advises .6-.75 g per kg of LEAN body mass. Puts me between 30-37 and that's what my bs likes too. I am no longer losing weight but status quo

I don't actually weigh my protein since I am not on insulin. I go by portion control. So if I have a meal that spikes me, and I suspect its due to protein i.e. spike is at 4hrs PP then I make a note in my meal chart to try again with reduced portion, and if this repeat has no spike then I mark this too, so I know next time how to play things. So my main example is ham salad where twice I had spikes on 4 slices, but repeat with only 2 slices has had no spike, so I now know not to exceed 2 slices. I have found 1 small mackerel from one supplier is fine, but once had 1.5 portion which bumped me so now I limit myself to 1 helping. Mackerel in a tin I found half a tin was ok, a complete tin was over my limit, Trial and error for me and it works.
But some proteins are fine. medium tin of pilchards or sild, and I hypo an hour later with no 4hr pp spike at all. 4 babybels in a sitting not detectable. Large portion of LC beef lasagne is ok with either mince or Quorn. Large pizza serving on almond base with mozzarella, soft cheese and loads of salami or pepperoni is fine

 

[Oldvatr]

As the OP I think I have the right to request a detour in the thread if I have a supplementary question that is related to the original topic. It could be placed in a new thread, but there is much already discussed here that would need to be repeated or it wouldn't make sense. The question I pose is 'what happens to the Fat?'

All body cells (apart from brain cells and nerve cells) have the ability to store glucose and water to save for the rainy days. This mechanism is well described by the Krebs (Citric) Cycle, and uses insulin and adreniline as the primary control hormones. This mechanism is quite well documented and understood for the Glucose pathway. So - eat too many carbs, and either gain weight or go into ketoacidosis, depending on how well the insulin mechanism is working. Cut carbs, and lose glucose and water, leading to weight loss and possibility of hypo.
Then step in ketosis as the backup. Body switches to fat burning mode, Takes fatty acids in the bloodstream and uses them instead of glucose. Needs fat in diet to supply these fatty acids. Too few FA, then body starts to raid fat stores, and also body muscle which also loses weight.
Then there is another safety trick our body can do which is to synthesise glucose from protein and spare fat But this is not very efficient.
So on LCHF we cut carbs, and this depletes our glucogen stores. Then it is anticipated that we go into ketosis and reduce fat stores too. If we up the carbs, then our bgl rises. If we up the protein then our bgl rises. Solution is apparently to go on insulin to improve the glucogen storage so our bgl drops (aka Dr. Bernstein). We have evidence that upping the fat does not necessarily replace the fat lost from the fat stores during ketosis. Hence my question
If we over eat fat, i.e. more than we burn in ketosis, then where does it go? Apparently we do not store it since that would increase weight, which apparently is not happening. So how do we get fat stores in the first place? and what mechanism gets rid of excess triglicerides? We know from most ly experience that LCHF apparently drops the Trig count (but not for everybody) so where is it all going if it is not stored back in the adipocytes or held in the blood.
I have not seen any answers for this. Dr Bernstein changed his mind based on what he observed, but I have not seen him offer any explanattion as to why. Other endocrinologists spout on about cholestrol being used by cells, but do not describe the fat storage process. We do not see discussions of fat being excreted via the bile duct in any increased amount. Where did it all go? Why can't I put on weight when I cut carbs?

 

[Daibell]

Hi again and thanks for the feedback from Kristin and Bluetit ref proteins and the conversion to glucose. This really does point to a difference in the way we each react to taking protein. There is obviously an effect when taken with fat and I also wonder whether the type of protein is relevant? BTW with regard to the effect of high protein and kidney damage, my wife saw an excellent NHS nephrologist yesterday as her creatinine levels were a bit high together with a thinning cortex. We discussed that she was having high protein and fat on a low-carb diet (for weight not diabetes) and he said it was fine but don't go too mad. The implication was that protein damage was not a big issue at least for most of us.

 

[Oldvatr]

Hi again and thanks for the feedback from Kristin and Bluetit ref proteins and the conversion to glucose. This really does point to a difference in the way we each react to taking protein. There is obviously an effect when taken with fat and I also wonder whether the type of protein is relevant? BTW with regard to the effect of high protein and kidney damage, my wife saw an excellent NHS nephrologist yesterday as her creatinine levels were a bit high together with a thinning cortex. We discussed that she was having high protein and fat on a low-carb diet (for weight not diabetes) and he said it was fine but don't go too mad. The implication was that protein damage was not a big issue at least for most of us.

I think the 80g protein is a recommendation, but long term stress on the kidneys should be avoided where possible. To go back to an earlier posting, if conversion of protein to glucose is only 10% efficient, then 80g of protein would synthesise to 8 g of carb equivalent, which is a significant proportion of RDA for someone on <20g per day.

 

[SunnyExpat]

The question you need to think about, if a race like the inuit, on fat and protein diet apparently, sometimes lost weight, how do they put it back on?
It's not hard to answer.
The human body can synthesize any of the three food groups into the required fuel.
This includes synthesizing glucose.
Evolution has designed the body well, in any glut, it'll store reserves, regardless of what it started as.

As for the protein, Prof Taylor summed that up, as when you strip off the nitrogen, you end up with basic glucose chains, so it gets treated in a similar way.
As a norm, the body converts glucose into fats, (triglycerides), we do some interesting stuff when we digest.

 

[SunnyExpat]

An interesting discussion from a few years ago
http://www.marksdailyapple.com/forum/thread29812.html

 

[Kristin251]

I think the 80g protein is a recommendation, but long term stress on the kidneys should be avoided where possible. To go back to an earlier posting, if conversion of protein to glucose is only 10% efficient, then 80g of protein would synthesise to 8 g of carb equivalent, which is a significant proportion of RDA for someone on <20g per day.

I agree that would be significant. I also think it's cumulative as well as dependant on how full my glycogen store are.
My kidney doc said two servings a day the size of your palm.
I also think there is a lot of validity to the mTOR pathway and excess protein being the pathway to cancer, diabetes and other diseases.

Good question about where excess fat goes if not to weight gain after we're done fueling ourselves. I never really thought about it after just using it for ketones and fuel. The body is a miraculous machine

 

[JohnEGreen]

Well you've got me stumped I know at one point I did get concerned that my weight was plummeting and was not sure I could control it so I added protein and upped my fats and did in fact put weight back on but I have found out that there is such a thing as protein toxicity and so you cant just keep raising your protein intake indefinitely some thing I had not considered till then.

 

[Oldvatr]

I agree that would be significant. I also think it's cumulative as well as dependant on how full my glycogen store are.
My kidney doc said two servings a day the size of your palm.
I also think there is a lot of validity to the mTOR pathway and excess protein being the pathway to cancer, diabetes and other diseases.

Good question about where excess fat goes if not to weight gain after we're done fueling ourselves. I never really thought about it after just using it for ketones and fuel. The body is a miraculous machine

Getting warmer. The following article is sports related, but seems to tie up some of the loose ends, including the role of insulin in lipid storage.
http://www.sportsci.org/encyc/adipose/adipose.html
Seems that ultra low carb intake may not be enough to trigger insulin rise in blood, so storage function is compromised. Does anyone have any data on how the Sam Feltham trial affected the lipids? maybe 21 days was not long enough?

 

[Kristin251]

Getting warmer. The following article is sports related, but seems to tie up some of the loose ends, including the role of insulin in lipid storage.
http://www.sportsci.org/encyc/adipose/adipose.html
Seems that ultra low carb intake may not be enough to trigger insulin rise in blood, so storage function is compromised. Does anyone have any data on how the Sam Feltham trial affected the lipids? maybe 21 days was not long enough?

Interesting. I also know VLC causes gluconeogenisis to proceed rapidly. I rise just as fast with protein so I'm sure some of its converted for fuel. Even if I over eat protein and my bs goes up it still takes a few days to bring it down. So I am thinking more on the lines of full glycogen store vs IR. If I eat carbs and bs goes up I can bring it down and keep it down but excess fat and protein it will come down with a bolus but will creep back up.
I've also read gluconeogenisis will proceed rapidly in diabetics as well, not just low carbers. I guess we have to pick our battles.

 

[SunnyExpat]

Interesting. I also know VLC causes gluconeogenisis to proceed rapidly. I rise just as fast with protein so I'm sure some of its converted for fuel. Even if I over eat protein and my bs goes up it still takes a few days to bring it down. So I am thinking more on the lines of full glycogen store vs IR. If I eat carbs and bs goes up I can bring it down and keep it down but excess fat and protein it will come down with a bolus but will creep back up.
I've also read gluconeogenisis will proceed rapidly in diabetics as well, not just low carbers. I guess we have to pick our battles.

There are certainly some interesting studies found on google for the question 'gluconeogenisis fat', before protein is added to the mix.
Protein certainly converts fairly easily.

 

[Kristin251]

There are certainly some interesting studies found on google for the question 'gluconeogenisis fat', before protein is added to the mix.
Protein certainly converts fairly easily.

Could you explain it to me in laymans terms so I don't have to try to decifer it please?

 

[SunnyExpat]

Could you explain it to me in laymans terms so I don't have to try to decifer it please?

There are a multitude of ways the body can convert fat into glucose, then store that as fat in the body.
But it's an ongoing study.

Protein is a cert to convert into glucose.

 

[Kristin251]

It wasn't until recently that I cut fat to lose a few pounds. I was eating A LOT though. I couldn't get my insulin right without it. Then I reduced fat and insulin and saw the dramatic effect fat had on bs/ insulin. Prior to this I ate lots of fat and didn't gain weight. Now I eat the same meals with a normal amount of fat rather than gobbling it. BS is better now too. Same with digestion
Thank you sunny

 

[Oldvatr]

There are a multitude of ways the body can convert fat into glucose, then store that as fat in the body.
But it's an ongoing study.

Protein is a cert to convert into glucose.

Glucose is not a fat. Glucogen in the blood is also not fat, and it gets stored as glucogen. Both of these are glycerols which are esters. fats get stored as fatty acids (FA) They are packaged for transport in the blood as triglycerides which are packets of FA wrapped up in a bubble of glycerol, which is why carbs are also involved in lipid activity. In extreme circumstances, the process of gluconeogenesis can convert either protein or fat to glucose( just for the brain and neurons). It is is the process of lipogenesis that creates the lipids, but although this can also synthesise fats from glucose, this is very much a last resort, as it takes a lot of energy to do.

It is unusual for gluconeogenesis to be triggered except when bgl levels are low simply because it is a protection system for the brain coz the brain cannot use fat for energy, and relies on there being some glucogen (or ketones) around. This is why we get brain fog when suffering a hypo since the think tank is becoming impaired, and gluconeogenesis is inefficient.

 

[Kristin251]

Actually from what I have read the brain thrives in ketones, from fat.
By glucogen do you mean glycogen or glucagon? I have never heard of glucogen but certainly not saying there isn't such a thing

I would love for you to explain why protein will raise me as much and as fast as carbs if I don't gluconeogenisis fast.

I'm not questioning you but far more intrigued.

 

[Indy51]

I could be wrong, but I seem to recall reading/hearing that it takes about 4 times as long for excess protein to be converted to glucose after the body has extracted the protein it requires for essential bodily functions.

I think there's also an issue with too little protein as then the body will start breaking down lean muscle mass to create the glucose it needs if it's not getting it from the diet.

 

[Kristin251]

I could be wrong, but I seem to recall reading/hearing that it takes about 4 times as long for excess protein to be converted to glucose after the body has extracted the protein it requires for essential bodily functions.

'I couldn't be sure of course but I think that may be more true on a no. Keto diet. I seem to convert protein to bs fast and I'd add I do t like it haha. I love protein.

 

[Indy51]

'I couldn't be sure of course but I think that may be more true on a no. Keto diet. I seem to convert protein to bs fast and I'd add I do t like it haha. I love protein.

I think that part of the problem is we're comparing what happens in normal metabolism as described in textbooks with diabetics whose metabolism is basically screwed. My memory isn't that great at the moment and don't have time to search for references, but I think there are issues with Type 2 where the liver keeps pumping out glucose even when BG is already high - kind of like runaway gluconeogenesis. But yes, I think keto makes the protein conversion more efficient than in people who burn glucose as their primary fuel.

 

[Brunneria]

I think that part of the problem is we're comparing what happens in normal metabolism as described in textbooks with diabetics whose metabolism is basically screwed.

Definitely.

Plus, the fact that the first time I went fatadapted/keto was a struggle, but it gets easier each time I slip across the border, strongly suggests a degree of adaptation and increased efficiency with the process.

I get long, very low humps on my Libre after protein. Not a problem. They are very low compared with anything carby (less than a mmol/l at around 2.5-4 hours) - the only reason I see them at all is the Libre. Would never know they were there with prick testing.

Another point is that we actually notice things that non-d's don't.
Just as Libre users notice things that prick testers don't.
They happen to everyone (or many of us) but they just don't get observed - by researchers, by most diabetics, and most certainly by non-diabetic article writers.