I am a Compliant Diabetic ... really

[AM1874]

Friday 12th May: Day 1 of my 2 day structured education course - "Diabetes and You" .. runs for 2 hours today and 2 hours on 19th. I'm not sure how much can be covered in 2 x 2 hour sessions .. but, hey, I go because that's what the letter from the "expert DB team" told me to do.

So, 12 people booked on the course and 7 turn up .. me, another guy about 45 years old and 5 women aged, I guess, from 60 to 70, one of whom asked during the intro session .. "what time are we going to break for lunch?"

The course leader put up a couple of OHPs explaining the role of the pancreas and the flow of sugar in the bloodstream. This looked interesting .. so, after a minute or so, she took them down and immediately went on to diet being the most important element of DB management. Another minute or so (literally) and she introduced the dietician. This is the same "expert" with whom I had an appointment a few weeks ago .. and that went well

She spent about 40 minutes on a repeat performance of what she had covered at my appointment (Eatwell Plate .. starchy carbs .. yes, you can eat potatoes and bananas etc etc). When she had finished, the 45 year old raised the issue of research showing that DB could be reversed with LCHF and exercise. Her response, "not enough information .. too early to say .. no cure for DB .. its a progressive disease .. you're just going to have to learn to live with it. So, any questions?"

And that was it. Started at 2.00pm and finished at 3.05 .. but next week, we'll be covering blood pressure, cholesterol and weight loss .. so, that'll be good

I learned nothing that I didn't already know .. what was covered was at best, inappropriate .. and I was left wondering simply - why? But I am compliant and I was quite proud of the fact that I:
listened .. nodded .. smiled and said thankyou ..
and now I am ignoring

 

[bulkbiker]

So so sad though... a complete waste of time and money for all concerned topped off with bad advice that will self perpetuate and prove itself correct. Follow that advice and you will end up with a progressive condition.

 

[Avocado Sevenfold]

@AM1874 I don't get it. You have done well with lchf and exercise yourself, so why are you nodding and smiling instead of saying something?

 

[britishpub]

Other than extending the session from 65 minutes to 68 minutes I cannot see what that would achieve.

The "experts" have closed minds as do most of the general public.

 

[TooManyCrisps]

I went on a Desmond course last year. It was one day. That's a day of my annual leave wasted. The diabetic nurse told us that we shouldn't be testing with a meter unless we were on insulin "because it just makes people anxious". When I and another participant said that, on the contrary, it gave us information and control which made us less anxious she blanked us for the remainder of the session .

The dietician told us about the Eat Well plate and that we should switch from white rice and pasta to brown. I told her that I had halved my HbA1c by switching to LCHF eating, she smiled and said that wasn't really sustainable for most diabetics and carried on showing us how to switch "bad" carbs for "good" ones.

 

[Avocado Sevenfold]

I declined the Desmond course offer. Saw the dietician once and have declined several invitations to see her since. I told my DN that I have achieved my good levels by ignoring my dietician's advice. If you nod and smile, they don't know about the benefits of low carb on individual patients and assume that the Eat Carbs plate works and that metformin tablets are magic beans. Being silent does not benefit the wider diabetes community in my opinion.

 

[daisyduck]

My DESMOND course was the same. I did try to promote the LCHF lifestyle a few times but was quickly blanked.
This was 3 years ago and I was just confused by their information as even back then I could see LCHF working for me.. why wouldn't they even want to tell people about it ?
It just makes me angry now, that people are told this and are expecting their diabetes to progress and worsen, taking more medication and not even given the opportunity to do something about it themselves.

 

[Goonergal]

@daisyduck and @TooManyCrisps I had a similar experience with the Desmond course.

Presented in a very patronising manner and very focused on the eatwell plate.

At one point they did an exercise which involved trying to guess how many cubes of sugar were in various portions of food. Having demonstrated (among other examples) that 3 tablespoons of rice equalled 12 cubes of sugar, they asked how it would affect our eating. I indicated that I just don't eat rice or other starchy carbs. This was dismissed with a 'well that's one option' comment, before they proceeded to recommend eating carbs.

Waste of time and resources - not just for the course, but the cost of so many people following poor advice and needing more medication and developing complications.

 

[Mr_Pot]

Before you write off the DESMOND and similar courses, remember that most people diagnosed are not as well informed as those on this site. I attended a DEAL course which is the Berkshire Healthcare version. They did recommend the Eatwell Plate but judging from some of the comments, this would be an improvement, especially on quantities, to their current diet. Some of those attending said they never ate vegetables, some had never read the nutritional information, didn't know what a carbohydrate was etc. There was also a lot of information apart from diet which was useful to the recently diagnosed.

 

[kokhongw]

It is really unfortunate that millions of newly diagnosed T2D are simply being actively denied the option to even consider the use of LCHF and intermittent fasting for insulin/glucose normalization in preference for a lifetime of medication and certainty of diabetic complications.

The evidence against the current treatment protocol and dietary recommendation is crystal clear...

Type 2 Diabetes Remission Without Surgery Does Happen—But Very Rarely

What did the researchers find? Over 7 years, 1.47 percent of the entire group had a partial remission, 0.14 percent had a complete remission, and 0.007 percent had a prolonged remission. Overall, 1.60 percent of the entire group (4.6 percent of those who had been diagnosed for less than 2 years) had some sort of remission. People who were older than 65 years of age, were African American, had been diagnosed for less than 2 years, had an A1C of less than 5.7 percent at the start of the study period, or were taking no diabetes medicines at the start of the study period were more likely to have a remission. - See more at: http://www.diabetes.org/research-an...tps://www.google.com.sg/#sthash.BZ8vguX3.dpuf

Many of us here, happens to be the fortunate few to have stumbled upon this...

 

[paintylady]

I did Desmond a few weeks ago and all I can really say is that was 7 hours I'll never get back and could have spent it doing something more useful like cleaning the bathroom!! It was the look shared between the 2 nurses when I mentioned that I low carb (it said oh God we've got one of those!) compounded by me also being the only one self testing.
When I phoned up to book on to it the really lovely lady actually told me she was type 2, suggested lchf (which I was already doing so we talked a little about that and she gave me some good tips) and said to go along but not to expect much (uh? This is the person booking me onto the day!)
It may be useful to those who really have no clue where to start but it really felt like it wasn't about options or taking control rather just do as we say because whatever you do or don't do you'll still get worse because it's progressive so let us do your thinking for you. (Just my opinion)

 

[daisyduck]

@daisyduck and @TooManyCrisps I had a similar experience with the Desmond course.

Presented in a very patronising manner and very focused on the eatwell plate.

At one point they did an exercise which involved trying to guess how many cubes of sugar were in various portions of food. Having demonstrated (among other examples) that 3 tablespoons of rice equalled 12 cubes of sugar, they asked how it would affect our eating. I indicated that I just don't eat rice or other starchy carbs. This was dismissed with a 'well that's one option' comment, before they proceeded to recommend eating carbs.

Waste of time and resources - not just for the course, but the cost of so many people following poor advice and needing more medication and developing complications.

Yes. we did the sugar cube thing .. placing how many cubes we thought were in each product on the table. I saw this as an opportunity to ask how many "cubes" we should be having daily.. somehow they faffed a bit and came up with 17.. they were totally lost when I asked how that translated into carbs ??

 

[bulkbiker]

Before you write off the DESMOND and similar courses, remember that most people diagnosed are not as well informed as those on this site. I attended a DEAL course which is the Berkshire Healthcare version. They did recommend the Eatwell Plate but judging from some of the comments, this would be an improvement, especially on quantities, to their current diet. Some of those attending said they never ate vegetables, some had never read the nutritional information, didn't know what a carbohydrate was etc. There was also a lot of information apart from diet which was useful to the recently diagnosed.

But don't you think that such courses should do exactly that and make everyone as well informed as we are. At least they could mention the possibility of Low Carb as a possible way of eating. It's the (from what we see reported) sneering way they dismiss it that really gets my goat and makes me angry that time and money is wasted on that approach.

 

[Mr_Pot]

But don't you think that such courses should do exactly that and make everyone as well informed as we are. At least they could mention the possibility of Low Carb as a possible way of eating. It's the (from what we see reported) sneering way they dismiss it that really gets my goat and makes me angry that time and money is wasted on that approach.

I didn't get any sneering. They just said although some people had success with low carb it wasn't the official line so they couldn't advocate it on the course.

My course was 2 mornings, one about diabetes in general, and one on diet. Even if you discount the diet day, which as I said was useful to some people (one man was keeping healthy by drinking a pint of orange juice every morning), there was still a lot of useful information if you had just been diagnosed, for example:

What is the difference between Type 1 and Type 2?
What is blood glucose?
What is the purpose of Insulin?
What does HbA1c measure?
What is a heathy weight and waist measurement?
What are the benefits of exercise?
What is Peripheral Neuropathy and the importance of foot care.
What happens at a diabetic eye screening and the importance of having the test.
Etc. etc.

 

[AM1874]

@AM1874 I don't get it. You have done well with lchf and exercise yourself, so why are you nodding and smiling instead of saying something?

The reason that I nod, smile and say nothing is quite simple .. it's not worth it. Nothing I did say would make any difference and all that would happen is that I would be blanked, box-ticked as non-compliant or fobbed off (just like the guy who raised the issue of LCHF and DB reversal). Sorry but I really don't think that anything I said would make one scrap of difference to the NHS treatment regime
Scattered right across this forum are countless posts from people who have received poor standards of either perceived or actual care from their GPs and HCPs. This ranges from lack of interest, to a "one size fits all" approach, to inappropriate or incorrect advice, to an almost slavish adherence to a treatment mindset that was generated decades ago and has not been updated. There are, of course, a lot of exceptions to this and many DBs do not experience any such problems and are offered advice and support outside the NHS guidelines. Unfortunately, though, many (probably the majority) of GPs and HCPs continue to plough the same dated furrows that the NHS has been cultivating for years.
So, largely from a self-interest perspective, I shall continue to listen, nod, smile and say thankyou .. and ignore

 

[Avocado Sevenfold]

The reason that I nod, smile and say nothing is quite simple .. it's not worth it. Nothing I did say would make any difference and all that would happen is that I would be blanked, box-ticked as non-compliant or fobbed off (just like the guy who raised the issue of LCHF and DB reversal). Sorry but I really don't think that anything I said would make one scrap of difference to the NHS treatment regime
Scattered right across this forum are countless posts from people who have received poor standards of either perceived or actual care from their GPs and HCPs. This ranges from lack of interest, to a "one size fits all" approach, to inappropriate or incorrect advice, to an almost slavish adherence to a treatment mindset that was generated decades ago and has not been updated. There are, of course, a lot of exceptions to this and many DBs do not experience any such problems and are offered advice and support outside the NHS guidelines. Unfortunately, though, many (probably the majority) of GPs and HCPs continue to plough the same dated furrows that the NHS has been cultivating for years.
So, largely from a self-interest perspective, I shall continue to listen, nod, smile and say thankyou .. and ignore

I hope you ate least said something to the 45 year old man who asked about lchf and exercise. He might be at home now chowing on brown pasta and bananas

 

[AM1874]

I didn't get any sneering. They just said although some people had success with low carb it wasn't the official line so they couldn't advocate it on the course.

My course was 2 mornings, one about diabetes in general, and one on diet. Even if you discount the diet day, which as I said was useful to some people (one man was keeping healthy by drinking a pint of orange juice every morning), there was still a lot of useful information if you had just been diagnosed, for example:

What is the difference between Type 1 and Type 2?
What is blood glucose?
What is the purpose of Insulin?
What does HbA1c measure?
What is a heathy weight and waist measurement?
What are the benefits of exercise?
What is Peripheral Neuropathy and the importance of foot care.
What happens at a diabetic eye screening and the importance of having the test.
Etc. etc.

The programme for my course does not include any of this material except, possibly some info about weight issues in day 2. If questions like this were covered, it would be much more worthwhile. As I said above, though, the lead tutor gave us about 10 minutes (including intro and housekeeping), then she handed over to the dietician. Nothing about the causes, characteristics or pathology of diabetes itself .. nothing about exercise .. nothing about complications .. nothing about retinopathy or eye screening. All in all, pretty much a waste of time.
I do take your point, though, about some of the diet info being useful to some people.

 

[AM1874]

I hope you ate least said something to the 45 year old man who asked about lchf and exercise. He might be at home now chowing on brown pasta and bananas

I did .. but he was already following LCHF and he knew at least as much as me about it .. maybe more. We did have a chat about exercise, though .. he goes to the gym and has started jogging every day

 

[Mr_Pot]

The programme for my course does not include any of this material except, possibly some info about weight issues in day 2. If questions like this were covered, it would be much more worthwhile.

Sounds like you were short changed.
I just looked it up and it seems DESMOND is more than just one course....
http://www.desmond-project.org.uk/whatisthedesmondprogramme-271.html

 

[Avocado Sevenfold]

Sounds like you were short changed.
I just looked it up and it seems DESMOND is more than just one course....
http://www.desmond-project.org.uk/whatisthedesmondprogramme-271.html

From the link

What these modules can do for your patients:
....Is administered in one dose and effective for 12 months

A yearly thing like blood testing then