Prof Roy Taylor's work on reversing type 2 diabetes

[Tannith]

Sorry, late 2017, not 2018.

 

[Tannith]

I don't know whether it means exactly 800 cals for exactly 8 weeks or if it means low cal enough and long enough to lose 10% of your weight. Or indeed some other percentage. Obviously the objective is to lose all the fat off your liver and then all the fat off your pancreas, but how do you tell when you have done that, given that your BG will start to improve in 7 days with just the initial loss of some of the liver fat? We haven't got MRI scanners so we need guidlines.

 

[ringi]

There is nothing special about 800 cal or losing the weight quickly apart from it makes the experiment easier for him to manage. The key seems to lose the fat from the pancreas and he thinks people need to get to about 85% of their weight at the time they got Type2.

Remember that once the liver is empty of stored glucose you can eat most things once without peaking your BG, so it is hard to tell even with a BG meter that you are there.

800 cal a day will work for anyone to lose weight, a "normal" cal controlled diet does not work for lots of people with insulin resistance hence most of us use low carb and/or intermittent fasting.

 

[Guzzler]

There is nothing specout 800 cal or losing the weight quickly apart from it makes the experiment easier for him to manage. The key seems to lose the fat from the pancreas and he thinks people need to get to about 85% of their weight at the time they got Type2.

Remember that once the liver is empty of stored glucose you can eat most things once without peaking your BG, so it is hard to tell even with a BG meter that you are there.

800 cal a day will work for anyone to lose weight, a "normal" cal controlled diet does not work for lots of people with insulin resistance hence most of us use low carb and/or intermittent fasting.

Phew! At first glance I thought you wrote 'people have to lose 85% of their weight at diagnosis'. I would be left with just my head on a stick lol

 

[ringi]

Sorry I could not say lose 15%, as that depends on their current weight still being the same.

 

[Fleegle]

I have lost over 15% of my weight and I am moving ever closer to a decent BMI and W/H measure.
According to my scales my overall body fat is still too high - so work to do although my visceral fat is good and I have just moved into the normal range for it. Of course these scales are good - but not the kind that a health centre might have.

Though my BG is much much better controlled - I am far from pushing it back. I am still just controlling it through diet.

So the 15% is a guide I am sure - indeed I am almost certainly going to try the ND in September because my 15% weight loss has been helpful but nowhere near where I want to get to.

 

[Peerless67]

I don't know whether it means exactly 800 cals for exactly 8 weeks or if it means low cal enough and long enough to lose 10% of your weight. Or indeed some other percentage. Obviously the objective is to lose all the fat off your liver and then all the fat off your pancreas, but how do you tell when you have done that, given that your BG will start to improve in 7 days with just the initial loss of some of the liver fat? We haven't got MRI scanners so we need guidlines.

I had this exact question and even started a thread for opinions, but I since came across this video. The liver responds very quicly to the diet but the pancreas takes longer. Straight from the horses mouth as they say.

 

[DavidGrahamJones]

Real shame he has not done research on LCHF etc as he is the one person that uk GPs may listen to.

He's not really likely to do that because his aim was to prove that Bariatric Surgery is successful for treating type II because of the severe calorie restriction. He proved that a very low calorie diet can have similar affects on type II.

As for GPs, I think the situation is changing, albeit very slowly. GPs don't get defrocked (barred?) by following the guidelines. Although my GP reluctantly supported my low carb efforts 4 years ago and just warned me of possible hypos before I was able to drop Gliclazide and Januvia, she was delighted with the results. She has also been very supportive since my poor HbA1c results last December '16 and Match '17 in allowing me to alter or tinker with my diet. More importantly she has supported my efforts at following a "Newcastle Diet" type of regime which has been fairly successful in straightening my BG levels out. She did tell me that I was one of the few patients that she would trust to try it and by that I think she meant I was one of the few patients who would have the discipline to cut right back. She was 95% right. I'm lucky, it sounds like my GP is progressive in comparison to others.

 

[DavidGrahamJones]

Hope this link works. Its actually quite a longish video but I think really informative.

Thanks for posting, it was very useful. I have had some success with the very low calorie diet but I'm intrigued by the "reversal" thing. My opinion has always been that diabetes can only be called reversed if you can eat the 250 gms of carbs recommended for non diabetics. Professor Taylor implies that by suggesting that if you were eating 1 lb of potato before, you'd have to eat 25% after. That wouldn't be a struggle for me because I've sort of got to it in stages, reducing calories over the years from 2300 (my BMR) to 1800, then down to 1200 by cutting carbs and not replacing with fats.

Nice to put a face to a name, he seems quite human. LOL

 

[Tannith]

I had this exact question and even started a thread for opinions, but I since came across this video. The liver responds very quicly to the diet but the pancreas takes longer. Straight from the horses mouth as they say.

 

[Tannith]

Thank you very much for posting this Peerless. I am going to try it. In fact I have already started -Thurs Fri Sat. BGs plummeting already but weight not shifting much. but then what can you expect in 3 days? I am using real food and probably about 950 cals per day. Endlessly grating carrot!

 

[DavidGrahamJones]

BGs plummeting already but weight not shifting much.

My experience, although not exactly 100% compliant with the Newcastle Diet idea (I skipped the shakes altogether and fasted), was that my BG came down and straightened out (previously low carb for 3 years +), I did lose 5 kgs which probably isn't bad for 6 - 8 weeks. Nowhere near 10% of my body weight unfortunately (can't remember where I saw 10% mentioned).

This thread has given me the impetus to do it again and stick to it more rigidly.

 

[Brunneria]

Thanks for posting, it was very useful. I have had some success with the very low calorie diet but I'm intrigued by the "reversal" thing. My opinion has always been that diabetes can only be called reversed if you can eat the 250 gms of carbs recommended for non diabetics. Professor Taylor implies that by suggesting that if you were eating 1 lb of potato before, you'd have to eat 25% after. That wouldn't be a struggle for me because I've sort of got to it in stages, reducing calories over the years from 2300 (my BMR) to 1800, then down to 1200 by cutting carbs and not replacing with fats.

Nice to put a face to a name, he seems quite human. LOL

There are a few of his video presentations and progress lectures on you tube if you do a search, showing his work going over the last few years, and showing the success rates of the 'reversal'.

From watching those, he seems to rate 'reversed' as having a non-D HbA1c.
Of course, that fits right in with the whole NHS orthodox mindset, but for my somewhat pedantic turn of mind, I would like to see some data on spikes after carbs, fasting rates and levels of insulin resistance.

But I don't want to detract from the work - because it is very, very impressive to be able to 'reverse' a group of patients within 8 weeks (the last figs I saw were that 40% remained 'reversed' at 6 months, in the second trial - that was from an interim presentation from the 2nd study).

And finding out if this can be rolled out across the land via surgeries and diabetic nurses could transform 1000s of lives.
So I hope the man and his team get the recognition he deserves!

 

[DavidGrahamJones]

But I don't want to detract from the work - because it is very, very impressive to be able to 'reverse' a group of patients within 8 weeks (the last figs I saw were that 40% remained 'reversed' at 6 months, in the second trial - that was from an interim presentation from the 2nd study).

I was happy that my BG that was initially all over the place despite the low carbs (approx 40gms) was between 5 and 7 for days after 6 weeks of very low calories. It didn't take much to set things off though, even 100gms of yoghurt (12gms carb) as a treat sent the BG climbing. I shall have another go without doubt because it's been relatively easy and I didn't feel unwell, quite the opposite.

 

[Fleegle]

There are a few of his video presentations and progress lectures on you tube if you do a search, showing his work going over the last few years, and showing the success rates of the 'reversal'.

From watching those, he seems to rate 'reversed' as having a non-D HbA1c.
Of course, that fits right in with the whole NHS orthodox mindset, but for my somewhat pedantic turn of mind, I would like to see some data on spikes after carbs, fasting rates and levels of insulin resistance.

But I don't want to detract from the work - because it is very, very impressive to be able to 'reverse' a group of patients within 8 weeks (the last figs I saw were that 40% remained 'reversed' at 6 months, in the second trial - that was from an interim presentation from the 2nd study).

And finding out if this can be rolled out across the land via surgeries and diabetic nurses could transform 1000s of lives.
So I hope the man and his team get the recognition he deserves!

I agree with you - I would like to see a lot more data on what the actual outcomes are when eating the new normal diet. I have a funny feeling they will not be published...

However - he does specifically say the insulin production is at normal levels and don't the patients do some form of GTT at the end?

 

[Art Of Flowers]

I have seen some slides by Jason Fung on beta cell function over weeks of intermittent fasting. If diabetes remission is associated with the burning off of fat around the pancreas via ketosis then tests to show the amount of fat around the pancreas and beta cell function would be a good indication of diabetes remission.

 

[Peerless67]

Thank you very much for posting this Peerless. I am going to try it. In fact I have already started -Thurs Fri Sat. BGs plummeting already but weight not shifting much. but then what can you expect in 3 days? I am using real food and probably about 950 cals per day. Endlessly grating carrot!

I am almost 2 weeks in. My BG drop has been dramatic. I have used soups and veg. I would skip the carrot if possible.

My thread is here: http://www.diabetes.co.uk/forum/threads/peerless67-newcastle-diet.124417/

 

[Tannith]

I hope they give Roy Taylor a knighthood. He deserves it after all he has done for T2s and saving the NHS all this money for treatment

 

[bulkbiker]

I hope they give Roy Taylor a knighthood. He deserves it after all he has done for T2s and saving the NHS all this money for treatment

I think that should wait until we have a bit more evidence. I would say that from my reading on these forums a lot more people have had success with LCHF than with the Newcastle Diet. I also find the lack of published follow up after a few years (the first study was done in 2011 after all) a bit concerning. I fear the results may not be as good as many would like to believe. I may just be being overly cynical but hey that's what science is all about isn't it.
If anyone is deserving of knighthoods then I would nominate @Administrator for providing us with this amazing forum where I for one (and one of many) have turned my life and health around due to advice and support from other forum members who have walked the path already.

 

[zand]

If anyone is deserving of knighthoods then I would nominate @Administrator for providing us with this amazing forum where I for one (and one of many) have turned my life and health around due to advice and support from other forum members who have walked the path already.

lol Don't forget that many of the first low carbers here were banned and this delayed the LCHF message for a few years here.