Prof Roy Taylor's work on reversing type 2 diabetes

[Fleegle]

I think that should wait until we have a bit more evidence. I would say that from my reading on these forums a lot more people have had success with LCHF than with the Newcastle Diet. I also find the lack of published follow up after a few years (the first study was done in 2011 after all) a bit concerning. I fear the results may not be as good as many would like to believe. I may just be being overly cynical but hey that's what science is all about isn't it.
If anyone is deserving of knighthoods then I would nominate @Administrator for providing us with this amazing forum where I for one (and one of many) have turned my life and health around due to advice and support from other forum members who have walked the path already.

I agree that it would have been good to see some data published on the first trial five year effect. I think to some extent this is what this longer term study is looking at as well as a larger sample size.
I am trying to get some real world experiences from people in the thread:-

http://www.diabetes.co.uk/forum/threads/newcastle-diet-outcomes.124935/#post-1531906

as of yet the only post had good results and now tolerates 40g of carbs. That feels like the same outcomes are attained in many cases from the LCHF diet.

In any case, just like your hero who should also receive an honour (if only the USA would accept them) I think Dr Taylor should receive a knighthood for showing that Diabetes is not one directional - it can be reversed in that people stop taking drugs and getting worse and that in itself is sensational. LCHF works too - brilliant - once the news breaks that not only is it reversible but there are multiple ways of doing it, then that can only lead to more research - more findings more success.

 

[bulkbiker]

lol Don't forget that many of the first low carbers here were banned and this delayed the LCHF message for a few years here.

I'm only a forum youngster.. 22 months ish!

 

[bulkbiker]

just like your hero who should also receive an honour

He's from Canada can he get a knighthood? Also of course our very own (well sometimes) Dr David Unwin @Southport GP could be up for a gong or 3 as well.. and there are more Low Carb doctors springing up around the place.. still a minority but thankfully a vocal one.

 

[DCUKMod]

I think that should wait until we have a bit more evidence. I would say that from my reading on these forums a lot more people have had success with LCHF than with the Newcastle Diet. I also find the lack of published follow up after a few years (the first study was done in 2011 after all) a bit concerning. I fear the results may not be as good as many would like to believe. I may just be being overly cynical but hey that's what science is all about isn't it.
If anyone is deserving of knighthoods then I would nominate @Administrator for providing us with this amazing forum where I for one (and one of many) have turned my life and health around due to advice and support from other forum members who have walked the path already.

Honours nominations allow public nominations, Bulkbiker. Just saying.

 

[DCUKMod]

I agree with you - I would like to see a lot more data on what the actual outcomes are when eating the new normal diet. I have a funny feeling they will not be published...

However - he does specifically say the insulin production is at normal levels and don't the patients do some form of GTT at the end?

The current piece of work covers the process being using in primary care, in a handful of GP practices in (I think) 2 locations.

I corresponded back and forth with Professor Taylor in late 2014/early 2015, when I specifically wanted to understand his criteria for reversal, and whether he had any views on the most favourable ongoing diet (as opposed to the ND phase).

I hadn't done the ND, but had shifted my HbA1c from 73 to 37 in 4 months (it was 4 months, as opposed to 3 as I spent the whole time, post-diagnosis overseas), and had carried on with the HbA1c drifting a smidge lower over time.

I also asked about the desirability of a successful OGTT, although at that stage I had no intention of doing one.

I'll paraphrase his responses to my queries as to disclose the content of an email verbatim would not be fair, without his permission. It went along these lines:

• OGTT not necessary, provided bloods remain normo-glycaemic, as confirmed by ongoing HbA1cs and backed up by home testing, including one hour after food.
• Criteria for a post-ND person taking an OGTT would be the standard diagnostic criteria for non-diabetic patients.
• In his opinion, the critical thing for me, bearing in mind my serial HbA1cs in the low 30s was not to regain the weight I lost when I trimmed up.

I have no idea how much weight I lost as I was not weighed at diagnosis and chose not to consider weight loss at the outset, but to focus on reducing my blood glucose numbers, but I got skinny along the way.

He is a lovely man, and certainly deserves massive recognition for swimming against the current.

Yes, there is a fish in there, swimming against the shoal.

 

[Tannith]

Did he tell you how much weight a person has to lose and how you tell whether you have lost enough to remove all surplus pancreatic fat? Lowered BG might just be an indicator of well managed diabetes as opposed to REVERSED diabetes. You would expect that when you reached your personal fat threshold you would have to keep at that level for life.

 

[ickihun]

There is nothing special about 800 cal or losing the weight quickly apart from it makes the experiment easier for him to manage. The key seems to lose the fat from the pancreas and he thinks people need to get to about 85% of their weight at the time they got Type2.

Remember that once the liver is empty of stored glucose you can eat most things once without peaking your BG, so it is hard to tell even with a BG meter that you are there.

800 cal a day will work for anyone to lose weight, a "normal" cal controlled diet does not work for lots of people with insulin resistance hence most of us use low carb and/or intermittent fasting.

I'm going to have to do low carb and low cal to get the very best result!

 

[DCUKMod]

Did he tell you how much weight a person has to lose and how you tell whether you have lost enough to remove all surplus pancreatic fat? Lowered BG might just be an indicator of well managed diabetes as opposed to REVERSED diabetes. You would expect that when you reached your personal fat threshold you would have to keep at that level for life.

His papers touch on this, but nobody know when we may have breached the personal fat threshold. For some they need to a lot of weight, and some a smaller amount. At the end of the ND, some of Professor Taylor's subjects were still clinically obese. That's the tricky bit - nobody knows.

For me, the important thing isn't crossing any line, in terms of completing 8 weeks, but what happens in the period thereafter. Most people have to continue to eat less than they did before embarking on the ND. Aside from all other considerations, they are lighter, and therefore have less body mass to fuel.

I have some fairly clever scales (Omron BF511), which measure additional metric as well as straightforward weight. That includes visceral fat. On a scale of 1-30, I score 3, and have done for well over 3 years.

I keep a good eye on the VF score; checking it weekly, always using the scale hand grasps, as they allegedly improve the scale's accuracy my assessing the impedance from more both hands and feet.

Personally, I recently did a home GTT, without carbing up beforehand (not eating c150gr carb a day can lead to an increased chance of a false diabetes positive result). I passed the GTT, but of course I have no idea what would happen if I just ate lots of carbs, all day and every day. I have no idea if my body would cope, but for now, I'm not fussed about changing my current way of eating, as it suits me and my lifestyle pretty well.

 

[OrsonKartt]

He has proved what we all know, that Type2 can be controlled and reversed and that we don't all have to put up with a life of every increasing drug usage. But he has done it with enough expensive equipment that doctors may start to believe it.

Love this...... for me it was the publicity that he generated that I'd read up on that got me to realise this was possible so when I was diagnosed I could do something about it rather than take drugs.

 

[DavidGrahamJones]

Did he tell you how much weight a person has to lose and how you tell whether you have lost enough to remove all surplus pancreatic fat?

I don't think there's a correlation between weight and pancreatic fat or fat around any organ. I base that theory on a TV program some time ago where a family with three sons who ate the same and exercised the same couldn't understand why they had 2 skinny sons and one obese son. They did full body scans on all three and it was surprising how much fat was around the organs of the 2 skinny sons.

I can't help but think that although this approach to managing diabetes, possibly reversing diabetes, it's not an exact science because we're all so different. Very interesting though!

 

[Mbaker]

I don't think there's a correlation between weight and pancreatic fat or fat around any organ. I base that theory on a TV program some time ago where a family with three sons who ate the same and exercised the same couldn't understand why they had 2 skinny sons and one obese son. They did full body scans on all three and it was surprising how much fat was around the organs of the 2 skinny sons.

I can't help but think that although this approach to managing diabetes, possibly reversing diabetes, it's not an exact science because we're all so different. Very interesting though!

Although I generally accept the personal fat threshold for many Type 2's, I have thrown the kitchen sink at this wretched condition with diet, exercise, sleep and intermittent fasting. In my case to get non-diabetic numbers initially I only lost 6 kgs of weight - I suspect that I was losing visceral fat and adding muscle at the same time, hence why my percentage of weight loss is relatively low.

My peak weight loss was 12 kgs (86 kgs). I am now at 90 kgs, which I know is muscle due to 3 separate body composition scales; it will be interesting to see my next HbA1c as I know my fasting figures have been lower under the bias of HiiT weight training. So at this time my best consistent fasting control has been with an 8 kg loss from initial diagnosis. I would recommend that if possible eating to your meter and trying different tools (different exercise, IF, better sleep, no snacking etc) is worthwhile to see what works best for the individual. Next, I am going to try to drive out the remaining fat as much as possible, so a little bit contradictory in trying to loose some further weight whilst keeping muscle mass.

 

[DavidGrahamJones]

I am going to try to drive out the remaining fat

I've been using a set of Salter scales which gives fat/muscle numbers. I also managed to use what's known as a "BodPod" at London University at Westminster. The BodPod is considered the "gold standard when it comes to measuring fat and muscle and is used by many athletes. I was very pleased to see how close my cheap and cheerful scales are to the BodPod.

 

[ickihun]

Although I generally accept the personal fat threshold for many Type 2's, I have thrown the kitchen sink at this wretched condition with diet, exercise, sleep and intermittent fasting. In my case to get non-diabetic numbers initially I only lost 6 kgs of weight - I suspect that I was losing visceral fat and adding muscle at the same time, hence why my percentage of weight loss is relatively low.

My peak weight loss was 12 kgs (86 kgs). I am now at 90 kgs, which I know is muscle due to 3 separate body composition scales; it will be interesting to see my next HbA1c as I know my fasting figures have been lower under the bias of HiiT weight training. So at this time my best consistent fasting control has been with an 8 kg loss from initial diagnosis. I would recommend that if possible eating to your meter and trying different tools (different exercise, IF, better sleep, no snacking etc) is worthwhile to see what works best for the individual. Next, I am going to try to drive out the remaining fat as much as possible, so a little bit contradictory in trying to loose some further weight whilst keeping muscle mass.

Your problem will be IF you relax or unable to do what your currently doing. The bigger the muscle mass the more room for stored glucose alongside liver. Then when you start fastings you receive more frequent dumps.
My advice is if you relax your currently programme don't start fasting to replace. Low carb regular small eats will be needed to prevent your liver and muscle storage hampering your bg levels.

 

[ringi]

I don't see a problem with an increased BG when fasting, as all of the stored glucose, the liver release will be replaced slowly after the fast, helping keep the BG lower on none fasting days. (Even better if low carb on none fasting days)

PS very little of the stored glucose in muscle can be realised into blood nearly all of it can only be used by the given muscle its self. But it does mean muscle usage in a fast will not be taking much glucose from the blood.

But if you build muscle while fasting or doing low carb, then the muscles use a lot more fat for energy when used and don't have as large glucose storage capacity. Hence if training for long distance events it is often best to train while fasting, but if training for the 1500m, you want to be running on stored glucose.

 

[ickihun]

I don't see a problem with an increased BG when fasting, as all of the stored glucose, the liver release will be replaced slowly after the fast, helping keep the BG lower on none fasting days. (Even better if low carb on none fasting days)

PS very little of the stored glucose in muscle can be realised into blood nearly all of it can only be used by the given muscle its self. But it does mean muscle usage in a fast will not be taking much glucose from the blood.

But if you build muscle while fasting or doing low carb, then the muscles use a lot more fat for energy when used and don't have as large glucose storage capacity. Hence if training for long distance events it is often best to train while fasting, but if training for the 1500m, you want to be running on stored glucose.

I totally agree.
The problem which arose for me was I was unable to walk nor exercise so my muscles dumped as well as liver, even on a sustainable carb diet which didn't cause horrendeous palpitations and dizziness. Salt content was accounted for and magnesium and potassium was good levels too.
These things can increase a persons IR too which is the obsolute opposite to any IR sufferers aim like @Mbaker .
The problem arises after the hard fight stops, for whichever reason.
How many people can sustain such an unnatural fight?
The aim is for it to become normal and sustainable. For life!

 

[Indy51]

The aim is for it to become normal and sustainable. For life!

Couldn't agree more re. this. At my age and various physical issues, there was no way I could keep upping exercise to try and control BG. It had to be diet.

For that same reason, I didn't immediately jump to lowest carbs possible. I followed Jenny Ruhl's advice to gradually reduce to a level that gave me levels within my target range. Once I felt like I was running on automatic, I started some intermittent fasting. I'm not going to force myself into things in hopes of some magical cure. I'm happy with the level of carbs, happy with my A1c and happy to tinker with bits and pieces. I'm also convinced that LCHF is the best way of eating for my continued good health, regardless of diabetes.

Always bothers me when I see people taking things to extremes - what do you do if it doesn't work when you've convinced yourself it will? Fall off the wagon is the mostly likely outcome, IMO.

 

[ickihun]

I do worry when obese people are encouraged to do anything other than slow stagnated exercise strategies to get their weight in line.
Walking will always be the very best first point of call.
Your body tells you how much is beneficial, step by step.

Not join a gym and run on treadmill like billiow! Very dangerous.
I know for sure @Mbaker didn't do extreme exercise to start. Build-up has been timely but I just worry where it will end since reversal is very rare but sustained, even rarer!
I'm keeping my fingers crossed and huge best wishes.
A few are lucky.

A mimicked bariatric surgery affect can be very very useful to diabetics less than 10yrs managed. No extra exercise is involved I believe.

 

[serenity648]

I do worry when obese people are encouraged to do anything other than slow stagnated exercise strategies to get their weight in line.
Walking will always be the very best first point of call.
Your body tells you how much is beneficial, step by step.

Not join a gym and run on treadmill like billiow! Very dangerous.
I know for sure @Mbaker didn't do extreme exercise to start. Build-up has been timely but I just worry where it will end since reversal is very rare but sustained, even rarer!
I'm keeping my fingers crossed and huge best wishes.
A few are lucky.

A mimicked bariatric surgery affect can be very very useful to diabetics less than 10yrs managed. No extra exercise is involved I believe.

can I just ask: after bariatric surgery, is there a calorie limit you have to stick to? The subject has been gently mooted by my GP.

 

[ickihun]

can I just ask: after bariatric surgery, is there a calorie limit you have to stick to? The subject has been gently mooted by my GP.

I haven't received mine yet but prof taylor's work is based on how the body reacts to bariatric surgery benefits of reversal. Bariatric surgery can reverse type2s not suffering(well diagnosed) for longer than 10yrs.
You're restricted by a egg size stomach to low amounts of food. Fatty food gives dumping syndrome so your body doesn't need a high fat diet. LCHF didn't work for me but low car, low fat does. I've lost 2 and half stones so far but it's painfully slow due to underactive thyroid too and using insulin therapy.
Low calorie it will be. ND is 600cals so I assume bariatric surgery patients limited to such in their ice cube size portions. High calorie foods are discouraged.

 

[ringi]

I do worry when obese people are encouraged to do anything other than slow stagnated exercise strategies to get their weight in line.
Walking will always be the very best first point of call.
Your body tells you how much is beneficial, step by step.

Not join a gym and run on treadmill like billiow! Very dangerous.

A good gym instructor will get someone going with very gentle resistance training and walking on a treadmill. The benefit I get from a treadmill is that I can increase how intense the exercise is by changing the angle, so avoid damaging my knees with running.

But most of my exercise is from walking including a short walk after dinner most days.