• Guest - w'd love to know what you think about the forum! Take the 2025 Survey »

Population Health Metrics + Incorrect Dietary Advice = A Driver of Diabetes Progression?

Biggles2

Well-Known Member
Messages
324
Three assumptions at the outset: As individuals, we all want what is best for our health, and we want to live long, healthy and productive lives to the best of our abilities. Our health care providers entered their respective professions to help people achieve the above goals. There are no bad actors in the patient/health care provider couplet.

Systems Issues:

But sometimes systems issues get in the way of things. Take the concept of population health (PH) for example: the goal of PH is to improve care and outcomes while reducing overall spending. Two very noble goals, and, for a publicly funded system like the NHS, careful use of limited fiscal resources in one area increases capacity across the system.

In order to demonstrate responsible stewardship of public funds, care must be evidence-based, and outcomes, or proxy measures for outcomes, must be measured. The Quality Outcomes Framework (QOF) establishes the quality measures, and GP’s are incentivized to meet these targets. So, GP’s assume downside risk: if a patient does not meet specific biometric targets, funding for the GP’s practice will be less, and, as a consequence, patients may suffer.

Is it any wonder, under these pressures, that GP’s take the safe approach? They have seen their patients fail with ‘lifestyle measures’ again and again (especially as patients are advised to eat according to the Eat Well plate). So, the only rational approach in their world is to control what they can control and introduce medications early, and escalate them as necessary. Under these systemic pressures, Type 2 Diabetes can only be a progressive disease.

What are we doing at the Individual Level to Counter these Systemic Barriers?

As individuals, we have a very large role to play in co-producing our health, especially where T2DM is concerned. No health care provider can give us health, it must be co-produced. We all have a part to play, and our inputs matter very much to our health outcomes! However, we are all different, and our different personality types will mean that we will all approach our T2DM journey differently.

It is probably easiest for those of us who are detail-orientated. There is a lot of measuring and controlling, graphs and spreadsheets, and our trusted meters/CGM’s ensure that we have short feedback loops to keep us motivated. This works for our personalities. We are also inclined to do the necessary research, and, because traditional dietary advice has not worked for us in the past, we try to find out why. We know that we have been diligent in following the standard advice. It has failed us, we have not failed it.

So, we discover that the dietary advice we have been given over the past 40 years is based on flawed science (yes, there was at least one bad actor). We also discover there are pioneering health care providers who are leading the charge in showing that there is a different way to approach this disease – Dr. Jason Fung, Dr. David Unwin, Dr. Sarah Hallberg, Dr. Malcolm Kendrick, Dr. Lars-Erik Litsfeldt, Professor Tim Noakes, to name but a few. We discover health professionals who are facing strong push back from powerful special interests. And we also discover professionals who have a very powerful platform to drive appropriate dietary advice for our condition, Dr. John Schoonbee at Swiss Re for example.

We are also joined in our journey by others who use their unique skill set to approach this vexing problem - Is T2DM really a progressive disease, or one which can be managed through dietary means? Ivor Cummins, an engineer with expertise in complex problem solving and root cause analysis is but one example. On our forum we have members who think outside the box, and conduct their own n=1 experiments which they share with us on the forum.

And the forum itself: it provides us as individuals with the platform to share our experiences and to give and receive support from our peers. It also provides a platform for data capture so that the knowledge we collectively create may be shared with the wider community. And the knowledge we are collectively creating indicates - at least to me - that T2DM does not have to be a progressive disease.
 
Agree 100% although I do find it a bit sad that most GP's take the "safe" approach and also apparently cease to strive to educate themselves further. There are of course quite a few notable exceptions but I'm afraid the vast majority just don't seem to be interested in one of the biggest "epidemics" of our times.
 
Ironically "Evidence based medicine"...has blinded the minds of most practitioners...to the evidence standing before them.

They view anecdotal evidence as non evidence...

For any seismic change to occur in the chronic healthcare landscape...there needs to be a reassessment on the values of science based vs "evidence" based medicine...possibly a curse of our generation.
 
Well said, Sir. The truth will out but at what cost?
 
Agree 100% although I do find it a bit sad that most GP's take the "safe" approach and also apparently cease to strive to educate themselves further. There are of course quite a few notable exceptions but I'm afraid the vast majority just don't seem to be interested in one of the biggest "epidemics" of our times.

I agree - the general lack of intellectual curiosity - reported by many on this forum - is actually stunning given the enormity of this problem and its associated costs - in both financial and human terms. It really is a shame. There are exceptions of course; Dr. David Unwin immediately springs to mind. I loved his chapter in Diabetes Unpacked, and his presentation last week at BACPR 2017. I do believe that the word is slowly getting out and the momentum is building!
 
They view anecdotal evidence as non evidence...
But we are not bringing anecdotal evidence to the table, this is what is so frustrating! We are bringing actual, documented outcomes! Our weight is measured, recorded, and tracked by them; our blood is also tested by them for various relevant markers.
The evidence - their evidence - is right there, staring them in the face!
 
Just viewed a youtube vid by Dr. Steven Phinney and he talks of this inertia in the medical science world. He cites the publication of evidence based research by the Australian doctors who discovered the cause of some gastric ulcers being bacterial. The evidence was never refuted after publication but it was a full ten years before the 'establishment' started treating these ulcers with simple antibiotics. A full decade, why? and how many people suffered in the meantime? Call it doctrine or dogma or just plain ego but I call it nonsense.
Science is not static and if your science becomes personal to you then it festers.
 
I agree - the general lack of intellectual curiosity - reported by many on this forum - is actually stunning given the enormity of this problem and its associated costs - in both financial and human terms. It really is a shame. There are exceptions of course; Dr. David Unwin immediately springs to mind. I loved his chapter in Diabetes Unpacked, and his presentation last week at BACPR 2017. I do believe that the word is slowly getting out and the momentum is building!

It was after 2 years of observation and some online interaction with a Taiwanese endocrinologist that oversees hundreds of T2D and some T1D patients that I understood how deeply entrenched EBM hierarchy of evidence shaped their views...it results in a tunnel vision that disregards anything that is not admitted by RCT. Even after pointing him to this forum and Typeonegrit where hundreds of T1D found success with Dr Bernstein low carb approach, he considers it unsafe and unproven because there is no long term RCT trial. And hence have little clinical value...Pointing me to various EBM sources...saying that only the non-medically trained mind would accept anecdotal evidence :D.

So we are the fortunate few who have not been blinded by any medical training...

Coincidentally...
http://healthinsightuk.org/2015/07/...ing-patients-what-needs-to-be-done-to-fix-it/
Disenchanted with evidence based medicine
Dr David Unwin is a GP in the Liverpool area who has become increasingly disenchanted with what he calls the “religion” of EBM. ‘When it was first arrived I bought right into it,’ he says. ‘Thought it was absolutely what was needed to prevent drug disasters like the claim that HRT protected against heart disease rather than causing it.’

But increasingly he feels it has less and less relevance to what is actually going on in his surgery. GPs prescribing options are constrained by the supposedly EBM guidelines which tell doctors which RCT-approved drugs to prescribe for each condition, often when a biomarker reaches a certain level.

But this number is an average and takes no account of the individual differences. ‘If your blood pressure goes above 120/80, I’m supposed to put you on hypertension pills,’ says Unwin. ‘But I can measure your blood pressure on three different occasions and get three different values. Which one should I treat? And it gets even less clear. A placebo study found that blood pressure could vary a lot depending entirely on whether the patient had been told his level was fine and healthy or too high and he needed treating. What’s also needed is clinical judgement.’

It’s worth pointing out that Unwin is no isolated maverick. He’s an advisor to the Royal College of GPs on setting guidelines and last year his surgery was shortlisted for BMJ awards for both Diabetes Team of the Year and Primary care Team of the Year.
 
Last edited:
A full decade, why? and how many people suffered in the meantime?

@Guzzler, great point! Translating research into practice is a very real problem. The dissemination, implementation and improvement science (DII) literature is worth browsing for more information.
Here is a link to a good 2004 systematic review by Tricia Greenhalgh et al:

“Diffusion of Innovations in Service Organizations: Systematic Review and Recommendations”
http://www.chcanys.org/clientupload...eadership Articles/DiffusionofInnovations.pdf

As is this one from the Journal of the Royal Society of Medicine: “The answer is 17 years, what is the question: understanding time lags in translational research”
http://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1258/jrsm.2011.110180
 
It was after 2 years of observation and some online interaction with a Taiwanese endocrinologist that oversees hundreds of T2D and some T1D patients that I understood how deeply entrenched EBM hierarchy of evidence shaped their views...it results in a tunnel vision that disregards anything that is not admitted by RCT. Even after pointing him to this forum and Typeonegrit where hundreds of T1D found success with Dr Bernstein low carb approach, he considers it unsafe and unproven because there is no long term RCT trial. And hence have little clinical value...Pointing me to various EBM sources...saying that only the non-medically trained mind would accept anecdotal evidence :D.

So we are the fortunate few who have not been blinded by any medical training...

Coincidentally...
http://healthinsightuk.org/2015/07/...ing-patients-what-needs-to-be-done-to-fix-it/
I have not seen any trials of LCHF diet and until I do I shall reserve judgement. Low carb as a reducing diet seems to me a different kettle of fish altogether as it does not involve potentially excess fat.
 
I have not seen any trials of LCHF diet and until I do I shall reserve judgement. Low carb as a reducing diet seems to me a different kettle of fish altogether as it does not involve potentially excess fat.

Sorry, I don't follow you. "....potentially excess fat". Are you saying that excess fat is not lost on the LCHF diet? And here I must put in the caveat that for a very few people LCHF seems to have no bearing on weight loss.
 
I have not seen any trials of LCHF diet and until I do I shall reserve judgement. Low carb as a reducing diet seems to me a different kettle of fish altogether as it does not involve potentially excess fat.

Unfortunately there is unlikely going to be any RCT on LCHF, especially on the long term safety of the diet, so you may have to reserve your judgement for a couple more decades. Conversely...I don't think there were any RCT on the long term safety of the low fats, low calorie diet either...

While Dr Bernstein don't like to associate his approach with high fats...his recommended approach and the law of small numbers limits it to around 30g carbs/day. And you can probably have up to 1.5g protein/kg body weight...so the rest would have to come from fats...and it can be quite substantial compared to the ADA recommended low fat diet.
https://www.diabetesdaily.com/learn...es-diet/dr-bernsteins-low-carb-diabetes-diet/
Dr. Bernstein recommends eating no more than about 30 grams of carbohydrate per day. He advises consuming 6 grams of carbs with breakfast, 12 with lunch and 12 with dinner. The way he sees it, since carbohydrates are converted into glucose once in the body, carbs are basically sugar and sugar strongly impacts blood sugar levels.

He advises the avoidance of all grains, fruit, beans, starchy vegetables like potatoes and sweeteners.

That he has successfully used this approach for himself and his patients over the last few decades is good enough long term safety track record for me...so I didn't wait those RCT trials to confirm that it is safe.

That LCHF normalized my glucose levels within weeks seems less risky to me than the 2-30 years of elevated HbA1c needed to support the medications...
 
And on Youtube search for Charlotte Summers 'Low Carb Programme: 185.000 Anecdotes.'
The vid is part of the 'Low Carb Down Under' Lectures. This group we are members of? It plays a major part of the Diabetes education programme.
 
Low fat low cal is a reducing or weight loss diet. Such diets are not normally followed for long,so even if they are not ideal nutritionally they are unlikely to do any long term harm. Personally as I said above, I would go for the low carb diet as a reducing diet. The problem possibly comes when going on to a maintenance diet. No one would use low fat low cal for that, as they would continue to lose weight after they didn't need to.I think we need trials of the LCHF as a maintenance diet after the necessary weight has been lost.
 
Low fat low cal is a reducing or weight loss diet. Such diets are not normally followed for long,so even if they are not ideal nutritionally they are unlikely to do any long term harm. Personally as I said above, I would go for the low carb diet as a reducing diet. The problem possibly comes when going on to a maintenance diet. No one would use low fat low cal for that, as they would continue to lose weight after they didn't need to.I think we need trials of the LCHF as a maintenance diet after the necessary weight has been lost.

Perhaps you might like to check out the 'Success' section of the forum or, as I commented up thread, see Charlotte Summers' video on Youtube. I have lost weight on LCHF and have just entered the maintenance phase. I was not not overweight at dx so I have no wish to lose any more weight, so far it is going well and to be truthful I have no wish to return to the Western Diet. I am not alone.
 
Three assumptions at the outset: As individuals, we all want what is best for our health, and we want to live long, healthy and productive lives to the best of our abilities. Our health care providers entered their respective professions to help people achieve the above goals. There are no bad actors in the patient/health care provider couplet.

Systems Issues:

But sometimes systems issues get in the way of things. Take the concept of population health (PH) for example: the goal of PH is to improve care and outcomes while reducing overall spending. Two very noble goals, and, for a publicly funded system like the NHS, careful use of limited fiscal resources in one area increases capacity across the system.

In order to demonstrate responsible stewardship of public funds, care must be evidence-based, and outcomes, or proxy measures for outcomes, must be measured. The Quality Outcomes Framework (QOF) establishes the quality measures, and GP’s are incentivized to meet these targets. So, GP’s assume downside risk: if a patient does not meet specific biometric targets, funding for the GP’s practice will be less, and, as a consequence, patients may suffer.

Is it any wonder, under these pressures, that GP’s take the safe approach? They have seen their patients fail with ‘lifestyle measures’ again and again (especially as patients are advised to eat according to the Eat Well plate). So, the only rational approach in their world is to control what they can control and introduce medications early, and escalate them as necessary. Under these systemic pressures, Type 2 Diabetes can only be a progressive disease.

What are we doing at the Individual Level to Counter these Systemic Barriers?

As individuals, we have a very large role to play in co-producing our health, especially where T2DM is concerned. No health care provider can give us health, it must be co-produced. We all have a part to play, and our inputs matter very much to our health outcomes! However, we are all different, and our different personality types will mean that we will all approach our T2DM journey differently.

It is probably easiest for those of us who are detail-orientated. There is a lot of measuring and controlling, graphs and spreadsheets, and our trusted meters/CGM’s ensure that we have short feedback loops to keep us motivated. This works for our personalities. We are also inclined to do the necessary research, and, because traditional dietary advice has not worked for us in the past, we try to find out why. We know that we have been diligent in following the standard advice. It has failed us, we have not failed it.

So, we discover that the dietary advice we have been given over the past 40 years is based on flawed science (yes, there was at least one bad actor). We also discover there are pioneering health care providers who are leading the charge in showing that there is a different way to approach this disease – Dr. Jason Fung, Dr. David Unwin, Dr. Sarah Hallberg, Dr. Malcolm Kendrick, Dr. Lars-Erik Litsfeldt, Professor Tim Noakes, to name but a few. We discover health professionals who are facing strong push back from powerful special interests. And we also discover professionals who have a very powerful platform to drive appropriate dietary advice for our condition, Dr. John Schoonbee at Swiss Re for example.

We are also joined in our journey by others who use their unique skill set to approach this vexing problem - Is T2DM really a progressive disease, or one which can be managed through dietary means? Ivor Cummins, an engineer with expertise in complex problem solving and root cause analysis is but one example. On our forum we have members who think outside the box, and conduct their own n=1 experiments which they share with us on the forum.

And the forum itself: it provides us as individuals with the platform to share our experiences and to give and receive support from our peers. It also provides a platform for data capture so that the knowledge we collectively create may be shared with the wider community. And the knowledge we are collectively creating indicates - at least to me - that T2DM does not have to be a progressive disease.
A brilliant post Thankyou!.....as you have set out so clearly,we are the evidence.As someone who has ' toed the party line' for the last 15years,resulting in a worsening condition,I cannot understand why,after a. year of low carbing and steadily improving results the HCPs at my practice remain unconvinced and disinterested in my progress.At 79 I can't wait 20 yrs for them to get the 'evidence' they need!
 
Last edited:
Back
Top