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Population Health Metrics + Incorrect Dietary Advice = A Driver of Diabetes Progression?

Glenmac said:
A brilliant post Thankyou!.....as you have set out so clearly,we are the evidence.As someone who has ' toed the party line' for the last 15years,resulting in a worsening condition,I cannot understand why,after a. year of low carbing,the HCPs at my practice remain unconvinced and disinterested in my progress.
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Probably because like myself you are one of the few that has confounded their "way of doing things". They always seem amazed by my numbers yet poo-poo when I try to explain how they were attained.
 
bulkbiker said:
Probably because like myself you are one of the few that has confounded their "way of doing things". They always seem amazed by my numbers yet poo-poo when I try to explain how they were attained.
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I do hope that the extra cash that my progress has generated through the ¥€&₩ tick boxes (minus the cash for not accepting statins of course) goes into providing one GP with in my surgery with a book token with the understanding that I choose the book. ;)
 
Guzzler said:
I do hope that the extra cash that my progress has generated through the ¥€&₩ tick boxes (minus the cash for not accepting statins of course) goes into providing one GP with in my surgery with a book token with the understanding that I choose the book. ;)
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"Diabetes Unpacked"....?
 
Guzzler said:
Perhaps you might like to check out the 'Success' section of the forum or, as I commented up thread, see Charlotte Summers' video on Youtube. I have lost weight on LCHF and have just entered the maintenance phase. I was not not overweight at dx so I have no wish to lose any more weight, so far it is going well and to be truthful I have no wish to return to the Western Diet. I am not alone.
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It is not really losing weight that matters. You can lose weight on any lower calorie diet wherever you lose the calories from, be it carbs or fat.No doubt lots of people have successfully lost weight on low carb, myself included. The question I want answered by trials etc is what happens to people's cardiovascular health when they use low carb with high fat as a long term maintenance diet. By definition they then have to make up the lost carbs with extra fat, over and above the 30% that the eatwell and most other countries' versions of eatwell allow. If they are eating only,say, 20% of their calories from carbs they must be eating a total of 60% of their calories from fat. Diabetics in particular tend to have high levels of atheroma already and I would have thought would be the people least able to risk clogging their blood vessels further with fat. Even monounsaturated fat.
 
Tannith said:
and I would have thought would be the people least able to risk clogging their blood vessels further with fat. Even monounsaturated fat.
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There are alternative views...that suggest hyperinsulinemia and the resulting insulin resistance/glucose toxicity...may be the major contributor of atheroclerosis.
Insulin Resistance, Hyperglycemia, and Atherosclerosis
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3217209/

We have reviewed how insulin resistance and hyperglycemia may promote atherosclerosis at the level of the arterial wall, with special emphasis on in vivostudies when available. These studies have provided evidence that insulin resistance in macrophages and endothelial cells may play important roles in both atherogenesis and clinically relevant advanced plaque progression. Hyperglycemia, on the other hand, appears to primarily promote early stages of lesion formation, although it is possible that hyperglycemia acts synergistically with other CAD risk factors and even insulin resistance itself in advanced lesions.
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Tannith said:
Diabetics in particular tend to have high levels of atheroma already and I would have thought would be the people least able to risk clogging their blood vessels further with fat. Even monounsaturated fat.
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I would disagree with almost all of that statement..but seriously.. fat does not "clog" the arteries.. especially not when you are using it as your main fuel source.. I realise that you won't believe me but maybe someone else will.
 
Tannith said:
It is not really losing weight that matters. You can lose weight on any lower calorie diet wherever you lose the calories from, be it carbs or fat.No doubt lots of people have successfully lost weight on low carb, myself included. The question I want answered by trials etc is what happens to people's cardiovascular health when they use low carb with high fat as a long term maintenance diet. By definition they then have to make up the lost carbs with extra fat, over and above the 30% that the eatwell and most other countries' versions of eatwell allow. If they are eating only,say, 20% of their calories from carbs they must be eating a total of 60% of their calories from fat. Diabetics in particular tend to have high levels of atheroma already and I would have thought would be the people least able to risk clogging their blood vessels further with fat. Even monounsaturated fat.
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But we know what a high carb low fat diet does to us, it makes us obese (most of us), it increases inflammatory diseases and has caused an epidemic of diabetes that is imo in plague proportions. We definitely know that the high carb, low fat, western diet is killing us. If you still beleive in Ancel Keys' decidedly dodgy theory that has caused a fear of fat for the past fifty years then wait for the long term studies, ignore the thousands of people who have realised better health and start hoping that the studies don't prove too long.
 
Tannith said:
By definition they then have to make up the lost carbs with extra fat, over and above the 30% that the eatwell and most other countries' versions of eatwell allow. If they are eating only,say, 20% of their calories from carbs they must be eating a total of 60% of their calories from fat.
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There is always the option to increase protein as well as/instead of fats. I have been on maintenance for 3 years, and up to now my heart is still beating, and my cholesterol levels are still ideal, as is my BP. Adding back fats from protein sources is a good way of increasing calories, in my humble opinion. I just cannot understand why anyone with fully functional kidneys needs to avoid protein. (I know some T1s will argue it matters in their case as protein sometimes requires some extra insulin.). I believe protein is very important, and we need plenty of it to repair and renew our cells, build our muscles and stop muscle wastage. Particularly as we grow older. It doesn't take that many additional calories to stop unwanted weight loss.
 
Personally, I feel this post has been derailed long enough. My apologies Biggles2.
 
Guzzler said:
But we know what a high carb low fat diet does to us, it makes us obese (most of us), it increases inflammatory diseases and has caused an epidemic of diabetes that is imo in plague proportions. We definitely know that the high carb, low fat, western diet is killing us. If you still beleive in Ancel Keys' decidedly dodgy theory that has caused a fear of fat for the past fifty years then wait for the long term studies, ignore the thousands of people who have realised better health and start hoping that the studies don't prove too long.
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Is it the high carb low fat diet that causes obesity and diabetes etc? I would have thought it was the high everything diet. I don't know anyone at all that ever ate low fat except when on a weight loss diet.People don't choose low fat because it is not very palatable. I myself got fat eating high fat mostly, though I did not limit my carbs a great deal.My problem was not the eatwell plate but eating two eatwell plates! I think it is the quantity people eat that makes them fat, not the components of the diet. In my case I certainly got fat by eating too much of everything (except possibly actual sugar) I love carbs like potatoes but did not eat a great deal of sweet stuff.
 
Tannith said:
Is it the high carb low fat diet that causes obesity and diabetes etc? I would have thought it was the high everything diet. I don't know anyone at all that ever ate low fat except when on a weight loss diet.People don't choose low fat because it is not very palatable. I myself got fat eating high fat mostly, though I did not limit my carbs a great deal.My problem was not the eatwell plate but eating two eatwell plates! I think it is the quantity people eat that makes them fat, not the components of the diet. In my case I certainly got fat by eating too much of everything (except possibly actual sugar) I love carbs like potatoes but did not eat a great deal of sweet stuff.
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I believe it is mainly the carbs, but eating high everything make it worse. Carbs cause insulin spikes. Too much circulating insulin causes weight gain. Fats don't generally cause insulin spikes. Butter is the lowest of all on the insulin index.
 
Tannith said:
Is it the high carb low fat diet that causes obesity and diabetes etc? I would have thought it was the high everything diet. I don't know anyone at all that ever ate low fat except when on a weight loss diet.People don't choose low fat because it is not very palatable. I myself got fat eating high fat mostly, though I did not limit my carbs a great deal.My problem was not the eatwell plate but eating two eatwell plates! I think it is the quantity people eat that makes them fat, not the components of the diet. In my case I certainly got fat by eating too much of everything (except possibly actual sugar) I love carbs like potatoes but did not eat a great deal of sweet stuff.
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I'm someone who got morbidly obese from eating the wrong things. If a plate stuffed full of food is put in front of me it stops me wanting to eat it and it always has. I was a sugar junkie.
 
Tannith said:
Is it the high carb low fat diet that causes obesity and diabetes etc? I would have thought it was the high everything diet. I don't know anyone at all that ever ate low fat except when on a weight loss diet.People don't choose low fat because it is not very palatable. I myself got fat eating high fat mostly, though I did not limit my carbs a great deal.My problem was not the eatwell plate but eating two eatwell plates! I think it is the quantity people eat that makes them fat, not the components of the diet. In my case I certainly got fat by eating too much of everything (except possibly actual sugar) I love carbs like potatoes but did not eat a great deal of sweet stuff.
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How then do you explain the slim/thin T2s who have good portion control? Are you really saying that all T2s are greedy, that if only they could be stopped from filling their faces then the epidemic would disappear in a cloud of puff pastry? This conversation really is at an end now.
 
Tannith said:
I myself got fat eating high fat mostly, though I did not limit my carbs a great deal.My problem was not the eatwell plate but eating two eatwell plates!
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Our liver can't multitask very well...although it is a hybrid engine. It takes very little fructose, carbs and alcohol to hold it up...and that is when we start storing fats away instead of burning them.

And when we realize that T2D typically have insulin response several times higher than...it becomes rather clear why we are unable to burn fats all the time...the eatwell plate recommendation to have 1/3 portion as carbs and 5 meals a day would typically prevent the insulin levels from going low enough.
 
Guzzler said:
How then do you explain the slim/thin T2s who have good portion control? Are you really saying that all T2s are greedy, that if only they could be stopped from filling their faces then the epidemic would disappear in a cloud of puff pastry? This conversation really is at an end now.
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No, I am saying that I personally got too fat by eating too much. Not by eating a disproportionate amount of carbs. (Actually I mainly overate fat as I love cream, butter etc.). But by eating more calories than I burned, from whatever source, carbs or fats or both.
 
bulkbiker said:
I would disagree with almost all of that statement..but seriously.. fat does not "clog" the arteries.. especially not when you are using it as your main fuel source.. I realise that you won't believe me but maybe someone else will.
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Here are 2 articles which both say that even one fatty meal can damage the arteries immediately as well as in the long term. And that the effects are worse for diabetics etc:
https://www.newsmax.com/Health/Head...dall-Mediterranean-diet/2013/03/11/id/494050/

https://www.smithsonianmag.com/scie...affect-arteries-almost-immediately-101996025/
 
Tannith said:
Here are 2 articles which both say that even one fatty meal can damage the arteries immediately as well as in the long term. And that the effects are worse for diabetics etc:
https://www.newsmax.com/Health/Head...dall-Mediterranean-diet/2013/03/11/id/494050/

https://www.smithsonianmag.com/scie...affect-arteries-almost-immediately-101996025/
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From the first article the high fat meal was "The high-fat meal was a sandwich high in saturated fat consisting of sausage, egg, and cheese."
From the second article... the high fat meal was " a pair of greasy breakfast sandwiches"

So they are referring to probably the same study..and look at what the high fat meal is.. a sandwich.. which contains... carbohydrate.
So as we all know a meal high in fat and high in carbohydrate is bad.. how they can draw the conclusion that it is the fat god alone knows...
Also I haven't seen that many people drop down dead in front of me at Maccy D's after their breakfast have you?
 
Worth mentioning that almost all the rodent studies that refer to all the bad effects of "high fat" diets are actually talking about a high sugar/carb + high fat diet. The composition of the rat chow is disgusting!
 
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