Type 2

[purp]

Hi,

I have been type 2 diabetic for 2 years 6 months.
I started on the low carb high fat diet. My numbers were great, I was also fasting and things were going great. All of a sudden every morning my numbers were really high for me 16/18 I knew when it started because I check my blood every few days so I knew when it started.
I went to the doctor who put me on Metformin and my numbers have again came down to the 4-6 range. Just before the Metformin I had another DVT, I had one 10+ years ago. My doctor blamed my high fat diet and told me to stop doing it.
My cholesterol has all of a sudden went high, at 9 and I was put on statins and blood thinners.
My questions are 1/ why would my numbers all of a sudden shoot up in the morning only and 2/ do you think it would be ok to start my low carb diet again and my fasting?
Thanks for any help you can give me on this.

 

[Tannith]

The doctor told you to stop doing it.

 

[ickihun]

I don't do fasting but even none diabetics have glucose released into their blood system through the night (period of fasting).
I prevent liver dumping by having a fatty protein before bed and/or before I get out of bed.

Sounds to me like your body is releasing glucose from previously consumed carbs?

Is your body keeping hold of reserves incase you try to starve it?
It may be your body is overloaded with glucose so your body is circulating it to try and get rid of it from your organs and muscles.

Low carbing with low to medium fat works best for me. We all have different needs. You may have to investigate more, for yourself. You will find what's best for your body.

The hardest part for me is trying to keep everything religiously the same.

 

[Oldvatr]

It is unlikely that metformin would suddenly drop your bgl so well, considering your atatus declares you as being insulin dependant. So something else is going on.

I am not a medical man, but as I see it, a DVT is marking the place where a blood clot came to rest, but is not the source of it. So maybe it came from somewhere else where it interfered with your body operations in clearing blood glucose, i,e, somewhere vital. The clot moved, and maybe by doing so it freed the problem you had earlier. like breaking up a logjam moves it downstream. The speed of the glucose rise, and then the apparent miraculous fall must have some other explanation, especially if things are settled back down now. Think this is what you need to talk through with your doctor.

Edit to add: How do you know it is only morning. What other times do you regularly test. Would help if you post som pre and post eating readings when you noted the problem.

Although dawn phenomenon aka liver dump is a possibility, it would indeed be a rare event for it to be pushing you up into the 16+ range.

Edit: The followng text no longer applies since the OP is NOT an insulin user, and this text is irrelevant to their query.
Could it be a duff batch of insulin? Do you MDI or is it mainly basal control? It might help to know what other treatment other than the Meformin that you are using. I am of course assuming that your status is correct as ID.

 

[Mike d]

The doctor told you to stop doing it.

A question or a statement?

 

[purp]

The doctor told you to stop doing it.

Hi Tannith.

Yes it's been going great guns with the low carb and high fat. It's just really weird how it happened. I test myself every few days morning and night. I was diet controlled type 2. Anyway the doctor said my cholesterol was way to high he put me on statins and said to come of the high fat diet. Well I panicked q bit and just did it.

The doctor told you to stop doing it.

The doctor told you to stop doing it.

 

[purp]

I don't do fasting but even none diabetics have glucose released into their blood system through the night (period of fasting).
I prevent liver dumping by having a fatty protein before bed and/or before I get out of bed.

Sounds to me like your body is releasing glucose from previously consumed carbs?

Is your body keeping hold of reserves incase you try to starve it?
It may be your body is overloaded with glucose so your body is circulating it to try and get rid of it from your organs and muscles.

Low carbing with low to medium fat works best for me. We all have different needs. You may have to investigate more, for yourself. You will find what's best for your body.

The hardest part for me is trying to keep everything religiously the same.

I don't do fasting but even none diabetics have glucose released into their blood system through the night (period of fasting).
I prevent liver dumping by having a fatty protein before bed and/or before I get out of bed.

Sounds to me like your body is releasing glucose from previously consumed carbs?

Is your body keeping hold of reserves incase you try to starve it?
It may be your body is overloaded with glucose so your body is circulating it to try and get rid of it from your organs and muscles.

Low carbing with low to medium fat works best for me. We all have different needs. You may have to investigate more, for yourself. You will find what's best for your body.

The hardest part for me is trying to keep everything religiously the same.

Hi Ickihun,

Thanks for reply, I have been on the lchf diet for 2 years. Over the period of about 3-4 months I had the DVT the cholesterol going up and this mad reading about 8am every morning, way of the scale ( I checked the stripps and they seemed to work at night and in my other machine. I was pretty good at my diet and very rarely I would have a blow out once every couple of months with friends or something ( stopped smoking and basically drinking when diagnosed ) so months ago I had been having good reading in the morning highest was 8 or something very occasionally then the went up really high and stayed like that. At night it would be back to its normal. Just to start all over again. Just a bit confused with the whole thing.

 

[purp]

It is unlikely that metformin would suddenly drop your bgl so well, considering your atatus declares you as being insulin dependant. So something else is going on.

I am not a medical man, but as I see it, a DVT is marking the place where a blood clot came to rest, but is not the source of it. So maybe it came from somewhere else where it interfered with your body operations in clearing blood glucose, i,e, somewhere vital. The clot moved, and maybe by doing so it freed the problem you had earlier. like breaking up a logjam moves it downstream. The speed of the glucose rise, and then the apparent miraculous fall must have some other explanation, especially if things are settled back down now. Think this is what you need to talk through with your doctor.

Edit to add: How do you know it is only morning. What other times do you regularly test. Would help if you post som pre and post eating readings when you noted the problem.

Although dawn phenomenon aka liver dump is a possibility, it would indeed be a rare event for it to be pushing you up into the 16+ range. Could it be a duff batch of insulin? Do you MDI or is it mainly basal control? It might help to know what other treatment other than the Meformin that you are using. I am of course assuming that your status is correct as ID.

Hi oldvatr.

Sorry I'm not insulin dependant, I might have done something wrong then, I'll check.
Thank you for the detailed reply. It's difficult getting this down actually. Well harder than I thought. Lol
Let me try again. 21/2 Years ago I was told I was type 2 diabetic, studying internet decided to start lchf diet. I stayed pretty much non diabetic for 2 years with diet only. I did my own readings every couple of days morning and night they were always between 4-8 being the highest ever. One morning my reading was setting crazy like 18 and I thought can't be that. Washed my hands tried another 1 point difference. Opened another batch and tried the meter sticks again it was way to high so that night it was 8 or so maybe a bit higher did it again over a few straight days and it was very high again only in the morning. At night it would be ok. I decided to go to doctor who told me to stop the diet my blood hncb1 reading was 69 he told me and my cholesterol was 9 put on simvastatin 40mg one tab at night
Anyway put on Metformin 2 tablets for a month then if ok 4 tablets a day I was on 4 tablets pretty quick as I had no reaction to them say 4 tablets a day within 3 weeks. Everything was fine my readings were a lot better my cholesterol was down to 4.6 wearing a nice big lady's stocking up to my Naval ( thigh ) lol and on blood thinners got my next blood test 3 months later and it's down to 46 or something like that.
Just weird how it all happened so fast and why would they effect each other (if they did???) So that looks about right to me, I hope you make sense of it. Thanks

 

[ickihun]

Hi Ickihun,

Thanks for reply, I have been on the lchf diet for 2 years. Over the period of about 3-4 months I had the DVT the cholesterol going up and this mad reading about 8am every morning, way of the scale ( I checked the stripps and they seemed to work at night and in my other machine. I was pretty good at my diet and very rarely I would have a blow out once every couple of months with friends or something ( stopped smoking and basically drinking when diagnosed ) so months ago I had been having good reading in the morning highest was 8 or something very occasionally then the went up really high and stayed like that. At night it would be back to its normal. Just to start all over again. Just a bit confused with the whole thing.

How have you stopped smoking? Vapes? So no chest infections but dvt. No female pill risk of dvt either?
Not insulin dependant but tablet and diet controlled.
It does sound like not enough exercise to protect you from such a high fat diet. How much exercise do you do? Do you drive and sit alot?

Even none diabetics can get dvts thou remember.

I'd like you to monitor your bloods more too to see if high bgs have definitely gone.
What dvt treatment were you given?

 

[purp]

Hi Ickihun,

I smoked since I was 12 now 50 stoped a year ago, onto vape now. No chest infections No chance of DVT thru pill as I'm male ( lol that made me smile but Purp can be unclear, need to change that!!! )
Not insulin dependant, tablet and diet? controlled now ( diabetice runs in family ) problems with back and operation 3 years ago to remove disks and need another also lower back has trapped nervea. Used to be fit but now pretty low on the exercise as this day has left me in pain where first did not!
Yes I understand that DVT are pretty varied in the population because I'd already had one I was more susceptible to getting another, unfortunately I got another and my leg is so sore when weight is put in it. Not much physio can do. I do the exercises but it doesn't seem to be improving. Compared to the first time.
No problem I'll take more readings and get back to you.
Diet and fasting I quite enjoyed as,I'd made that life change and I enjoyed not eating for 16- 18 hours for a few days.
(Not sure if this is advisable now with the metformin, but I do find it easy and it keeps my blood sugars really good)
I hope I've given you enough, thanks for showing a interest.

 

[purp]

Sorry that top bit should say low on exercise as this DVT has left me in a lot of pain. ( None weight bearing )

 

[bulkbiker]

Hi,

I have been type 2 diabetic for 2 years 6 months.
I started on the low carb high fat diet. My numbers were great, I was also fasting and things were going great. All of a sudden every morning my numbers were really high for me 16/18 I knew when it started because I check my blood every few days so I knew when it started.
I went to the doctor who put me on Metformin and my numbers have again came down to the 4-6 range. Just before the Metformin I had another DVT, I had one 10+ years ago. My doctor blamed my high fat diet and told me to stop doing it.
My cholesterol has all of a sudden went high, at 9 and I was put on statins and blood thinners.
My questions are 1/ why would my numbers all of a sudden shoot up in the morning only and 2/ do you think it would be ok to start my low carb diet again and my fasting?
Thanks for any help you can give me on this.

Did the doctor give you a breakdown of your cholesterol numbers or just said "Its too high"?
Without the breakdown it is hard for anyone to analyse. Statins though have been known to increase blood glucose levels so I don't suppose your highs were after starting statins were they? Just a thought.
Your bloods went from 4-6 to 16-18 is that right? Were you ill at all?Sickness can cause elevated blood sugars.
@Tannith has said that your doctor said stop the intermittent fasting and high fat diet. Do you think your doctor is an expert in these things or do they just think "they are wrong". I personally listen to some of things my doctor says then usually ignore them and do my own research.. but that's the kind of person I am. Doctors are humans not gods and have been know to be uninformed and ignorant about some things. Apparently especially where Type 2 diabetes is concerned.

 

[bulkbiker]

The doctor told you to stop doing it.

You are assuming the doctor is a nutrition expert which is highly unlikely.

 

[Oldvatr]

Hi oldvatr.

Sorry I'm not insulin dependant, I might have done something wrong then, I'll check.
Thank you for the detailed reply. It's difficult getting this down actually. Well harder than I thought. Lol
Let me try again. 21/2 Years ago I was told I was type 2 diabetic, studying internet decided to start lchf diet. I stayed pretty much non diabetic for 2 years with diet only. I did my own readings every couple of days morning and night they were always between 4-8 being the highest ever. One morning my reading was setting crazy like 18 and I thought can't be that. Washed my hands tried another 1 point difference. Opened another batch and tried the meter sticks again it was way to high so that night it was 8 or so maybe a bit higher did it again over a few straight days and it was very high again only in the morning. At night it would be ok. I decided to go to doctor who told me to stop the diet my blood hncb1 reading was 69 he told me and my cholesterol was 9 put on simvastatin 40mg one tab at night
Anyway put on Metformin 2 tablets for a month then if ok 4 tablets a day I was on 4 tablets pretty quick as I had no reaction to them say 4 tablets a day within 3 weeks. Everything was fine my readings were a lot better my cholesterol was down to 4.6 wearing a nice big lady's stocking up to my Naval ( thigh ) lol and on blood thinners got my next blood test 3 months later and it's down to 46 or something like that.
Just weird how it all happened so fast and why would they effect each other (if they did???) So that looks about right to me, I hope you make sense of it. Thanks

Well I think we have covered the obvious possibilities, and I can only say that you hit a perfect storm in many ways, all at once. None of the usual culprits would suddenly send your bgl into orbit like that especially if you were doing an LC diet and keeping to the same or similar routines. I am also surprised that metformin had such a dramatic effect since it is not reknowned for its bgl control properties.

A HbA1c of 69 equates, I believe, to a daily average of around 8,5 mmol/l (UK) so indicates higher levels probably happening. Did you change your diet at around the same time? For liver dump to be noticed, it implies that the liver fat stores have been recharged by a high carb intake for a while previous, otherwise the liver holds onto its stores if successfully depleted by lc diet. I have been a bad boy recently with choc binges at night, but my morning bgl is usually less than 5 mmol/l so has not given me dumps so far. However we all differ, so you may be unfortunately sensitive. However a high cholesterol is often blamed on a high fat AND high carb diet, not high fat on it own which surprisingly for some actually lowers cholesterol markers, but is shown in recent studies to happen with LC diets. CSI would jump to the conclusion that some carbs had crept in unoticed.

 

[purp]

Did the doctor give you a breakdown of your cholesterol numbers or just said "Its too high"?
Without the breakdown it is hard for anyone to analyse. Statins though have been known to increase blood glucose levels so I don't suppose your highs were after starting statins were they? Just a thought.
Your bloods went from 4-6 to 16-18 is that right? Were you ill at all?Sickness can cause elevated blood sugars.
@Tannith has said that your doctor said stop the intermittent fasting and high fat diet. Do you think your doctor is an expert in these things or do they just think "they are wrong". I personally listen to some of things my doctor says then usually ignore them and do my own research.. but that's the kind of person I am. Doctors are humans not gods and have been know to be uninformed and ignorant about some things. Apparently especially where Type 2 diabetes is concerned.

Hi Bulkbiker,

My doctor was really surprised with my readings about as surprised as I was and when I was told that I had went into the diabetic range again I must say I was a bit shocked as I hadn't changed anything at all. My cholesterol reading was 9 when my blood was taken. Again I was shocked again at this and couldn't understand it, my doctor when I started the lchf diet is different to the one I have now, this one is very clued up on diabetics ( he came from a clinic in hospital for diabetics ) when it comes to lchf I would do it anyway. As I say I panicked with these readings and the DVT and the high cholesterol it happened all at about the same time. So I got scared my time was up!!! Lol
Everything seems to have settled down and I was going to start my diet anyway myself but as I say I'm a bit worried incase I kick start something else of. I am on the blood thinners for life so that in itself is a bit worrying. I was just thinking this was this just what happens with diabetics. You know diet for a few years until your body doesn't respond to that then it's pills for more years then the body can't cope with that then it's insulins dependant. I'm not sure I'm explaining this to well. Forgive me. Hope you get what I'm trying to say.
I also wonder it's as you say " just unlucky with the DVT and the high cholesterol?

 

[purp]

Well I think we have covered the obvious possibilities, and I can only say that you hit a perfect storm in many ways, all at once. None of the usual culprits would suddenly send your bgl into orbit like that especially if you were doing an LC diet and keeping to the same or similar routines. I am also surprised that metformin had such a dramatic effect since it is not reknowned for its bgl control properties.

A HbA1c of 69 equates, I believe, to a daily average of around 8,5 mmol/l (UK) so indicates higher levels probably happening. Did you change your diet at around the same time? For liver dump to be noticed, it implies that the liver fat stores have been recharged by a high carb intake for a while previous, otherwise the liver holds onto its stores if successfully depleted by lc diet. I have been a bad boy recently with choc binges at night, but my morning bgl is usually less than 5 mmol/l so has not given me dumps so far. However we all differ, so you may be unfortunately sensitive. However a high cholesterol is often blamed on a high fat AND high carb diet, not high fat on it own which surprisingly for some actually lowers cholesterol markers, but is shown in recent studies to happen with LC diets. CSI would jump to the conclusion that some carbs had crept in unoticed.

Hi Oldvatr,

Hitting the perfect storm is a good way of saying it that's for sure.
No nothing no change of diet or anything, onemi Ute I'm doing great then it all went wrong for me. Im just wondering about going back ontoy lchf diet and fasting again as it all seems to have calmed down again. I still have no weight bearing on my leg. It seems different than the first one I had. I'm also on blood thinners ( not warfarin ) and it worries me if I have a fall so probably a bit more worried than usual ( not indestructible any more lol hahaha )
Was it just plain bad luck this all happened at the same time?? Not sure of any way of confirming this.
My main thing now is my diet and fasting? My numbers were great for a long time and are good again, back into pre diabetic range. Maybe someone has had two of these second DVT and diabetics or perhaps all three and on the diet? It's just things going thru my head at the moment.

 

[DavidGrahamJones]

My questions are 1/ why would my numbers all of a sudden shoot up in the morning only and 2/ do you think it would be ok to start my low carb diet again and my fasting?

1) Exactly the same happened to me after 4 years low carb (40gms a day), I hadn't increased my fat intake to compensate for fewer calories because my stomach doesn't like too much fat, probably all those years of low fat this, that and the other. I'm still struggling a bit after 18 months, most recent HbA1c was 51, the dawn phenomenon is a right pain in the backside. I was already on just Metformin and luckily my GP was happy for me to refine my diet, if I could find out what the problem was. I think she also realised that prescribing something like Gliclazide would be a bit like cracking open a nut with a sledge hammer and she's also aware that I want to lose weight. It might bring the morning reading down but could cause problems during the rest of the day when my BG sits quite happily between 5 and 7. In the past we've tried Januvia which is supposed to make the pancreas produce more insulin, but only when needed, but I felt awful, depressed, lethargic, stuffy nose, joint and muscle pain, no energy.

I don't eat after 7pm and that is usually just vegetables (no root vegetables) and some protein (fish, meat, sometimes cheese).

What I have discovered for me personally, is that if I just have vegetables for a day or two, just two meals of things like courgette, onion, pepper, mushroom, tomato, egg plant (can be made into soup or just baked) maybe with a small sprinkling of cheese, then I can "flatten" out my morning readings. Other times I might have evening meals with just steamed broccoli, cauliflower, leaks. When I have flattened out my BG (FS Libre has been a godsend), just eating 2 eggs will cause a slight blip, so I would hazard a guess and say protein is being converted to glucose.

2) This is only an opinion, but I think the HF bit has to be quantified. What exactly is high fat? I've tried googling for an answer and get anything between 40 and 70 gms fat a day, which, if my reading is correct, should equate to about 400 to 700 calories worth. It's quite probable that because I'v avoided fat for most of my life having a LCLF diet was never a problem. I actually stopped taking statins after going low carb and my total cholesterol never went above 4 except for when I was advised by my GP to eat more which I did by adding things like full fat milk, full fat yogurt and cream in my coffee. Net result was gaining ten pounds and TC went up to 5.7. So, low fat for me. Other people will be different and it's somewhat of a trial and error exercise.

I think the low carb and fasting will be fine, just watch the fat content.

 

[zand]

Are you taking CoQ10 with the statins? If you take statins you need CoQ10 as well. It's amazing the number of doctors who don't seem to know/act on this simple fact.

 

[Oldvatr]

Hi Oldvatr,

Hitting the perfect storm is a good way of saying it that's for sure.
No nothing no change of diet or anything, onemi Ute I'm doing great then it all went wrong for me. Im just wondering about going back ontoy lchf diet and fasting again as it all seems to have calmed down again. I still have no weight bearing on my leg. It seems different than the first one I had. I'm also on blood thinners ( not warfarin ) and it worries me if I have a fall so probably a bit more worried than usual ( not indestructible any more lol hahaha )
Was it just plain bad luck this all happened at the same time?? Not sure of any way of confirming this.
My main thing now is my diet and fasting? My numbers were great for a long time and are good again, back into pre diabetic range. Maybe someone has had two of these second DVT and diabetics or perhaps all three and on the diet? It's just things going thru my head at the moment.

I too am on blood thinners having had 2 srtrokes in quick succession, then a heart attack. Certainly being diabetic does seem to increase the odds of this type of complication. I was a smoker at the time, and this thickens the blood, so clots do form more readily it seems. I was not on any lc diet at the time of my events, so that was not contributory to my events

If the blood thinner you are on is Clopidogrel or aspirin type, then you should also have a PPI med to protect the stomach lining to reduce risk of ulcers developing. But PPI and thinners do have interactions with diabetic meds, which has been discussed in other threads in the forum.