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Protein and blood sugar

Sharrryn

Sharrryn

Well-Known Member
Messages
196
Location
Australia
Type of diabetes
Type 1
Treatment type
Pump
Hi
I’m desperate to put on weight so have been increasing protein eg cheese,eggs, fish with my normal meals (soft foods for gastroparesis) I find my blood sugars are increasing quite a bit. I’m not sure if it’s due to an increase in my antidepressant dose or the extra protein. Does anyone bolus for protein and how much ???
Thanks
 
I don't but I'm going to tag @Mel dCP because she is on low carb diet and I think she changes her insulin for protein, especially when eating 3 tons of fish.

I'm sure others do and will be along in a while :)
 
Morning! Thanks for the tag, @Knikki :)

What sort of carb intake do you have? If you’re eating a fair amount of carbs, you probably don’t need to dose for protein, as the body won’t be breaking it down for glucose, because it gets what it wants from the carbohydrate.

I don’t eat mammal meat or poultry but I do eat fish and eggs for protein - plus what’s in my plant based foods. I’ve found that I get a rise a few hours after eating shellfish and white fish - the lean stuff, basically. I don’t from fatty fish like salmon and mackerel. I give insulin for the protein grams at half the amount I would for the same grammage of carbs, I’m 1:10 for carbs, so 1:20 for protein in the evenings (your mileage may vary). Handily, I have a pump, so I set it all up just before I eat to deliver the dose to cover the carbs immediately and then the dose for the fish over two hours. When I was injecting, I’d set an alarm to do the protein dose an hour after the meal.

Meat eaters in my various groups have found by trial and error the best ratios and timings for red meat and chicken - it can vary by animal, fat content, cut...

Hope this helps :)
 
Mel dCP said:
Morning! Thanks for the tag, @Knikki :)

What sort of carb intake do you have? If you’re eating a fair amount of carbs, you probably don’t need to dose for protein, as the body won’t be breaking it down for glucose, because it gets what it wants from the carbohydrate.

I don’t eat mammal meat or poultry but I do eat fish and eggs for protein - plus what’s in my plant based foods. I’ve found that I get a rise a few hours after eating shellfish and white fish - the lean stuff, basically. I don’t from fatty fish like salmon and mackerel. I give insulin for the protein grams at half the amount I would for the same grammage of carbs, I’m 1:10 for carbs, so 1:20 for protein in the evenings (your mileage may vary). Handily, I have a pump, so I set it all up just before I eat to deliver the dose to cover the carbs immediately and then the dose for the fish over two hours. When I was injecting, I’d set an alarm to do the protein dose an hour after the meal.

Meat eaters in my various groups have found by trial and error the best ratios and timings for red meat and chicken - it can vary by animal, fat content, cut...

Hope this helps :)
Click to expand...
Thanks for your reply Mel. I eat around 160g carbs per day. It’s a massive increase to what I used to have which was around 80 per day but since I’ve lost so much weight the dietician wants me to increase carbs and calories quite a bit. I find lately my overall blood sugar is getting higher and my bedtime sugar is good but rises about two hours later. Im adjusting doses and correcting a lot. Not on the pump anymore - back on injections but may consider dosing an hour or two after for high protein meals if these high sugars continue. Trial and error I guess.
Thanks so much for your input :) :)
 
Glucneogenesis is the process where protein is converted to glucose by the liver. Usually around 10-20% of protein will be converted.
 
Mel dCP said:
Morning! Thanks for the tag, @Knikki :)

What sort of carb intake do you have? If you’re eating a fair amount of carbs, you probably don’t need to dose for protein, as the body won’t be breaking it down for glucose, because it gets what it wants from the carbohydrate.

I don’t eat mammal meat or poultry but I do eat fish and eggs for protein - plus what’s in my plant based foods. I’ve found that I get a rise a few hours after eating shellfish and white fish - the lean stuff, basically. I don’t from fatty fish like salmon and mackerel. I give insulin for the protein grams at half the amount I would for the same grammage of carbs, I’m 1:10 for carbs, so 1:20 for protein in the evenings (your mileage may vary). Handily, I have a pump, so I set it all up just before I eat to deliver the dose to cover the carbs immediately and then the dose for the fish over two hours. When I was injecting, I’d set an alarm to do the protein dose an hour after the meal.

Meat eaters in my various groups have found by trial and error the best ratios and timings for red meat and chicken - it can vary by animal, fat content, cut...

Hope this helps :)
Click to expand...

I was just going to post something in relation to this topic tonight because of my frustrations dealing with glucose spike from protein. Maybe you can help me @Mel dCP

I do a 1:10 on carbs and act as 20% of my protein is converted into carbohydrates and then still use a 1:10. Unlike your situation though, for every meal i eat once or twice a day (per meal 15g carbs from vegetables/nuts/cheese, 90g protein from eggs/fish/chicken/red meat and 80-90g fat from meat/olive oil/nuts/dairy/coconut oil) I have to bolus 3 times per meal. Once before eating, 3 hours after eating, and then again in another 3-4 hours. If I don't blood sugars would stay around 12 mmol/L but when I bolus they hang around 6-10.5 mmol/L. (This is based on a non intensive exercise day, i'm trying to figure out how to not be trapped by exercising is the only way to achieve good blood sugars now)

I also noticed pink salmon has the best effect on my blood sugars compared to all meat.

I'm just not understanding why i'm requiring so much insulin from low a carb ketogenic diet. I was under the consensus that low carb high fat, and protein equivalent to my lean body mass should result in less insulin but on non exercise days it goes from 3 units of novarapid to 12 units. This probably says I have some insulin resistance still BUT that's a huge increase.

Despite being on this diet for over 3 months there are many days where I feel like i'm not satiated, like i'm missing some important food or nutrient that's making me want to continue to eat which makes it extremely hard. The bizarre thing is this hunger feeling goes away when I exercise.

I don't know.. I've been constantly testing and trying things but when you feel like you want to eat because your body is missing something it makes this whole thing very difficult.
 
Hi @Brendon.Dean - that diet sounds familiar - I'm assuming that you're trying to gain mass? It's very similar to the one I was on when doing a body transformation program.

What I would suggest is that you confirm that your basal requirements haven't changed when eating this way. One of the side effects of Low Carb for some is physiological insulin resistance, which isn't necessarily large, but it may be enough to have marginally increased your needs for basal. If that isn't correct, then you'll see larger rises and what appears to be incorrect responses to your short acting insulin.

I also suspect, given the size of a meal like that, you'll be seeing a side effect of the liver releasing glucose early in the digestive process, which won't be properly handled by your insulin. It might be worth eating splitting what you're eating up into more than one meal - 1230 calories (you're current macros come out at that) is a lot for the body, and that won't help with the issues you're seeing.
 
I’m afraid I can’t be of much help - one of those meals would be my entire day’s food intake, and I’m pretty sedentary.

Have you done basal rate testing? Needing to bolus six to seven hours after food suggests that it might need looking at.

What are your basal:bolus ratios? Typically on keto it’s around 70:30 - 90:10
 
tim2000s said:
Hi @Brendon.Dean - that diet sounds familiar - I'm assuming that you're trying to gain mass? It's very similar to the one I was on when doing a body transformation program.

What I would suggest is that you confirm that your basal requirements haven't changed when eating this way. One of the side effects of Low Carb for some is physiological insulin resistance, which isn't necessarily large, but it may be enough to have marginally increased your needs for basal. If that isn't correct, then you'll see larger rises and what appears to be incorrect responses to your short acting insulin.

I also suspect, given the size of a meal like that, you'll be seeing a side effect of the liver releasing glucose early in the digestive process, which won't be properly handled by your insulin. It might be worth eating splitting what you're eating up into more than one meal - 1230 calories (you're current macros come out at that) is a lot for the body, and that won't help with the issues you're seeing.
Click to expand...

I'm actually trying to lose some more body fat, I believe around 10lbs of fat but I lift just as if I were trying to put on muscle mass so I push myself to failure in the gym.

Can you explain further physiological insulin resistance? I believe my basal is in check because during several 44 hour fasts my basal held my blood sugars in my range for the first 24 hours before my insulin resistance decreased and I actually had to reduce insulin to keep from going low.

What you are saying makes sense to me in terms of eating too much at one sitting which does I think exactly what you are saying. One problem I have is, my body is extraordinarily hungry from the exercise I do and wants more food. The moment in time I switched to more frequent and intense exercise I noticed I began having issues because I had to increase the amount of food I ate.

I can go back to trying 2 meals again and focus more on what's happening this time.

Really appreciate the feedback, thank you.
 
Mel dCP said:
I’m afraid I can’t be of much help - one of those meals would be my entire day’s food intake, and I’m pretty sedentary.

Have you done basal rate testing? Needing to bolus six to seven hours after food suggests that it might need looking at.

What are your basal:bolus ratios? Typically on keto it’s around 70:30 - 90:10
Click to expand...

Thank you for the reply.

During fasts of 44 hours my blood sugars remain in range the first 24 hours and begin to lower past that which requires reduced basal.

I just looked and on my days I eat my said diet above I come out at 67-73% bolus and the remaining 27%-33% basal.

On the days I loose control and can't stop eating nuts, or eat more protein or butter on broccoli my needs of insulin increase and my ratios are bolus 44% basal 56%.

I'm noticing and I could just be outright wrong.. but it's almost like insulin resistance when I eat more than 2 servings of cheese and if I even eat any dairy paste the afternoon.
 
Brendon.Dean said:
Thank you for the reply.

During fasts of 44 hours my blood sugars remain in range the first 24 hours and begin to lower past that which requires reduced basal.

I just looked and on my days I eat my said diet above I come out at 67-73% bolus and the remaining 27%-33% basal.

On the days I loose control and can't stop eating nuts, or eat more protein or butter on broccoli my needs of insulin increase and my ratios are bolus 44% basal 56%.

I'm noticing and I could just be outright wrong.. but it's almost like insulin resistance when I eat more than 2 servings of cheese and if I even eat any dairy paste the afternoon.
Click to expand...

44 hours fasting is a very long time. !
 
Brendon.Dean said:
Thank you for the reply.

During fasts of 44 hours my blood sugars remain in range the first 24 hours and begin to lower past that which requires reduced basal.

I just looked and on my days I eat my said diet above I come out at 67-73% bolus and the remaining 27%-33% basal.

On the days I loose control and can't stop eating nuts, or eat more protein or butter on broccoli my needs of insulin increase and my ratios are bolus 44% basal 56%.

I'm noticing and I could just be outright wrong.. but it's almost like insulin resistance when I eat more than 2 servings of cheese and if I even eat any dairy paste the afternoon.
Click to expand...
I wish I knew, tbh. My insulin needs don’t seem to vary according to the composition of my meals, but I never eat 90g protein in one go. I have a job getting that much in a day because I can’t eat meat.

My insulin ranges from 75-90% basal and the rest (10-25%) bolus.
 
Chris Bowsher said:
44 hours fasting is a very long time. !
Click to expand...
I follow Dr. Jason Fung's protocols; I've read his book on fasting and according to him a 44 hour fast isn't that long at all. Optimal results of fasting begin after the first 48 hours and usually people go between 5-7 days or an extended 14 day fast.
 
Mel dCP said:
I wish I knew, tbh. My insulin needs don’t seem to vary according to the composition of my meals, but I never eat 90g protein in one go. I have a job getting that much in a day because I can’t eat meat.

My insulin ranges from 75-90% basal and the rest (10-25%) bolus.
Click to expand...

You are so fortunate that your bolus doses are such nice low percentages :)

One day i'm going to have the same result as you every day and not just some!

Yeah the protein I thought was an issue but I just don't feel like that's the culprit so what I've decided is I am eliminating dairy and nuts from my diet since it's a known issue for people with auto immune diseases. Also in the mean time, I'm going to try and get into this program in Toronto ran by a doctor named Jason Fung who specializes in type 2 diabetics and the liver. I'm pretty sold on the fact that i'm dealing with insulin resistance and even a possible slowed metabolism; since I lost 60 lbs in 7 months and extremely hungry all the time, this is kind of on par with the "Biggest Loser" effect (yes the show) on how they loose a ton of weight by focusing on calorie restriction (which I sort of did) via food and exercise which causes the metabolism to slow and eventually cause you to start gaining it all back. We'll see though!
 
Mel dCP said:
Morning! Thanks for the tag, @Knikki :)

What sort of carb intake do you have? If you’re eating a fair amount of carbs, you probably don’t need to dose for protein, as the body won’t be breaking it down for glucose, because it gets what it wants from the carbohydrate.

I don’t eat mammal meat or poultry but I do eat fish and eggs for protein - plus what’s in my plant based foods. I’ve found that I get a rise a few hours after eating shellfish and white fish - the lean stuff, basically. I don’t from fatty fish like salmon and mackerel. I give insulin for the protein grams at half the amount I would for the same grammage of carbs, I’m 1:10 for carbs, so 1:20 for protein in the evenings (your mileage may vary). Handily, I have a pump, so I set it all up just before I eat to deliver the dose to cover the carbs immediately and then the dose for the fish over two hours. When I was injecting, I’d set an alarm to do the protein dose an hour after the meal.

Meat eaters in my various groups have found by trial and error the best ratios and timings for red meat and chicken - it can vary by animal, fat content, cut...

Hope this helps :)
Click to expand...
Would the extended bolus feature on the pump be an alternative way to time the part of the bolus to deal with the protein without having to remember to bolus an hour after the first bolus?
 
Brendon.Dean said:
I follow Dr. Jason Fung's protocols; I've read his book on fasting and according to him a 44 hour fast isn't that long at all. Optimal results of fasting begin after the first 48 hours and usually people go between 5-7 days or an extended 14 day fast.
Click to expand...
If I fast > 14 hours I start to develop ketones which increases my insulin resistance. What proof is there that a 44 hour fast helps T1Ds?
 
Last edited:
Brendon.Dean said:
You are so fortunate that your bolus doses are such nice low percentages :)

One day i'm going to have the same result as you every day and not just some!

Yeah the protein I thought was an issue but I just don't feel like that's the culprit so what I've decided is I am eliminating dairy and nuts from my diet since it's a known issue for people with auto immune diseases. Also in the mean time, I'm going to try and get into this program in Toronto ran by a doctor named Jason Fung who specializes in type 2 diabetics and the liver. I'm pretty sold on the fact that i'm dealing with insulin resistance and even a possible slowed metabolism; since I lost 60 lbs in 7 months and extremely hungry all the time, this is kind of on par with the "Biggest Loser" effect (yes the show) on how they loose a ton of weight by focusing on calorie restriction (which I sort of did) via food and exercise which causes the metabolism to slow and eventually cause you to start gaining it all back. We'll see though!
Click to expand...
What about carb reduction rather than calorie restriction? And I had read that up to 50% of protein is converted to glucose.
 
Brendon.Dean said:
Thank you for the reply.

During fasts of 44 hours my blood sugars remain in range the first 24 hours and begin to lower past that which requires reduced basal.

I just looked and on my days I eat my said diet above I come out at 67-73% bolus and the remaining 27%-33% basal.

On the days I loose control and can't stop eating nuts, or eat more protein or butter on broccoli my needs of insulin increase and my ratios are bolus 44% basal 56%.

I'm noticing and I could just be outright wrong.. but it's almost like insulin resistance when I eat more than 2 servings of cheese and if I even eat any dairy paste the afternoon.
Click to expand...
Is it worth trialling soy milk instead of dairy or use A2 protein dairy to see if either have the same effect as A1 protein dairy?
 
kitedoc said:
Would the extended bolus feature on the pump be an alternative way to time the part of the bolus to deal with the protein without having to remember to bolus an hour after the first bolus?
Click to expand...
I've tried the extended bolus feature but it acts similar to the basal setting in terms of it ticks in insulin every 5 minutes for example over the time period I set and it doesn't provide a stable solution.
 
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