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A curious bit of research..

Caeseji

Caeseji

Well-Known Member
Messages
658
Location
Hull
Type of diabetes
Type 2
Treatment type
Diet only
Dislikes
Self-fellating idiots that don't at all look at other people's views
https://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2019-05/uoe-rri051519.php

For once I don't have to quote https://twitter.com/justsaysinmice at all here as they are using a human model for once and it's something I find most stimulating. The fact that our own expression of beta cell mutation do not go into being alpha cells but delta cells (and produce a substance that has statin in it actually amused me) was a interesting thing. The fact this applies to both types as well from the looks of the article but also the fact that 'restoring them to a normal environment' may explain why some even more advanced type 2 diabetics (such as 10+ years) can achieve a sort of remission and even reactivation of beta cells. Seems we may be getting a little closer to the how and why remission has started to become a little more commonplace.

Curious as well that they feel that they can use some sort of therapy too to stimulate the change back to being beta cells. Thought I would share as it opens a few more doors into the physiology of the condition.
 
but why remission is maybe possible in long term type 2 diabetics could be because the very low carb/ the 800 calorie diet / the intermittent fasting forces the body back into a low blood glucose internal invironment and thereby gives the body a chance to change back to normal..
 
Caeseji said:
https://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2019-05/uoe-rri051519.php

For once I don't have to quote https://twitter.com/justsaysinmice at all here as they are using a human model for once and it's something I find most stimulating. The fact that our own expression of beta cell mutation do not go into being alpha cells but delta cells (and produce a substance that has statin in it actually amused me) was a interesting thing. The fact this applies to both types as well from the looks of the article but also the fact that 'restoring them to a normal environment' may explain why some even more advanced type 2 diabetics (such as 10+ years) can achieve a sort of remission and even reactivation of beta cells. Seems we may be getting a little closer to the how and why remission has started to become a little more commonplace.

Curious as well that they feel that they can use some sort of therapy too to stimulate the change back to being beta cells. Thought I would share as it opens a few more doors into the physiology of the condition.
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Great article thanks for linking.. only problem being that they can't really tell until the subjects are dead!
 
bulkbiker said:
Great article thanks for linking.. only problem being that they can't really tell until the subjects are dead!
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Well if you ask the medical community we're all going to chronically degenerate and die! ;) There has been some breakthroughs in creating human like systems to research too so that may be the next step to grow that sort of thing.
 
Interesting article so thanks a lot for linking it. So the old understanding was that beta cells burnt out through overuse in type 2 yet we know from the Direct Study (800 kcal), IF and bariatric surgery (patients rapidly lose the fat around their pancreas and liver and therefore return the environment to normal allowing recovery of beta cells.
My beta cells died circa 1981 but I don't think many type 1s are told that they may be able to preserve their remaining beta cells with a low carb diet and thus elongate their 'honeymoon' period. Not sure what my own beta cells have reverted to but I know that due to the effects of those alpha cells (gluco neogensis) then having any kind of normal beta cell function is worth fighting for.
Hopefully this kind of research may evolve into clinical practice now that the dietary paradignms may be changing too.
 
NicoleC1971 said:
Interesting article so thanks a lot for linking it. So the old understanding was that beta cells burnt out through overuse in type 2 yet we know from the Direct Study (800 kcal), IF and bariatric surgery (patients rapidly lose the fat around their pancreas and liver and therefore return the environment to normal allowing recovery of beta cells.
My beta cells died circa 1981 but I don't think many type 1s are told that they may be able to preserve their remaining beta cells with a low carb diet and thus elongate their 'honeymoon' period. Not sure what my own beta cells have reverted to but I know that due to the effects of those alpha cells (gluco neogensis) then having any kind of normal beta cell function is worth fighting for.
Hopefully this kind of research may evolve into clinical practice now that the dietary paradignms may be changing too.
Click to expand...

I think the key thing to remember with the Direct Study (regarding this context) is the Direct was restricted to people who had not been T2 for very long, and the reversal successes were not universal. Latest data was that under 50% of participants achieved 'remission/reversal' which is categorised as an HbA1c under 48mmol/mol for 6 months without the use of diabetes medication. Over time, this success rate decreases as some of the study participants return to T2 status.

So while it looks as if some T2s can get their beta cell function back, it is only shown to work for some people, and it does not really inform us about the rest of the T2s who have a different experience, nor does it give us a full understanding of what is happening to the beta cells.

Also, as Professor Taylor himself has stated, it isn't the speed of the weight loss in the Direct Study that causes reversal, it is the weight loss itself. Nor is it the shakes, or the 800 calories that cause the reversal. It is simply the weight loss from the liver and pancreas. So any weight loss method, slow or fast, can achieve the same results.
 
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Regarding the article above:
Thanks @Caeseji
Fascinating. And very interesting that the piece finishes with
Professor Harries said: "The really exciting finding is that in the laboratory at least, we have been able to reverse the changes - turn the delta cells back to beta cells - if we restore the environment to normal, or if we treat the cells with chemicals that restore the regulator genes and the patterns of RNA messages made to normal. That's very promising when we consider the potential for new therapeutics."
Which suggests they intend to treat the cells with chemicals.

Although the line 'if we restore the environment to normal' could be interpreted as causing weight loss for overweight T2s, or eliminating the autoimmune killing action for T1s.
Very interesting.

Edited for typos.
 
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Brunneria said:
Regarding the article above:
Thanks @Caeseji
Fascinating. And very interesting that the piece finishes with
Professor Harries said: "The really exciting finding is that in the laboratory at least, we have been able to reverse the changes - turn the delta cells back to beta cells - if we restore the environment to normal, or if we treat the cells with chemicals that restore the regulator genes and the patterns of RNA messages made to normal. That's very promising when we consider the potential for new therapeutics."
Which suggests they intend to treat the cells with chemicals.

Although the line 'if we restore the environment to normal' could be interpreted as causing weight loss for overweight T2s, or eliminating the autoimmune killing action for T1s.
Very interesting.

Edited for typos.
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It may be the last paradigm that we've been looking for in regards to Diabetes and what changes do overtake the body in regards to beta cells. Insulin Resistance and autoimmune processes not so much however as there is a raging debate over that but it shows the remarkable ability the body has in responding to such changes and healing over time too. It goes to show too that some people have reversed their own with other diets with weight loss as a part of it which will have returned the environment back to normal. However I will always say reducing the glucose load the body has to deal with and insulin is always a good thing in the terms of long-term health. I did find it interesting that they would say that though, offering a differing viewpoint however tentative that it can be done outside of chemical or pharmaceutical means.

bulkbiker said:
For those of a more scientific bent the full paper is here
https://academic.oup.com/hmg/advance-article/doi/10.1093/hmg/ddz094/5487670?searchresult=1
I am slightly concerned about the opening statement though
"A reduction in beta cell mass occurs during the progression of type 2 diabetes" which so far as I know is a theory and not "proven" I have asked a few scientific types on Twitter will let you know the outcome.
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Thanks for posting that! Yeah it kind of contradicts what they were looking at and actually proved via this doesn't it? Not a real loss of mass but more of a transition to a differing cell type that could be restored.
 
Another observation would be that there is no mention of the medication regime the T2's who had died were following.. I wonder if the pancreas had been stressed before death by the treatment regime hence the beta cell die off. I'll e-mail the authors and ask.
 
bulkbiker said:
Another observation would be that there is no mention of the medication regime the T2's who had died were following.. I wonder if the pancreas had been stressed before death by the treatment regime hence the beta cell die off. I'll e-mail the authors and ask.
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Thank you, that would really be a great help. Makes me wonder what has been used honestly, insulin therapy or sulphonylurea would be my guess if it was a stress death/mutation to the beta cells.
 
Caeseji said:
Thank you, that would really be a great help. Makes me wonder what has been used honestly, insulin therapy or sulphonylurea would be my guess if it was a stress death/mutation to the beta cells.
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Reply has come back... they don't know..
Screenshot 2019-05-17 at 15.36.29.png

I have replied with a possible challenge and also mentioned the opening statement... !
 
This whole beta cell death in T2DM doesn’t sit well with me at all. Whilst I’m sure it can and does happen in some cases, I’m increasingly leaning towards Fung’s reversible fatty pancreas explanation. I feel as though “beta cell death” in the context of resistant diabetes is largely just a catchphrase that gets knocked about.
 
bulkbiker said:
View attachment 32955
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Oh man I seriously appreciate that Mark, it's great they agreed for them to be shared and are accepting of the dietary intervention for remission too. Plus wishing for the layman to look into it too shows a clean openness that I find refreshing after the ahem... Twitter engagements with most non-LCHF doctors. Would be interesting if they could use differing pancreas' for differing drug and diet therapies but I know that is hardly feasible. Plus the point about metformin was rather intriguing. This all makes me so excited because there will be up and coming scientific basis for using diet for reversal if this becomes mainstream!

Jim Lahey said:
This whole beta cell death in T2DM doesn’t sit well with me at all. Whilst I’m sure it can and does happen in some cases, I’m increasingly leaning towards Fung’s reversible fatty pancreas explanation. I feel as though “beta cell death” in the context of resistant diabetes is largely just a catchphrase that gets knocked about.
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That's how I feel too Jim, it would happen if it was an autoimmune or viral attack or any kind of issue with the pancreas to do with trauma but for standard T2's? If my beta cells were dead, after my year of abuse mine should be heading to meet Cerberus for entry into the underworld but I am seeing my bloods being very low these days so there must be some 'grain' or not so much grain of truth to the hypothesis.
 
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