Newcastle Diet day 1 !!

[ajbod]

You will need a plan for after the ND diet, otherwise most of the weight will probably rapidly return. I take 1000 Mg of Metformin a day, and although my hbA1c is still just not diabetic levels, this is for the benefits of the circulatory system.

 

[Diablo T2]

First week of Newcastle diet and 9kg down after my GP diagnosis mid December. I started the ND on 27th December after trying to conventionally diet for the first 2 weeks and doing as much research into type 2 reversal as I could.

Got an appointment with the diabetic nurse on Monday and concerned that they will prescribe statins and metformin although hopefully my weight loss and my BP falling to normal levels will help me persuade them to try to continue on this path.

When statins was raised with me, the rationale given was that because I was diabetic I had increased risk of Cardiovascular Disease. I was told that while my cholesterol was ok for non-diabetics usually for diabetics it is desirable to get it down to 4.0. I was only told to think about it. When I next went in a few months later I had researched it better and was ready to explain why I would not commence statins. As it happened my BG numbers had come down a lot to non-diabetic levels so it was not actually raised.

If you've not already seen it there is a really helpful thread which collates some useful info the subject: https://www.diabetes.co.uk/forum/threads/cholesterol-and-statins.156985/

 

[KeithAnd]

When statins was raised with me, the rationale given was that because I was diabetic I had increased risk of Cardiovascular Disease. I was told that while my cholesterol was ok for non-diabetics usually for diabetics it is desirable to get it down to 4.0. I was only told to think about it. When I next went in a few months later I had researched it better and was ready to explain why I would not commence statins. As it happened my BG numbers had come down a lot to non-diabetic levels so it was not actually raised.

If you've not already seen it there is a really helpful thread which collates some useful info the subject: https://www.diabetes.co.uk/forum/threads/cholesterol-and-statins.156985/

Thank you, I hadn’t seen that so that’s really useful.

 

[KeithAnd]

You will need a plan for after the ND diet, otherwise most of the weight will probably rapidly return. I take 1000 Mg of Metformin a day, and although my hbA1c is still just not diabetic levels, this is for the benefits of the circulatory system.

Thanks @ajbod ,the ND is a 1-2-3 step approach. From what I have read, reintroducing a healthy diet in step 2 and then totally dropping the shakes by step 3 is a challenge too. I'm 'armed' with the Hairy Bikers book, "Eat to Beat Type 2 Diabetes", so planning to follow use that as a guide to what I should be eating and what ingredients I should be avoiding (along with all the other research and reading I've been doing these past few weeks).

@Diablo T2 , I've given that thread a good read and there does seem to be a lot of cons/pros to weigh up with statins. The Roy Taylor book refers to, what he calls, "individual personal risk" a lot. From what I understand, I think that means if the chances of a 'heart attack' now is less than 10% (The NHS 'calculator said this for me, "We estimate that your risk of having a heart attack or stroke within the next 10 years is low less than 10%"), then if I reduce or increase that risk by a further 10%, it's still about 1 in 10. I understand these percentages make a difference when applied to a mass population but to me as an individual, I think the way Roy Taylor describes it, makes sense to me.

 

[ravensmitten]

You will need a plan for after the ND diet, otherwise most of the weight will probably rapidly return.

Yeah, I went a bit crackers after doing it in 2016 - I lost around 4 stone so "just a little xxx won't hurt"

I've put all that and more back on since. BUT that was cause I got cocky with it and thought I could take the mick and lose it again easily if needed.

Do not let this discourage you though, it was personal that I let myself slip, and didn't really make those long term changes.

TBF The guy who did the ND studies does make clear there are phases and you have to get used to making long term habitual/behavioural changes and get used to eating a whole lot less (forever) when you come off the initial phase of the diet. It was handy for me at first as didn't need to work out all the nutrients and just bosh a shake.

If anything I could have heeded the next phase instead of thinking "I was done here" once a decent weight.

Maybe I could have been making sure what nutrients I should be getting WHILE I was doing the shakes too.

Oddly enough now though I weigh more than in 2016 and my hb1ac is a lot less in the pre-diabetic range now, so I reckon various factors could have been present back then, or that I gave myself diabetes resistance training or something

I've started the shakes again and will follow the phased approach this time, not just for diabetes sake, but weight<>health too.

 

[KeithAnd]

Yeah, I went a bit crackers after doing it in 2016 - I lost around 4 stone so "just a little xxx won't hurt"

I've put all that and more back on since. BUT that was cause I got cocky with it and thought I could take the mick and lose it again easily if needed.

Do not let this discourage you though, it was personal that I let myself slip, and didn't really make those long term changes.

TBF The guy who did the ND studies does make clear there are phases and you have to get used to making long term habitual/behavioural changes and get used to eating a whole lot less (forever) when you come off the initial phase of the diet. It was handy for me at first as didn't need to work out all the nutrients and just bosh a shake.

If anything I could have heeded the next phase instead of thinking "I was done here" once a decent weight.

Maybe I could have been making sure what nutrients I should be getting WHILE I was doing the shakes too.

Oddly enough now though I weigh more than in 2016 and my hb1ac is a lot less in the pre-diabetic range now, so I reckon various factors could have been present back then, or that I gave myself diabetes resistance training or something

I've started the shakes again and will follow the phased approach this time, not just for diabetes sake, but weight<>health too.

Sounds like you’re off to a fantastic start and have all that experience behind you now. Go for it and best wishes

 

[ravensmitten]

Thanks, Likewise to you! thought I'd share some of my experience which has more to do with being me than anything else.

I'll learn from those experiences and of course the book wasn't out when I first cobbled together my 'own' version of the ND (from a presentation the Professor did), but have read it and have listened to the audiobook twice since, and seems far more comprehensive than my efforts.

Seems like you are 'armed' with a good attitude and understand the principles more than I did, and seem a bit more sensible than I ever was. :0)

 

[MrsA2]

Oddly enough now though I weigh more than in 2016 and my hb1ac is a lot less in the pre-diabetic range now, so I reckon various factors could have been present back then, or that I gave myself diabetes resistance training or something

@ravensmitten Would you be willing to share your starting and most recent hba1c results, and your weights?
I know there are very many on here who would be really interested in your experiences

 

[ravensmitten]

@ravensmitten Would you be willing to share your starting and most recent hba1c results, and your weights?
I know there are very many on here who would be really interested in your experiences

Hi MrsA2

I apologise in advance to @KeithAnd if this is hijacking the thread, and am more than happy to take it elsewhere or have it moved if needed or they are unhappy with the off topic/cross posting as its become a bit of a 'last few years of my life story' + cathartic essay

I'm quite tall (6".4") and large in general but most of life was lanky and 12.5 stone, I could eat whatever and never seemingly put weight on though I'd never set foot on a scale outside of the doctors in my life, then again I used to eat one meal a day back then and I was pretty strong physically and probably burned 3-4000 cals a day working as a contractor too.

This is quite embarrassing but here goes, looking back at my weight loss tracker

March 2016+ - 2 x Hba1c tests of 50 (a few months apart to make sure although I was never actually given the results until a few days ago when I spoke with a dietician.) = I was at my heaviest 22 Stone and 6lbs

Got a telling off by the practise nurse and chastised for bringing my child to the appt (what else was I going to do, leave them at home!) The gist of her advice to me was here's a pic of the eatwell plate, keep off 'forums' for advice or information, and don't eat a whole packet of biscuits, just have the one. I thought sod that, and went off to do my own thing.

Doing the ND in 2016 I went down to 16 Stone, a loss of 5 Stone 6lbs and stayed that way for the rest of the year even after coming off the shakes.

Figured that this diabetes thing couldn't have been that serious for me anyway as no one had got in touch with me about the results of the Hba1c from the start of the year, in hindsight I could have pressed the matter more myself so I'm not blameless.

I saw a doctor in-between for another thing and I mentioned what about the diabetes thing? as I was concerned and didn't want to go looking up stuff online and he just shrugged and went ah well your results weren't even that bad really, and got a whatever sort of vibe from him. (I Really should have asked a few more things at this point like, what were those results and should I be tested again/further info.)

Went away and got a bit cocky in myself even though I wasn't at the weight I wanted to be I felt loads better, started having more carbs here and there, still felt fine, was taking some meter readings (managed to snag a free one and a few strips by filling in a form) infrequently but couldn't constantly as the strips were too expensive for me, and wasn't having any deranged readings so kinda got complacent.

2017-2019 -over those 2 years I went up 6 stone slowly up to 24 Stone without noticing until I stepped on a scale again in 2019

Was a bit worried maybe I had gotten worse as had other symptoms that weren't seeming to go away, but for obvious reasons between 2019 and 2022 I had kept away from the docs, was waiting until things calmed down a bit.

March 2022 - I saw a doctor about a rotator cuff injury I got in the Feb and he looked back into my records and said "oh! you are diabetic, strange you haven't had any tests since 2016!?!" Went back for a test and thought this time I will make sure I follow up myself.

April 2022 - 26 stone! at the heaviest I got a Hba1c test of 45

To my confusion, I got a boilerplate letter through the door saying I wasn't diabetic any more and that I was pre-diabetic so just look after myself and I'll be fine, and what to watch out for, and I got a well done off the doctor when I saw him again, well done for what? being 4 stone heavier than I started?

Jan 2023 - been watching the carbs again as I feel even if I'm not fully diabetic anymore? they wreak havoc with my system in many ways after a while and have gone down to 25 Stone 6 (which is still WAY too much) in a couple of weeks since cutting out a lot of the nonsense carbs I was eating before - I got to a point in my injury recovery where I felt I'm double my age and double my weight than I was at 21 - so spoke with a chronic condition dietician about support/advice as I'm, fed up feeling like I'm a fat "old" man and she told me the results of both tests the doctor had passed to her and what they meant for me and to follow up with her after sending me some resources. Going to see if I should follow up even though she said usually the doctors won't bother with you if its below 48.

so in summary

2016 - 22 stone 6lbs with a hba1c 50
2022 - 26 stone 0bs with a hba1c 45

No idea how that happened but maybe I put it into remission by doing the ND then am in the process of slowly becoming diabetic again but this time the threshold is higher (if that makes sense and it at all works that way.)

BTW: went a bit in depth because I don't want someone to read into this and go ah well he seems to have got a good reading even after abusing himself and copy me, the weight/health thing is def out of order for me atm and manifesting in various unhelpful and painful ways.

 

[MrsA2]

Thank you, and welcome!
I can't wait for many others to read your story, @chrisjohnh , @Oldvatr @Lamont D among many more

 

[Oldvatr]

@ravensmitten
I cannot reply to your post for some reason, but this is my reply
"
Seems the ND did you a favour and reset the system for you (aka Boot Camp). Like I would imagine it should. You are carb aware now, so I am guessing you are not splurging the carbs as much as you used to. Please correct me if this is a wrong assumption on my part. Are you still doing manual work / contracting?

The weight gain is unfortunate, but does put to rest the argument that diabetes problems are all about weight. I am reminded that T2D is a creepy disiease in that it takes time to build up to the point where it announces itself. Many years in essence. So you may still be in remission, possibly helped by lower carb diet (another assumption about your consumption). You have expresssesd a wish to reduce weight, which I will second. At the moment it is a choice. But there is something in the old wives tale and the original NICE guidelines that adopted the induction treatment as lifestyle changes and weight loss - there are years of experience behind that, even though many find it arrogant advice from the HCP's. That is what they found that worked, as well as the Low Carb Banting diet pre 1900. I am talking pre insulin days here"

 

[ravensmitten]

@ravensmitten
I cannot reply to your post for some reason, but this is my reply
"
Seems the ND did you a favour and reset the system for you (aka Boot Camp). Like I would imagine it should. You are carb aware now, so I am guessing you are not splurging the carbs as much as you used to. Please correct me if this is a wrong assumption on my part. Are you still doing manual work / contracting?

The weight gain is unfortunate, but does put to rest the argument that diabetes problems are all about weight. I am reminded that T2D is a creepy disiease in that it takes time to build up to the point where it announces itself. Many years in essence. So you may still be in remission, possibly helped by lower carb diet (another assumption about your consumption). You have expresssesd a wish to reduce weight, which I will second. At the moment it is a choice. But there is something in the old wives tale and the original NICE guidelines that adopted the induction treatment as lifestyle changes and weight loss - there are years of experience behind that, even though many find it arrogant advice from the HCP's. That is what they found that worked, as well as the Low Carb Banting diet pre 1900. I am talking pre insulin days here"

Thank you for your reply

I WAS splurging on processed carbs between 2017-2022 again knowing full well they were no good for me in excess, often splurging too many at points, If I avoided them weight would seem to fall off without trying. (I think maybe I gave up trying for a bit.) and the reverse, as soon as I start on the eating nonsense and high carb foods, I'll put a stone on in a week as if something is all out of whack. (not exaggerated, I went up a stone in a week once)

Odd thing is I don't get that hungry or crave carbs or even want **** food if I don't start on it, so maybe it's more behavioural; related to habit and addictions which I've beat several of in the past. Maybe I haven't beat them at all and I'm using food as a substitute but I guess we could get into a massive subject here so I'll hold back in this thread.

However, I DID start midway to the end of last year being a bit more mindful of what I was eating again (post 'prediabetes' result.) as I KNOW what I should be eating and am carrying on with that now, as a way of life with some weight loss as a bonus.

But no, I went from very physical work to working in a desk oriented studio role back then, without adjusting for the fact too, a huge step down in activity. I'm guessing this is why you ask?

I think you are right, weight is only one part of a more complex picture, it has to be - though not a bad idea to control it for many reasons, I suffer with some of the symptoms that I won't bore everyone with but I think is my body saying, maybe even crying out "No, this is enough." and I'm listening fully, resolving to get as fit and as well as I can - maybe its my 'mid-life crisis' calling but a less destructive one than some.

As you say I seem to be lucky enough to have the choice right now, for which I'm grateful.

Edit - Ha, the forum starred out a less expletive four-letter word than you'll think that I wrote when reading it.

 

[Oldvatr]

Thank you for your reply

I WAS splurging on processed carbs between 2017-2022 again knowing full well they were no good for me in excess, often splurging too many at points, If I avoided them weight would seem to fall off without trying. (I think maybe I gave up trying for a bit.) and the reverse, as soon as I start on the eating nonsense and high carb foods, I'll put a stone on in a week as if something is all out of whack. (not exaggerated, I went up a stone in a week once)

Odd thing is I don't get that hungry or crave carbs or even want **** food if I don't start on it, so maybe it's more behavioural; related to habit and addictions which I've beat several of in the past. Maybe I haven't beat them at all and I'm using food as a substitute but I guess we could get into a massive subject here so I'll hold back in this thread.

However, I DID start midway to the end of last year being a bit more mindful of what I was eating again (post 'prediabetes' result.) as I KNOW what I should be eating and am carrying on with that now, as a way of life with some weight loss as a bonus.

But no, I went from very physical work to working in a desk oriented studio role back then, without adjusting for the fact too, a huge step down in activity. I'm guessing this is why you ask?

I think you are right, weight is only one part of a more complex picture, it has to be - though not a bad idea to control it for many reasons, I suffer with some of the symptoms that I won't bore everyone with but I think is my body saying, maybe even crying out "No, this is enough." and I'm listening fully, resolving to get as fit and as well as I can - maybe its my 'mid-life crisis' calling but a less destructive one than some.

As you say I seem to be lucky enough to have the choice right now, for which I'm grateful.

Edit - Ha, the forum starred out a less expletive four-letter word than you'll think that I wrote when reading it.

Do you mean the word that also describes a gambling game using dice? I wish they would train their Bots to detect when I mistype Carbs as Crabs.

 

[ravensmitten]

Do you mean the word that also describes a gambling game using dice? I wish they would train their Bots to detect when I mistype Carbs as Crabs.

haha spot on!

 

[Oldvatr]

Thank you for your reply

I WAS splurging on processed carbs between 2017-2022 again knowing full well they were no good for me in excess, often splurging too many at points, If I avoided them weight would seem to fall off without trying. (I think maybe I gave up trying for a bit.) and the reverse, as soon as I start on the eating nonsense and high carb foods, I'll put a stone on in a week as if something is all out of whack. (not exaggerated, I went up a stone in a week once)

Odd thing is I don't get that hungry or crave carbs or even want **** food if I don't start on it, so maybe it's more behavioural; related to habit and addictions which I've beat several of in the past. Maybe I haven't beat them at all and I'm using food as a substitute but I guess we could get into a massive subject here so I'll hold back in this thread.

However, I DID start midway to the end of last year being a bit more mindful of what I was eating again (post 'prediabetes' result.) as I KNOW what I should be eating and am carrying on with that now, as a way of life with some weight loss as a bonus.

But no, I went from very physical work to working in a desk oriented studio role back then, without adjusting for the fact too, a huge step down in activity. I'm guessing this is why you ask?

I think you are right, weight is only one part of a more complex picture, it has to be - though not a bad idea to control it for many reasons, I suffer with some of the symptoms that I won't bore everyone with but I think is my body saying, maybe even crying out "No, this is enough." and I'm listening fully, resolving to get as fit and as well as I can - maybe its my 'mid-life crisis' calling but a less destructive one than some.

As you say I seem to be lucky enough to have the choice right now, for which I'm grateful.

Edit - Ha, the forum starred out a less expletive four-letter word than you'll think that I wrote when reading it.

So, lets see if I read you right. You did ND, but then went back to eating a somewhat unrestricted diet, full of nutritional detritus, and put on oodles of excess tonnage. Yet your HbA1c improved?


If this is the case, then it would seem that ND did reset the system, and simple weight gain and excess eating does not directly induce diabetes malfunction. So it leaves us with another causal parameter, which I postulate is longevity. Poor metabolic function requires long term abuse. This fits the other side of ND, which is the fat in the pancreas. From MRI scans I have seen from others in this field, the fat is ectopic, which means it has been forced into cells that are not designed to act as fat stores( i.e. not like adipose cells) and the conditions that make that happen seem to be related to the NAFLD buildup. That is being thought to be the result of very high carb levels and high calorie diets PLUS the adipocytes being pretty full at the same time (i.e. an overflow condition). Now I have seen hypotheses that a high fructose diet can cause this. So I ask you to think.
Before ND did you eat a lot of fruit, and post ND did you continue to eat lots of fruit? Or have you cut down on fruit this last two years?

 

[ravensmitten]

So, lets see if I read you right. You did ND, but then went back to eating a somewhat unrestricted diet, full of nutritional detritus, and put on oodles of excess tonnage. Yet your HbA1c improved?

Yes, that's correct, the mind boggles.

So it leaves us with another causal parameter, which I postulate is longevity. Poor metabolic function requires long term abuse.

I thought maybe this, that it could have taken a very long time to get where I was at, did a "reset" and then I'm slowly getting back that way but not yet there again, but from what I read about a "personal fat threshold" I'd have imagined, that I'd have crossed that when I re-passed the weight I was at to have had too much fat-in-the-organs when I was first diagnosed - of course I have no scan of those organs to go by only the weight I was, and am now

Maybe its distributed differently. or maybe some error in the more recent testing, or influenced by something else. so many factors.

The rest of what you say is very interesting

So I ask you to think.
Before ND did you eat a lot of fruit, and post ND did you continue to eat lots of fruit? Or have you cut down on fruit this last two years?

I'm not sure what constitutes a lot of fruit, maybe a piece or two a week before, I've eaten more fruit in the last 2 years if anything.

If you switched the word fruit there for fizzy pop it would be true, before 2016 I would drink a fair bit of cola every week and since 2016 I've had about 3 glasses, so there is that.

 

[Oldvatr]

Yes, that's correct, the mind boggles.



I thought maybe this, that it could have taken a very long time to get where I was at, did a "reset" and then I'm slowly getting back that way but not yet there again, but from what I read about a "personal fat threshold" I'd have imagined, that I'd have crossed that when I re-passed the weight I was at to have had too much fat-in-the-organs when I was first diagnosed - of course I have no scan of those organs to go by only the weight I was, and am now

Maybe its distributed differently. or maybe some error in the more recent testing, or influenced by something else. so many factors.

The rest of what you say is very interesting



I'm not sure what constitutes a lot of fruit, maybe a piece or two a week before, I've eaten more fruit in the last 2 years if anything.

If you switched the word fruit there for fizzy pop it would be true, before 2016 I would drink a fair bit of cola every week and since 2016 I've had about 3 glasses, so there is that.

Aha !!!!!! And the winner is........?

High-fructose corn syrup in soda has much more fructose than advertised, study finds

High-fructose corn syrup in soda has much more fructose than advertised, study finds

www.latimes.com

 

[ravensmitten]

My understanding is among the other rot-gut there wasn't any HFCS in UK Coca-Cola

Happy to admit my knowledge may be out of date though.

Reading

“The type of sugar listed on the label is not always consistent with the type of sugar detected,” they wrote. “Considering that the average American drinks 50 gallons of soda and other sweetened beverages each year, it is important that we have more precise information regarding what they contain, including a listing of the fructose content.”

Would be interesting to see that study repeated with UK beverages

 

[KeithAnd]

@ravensmitten

I apologise in advance to @KeithAnd if this is hijacking the thread,

No need at all to apologies, it's all very interesting and in some ways similar to my own story. I was only diagnosed mid December when probably at my 'peak' weight. Not for medical reasons but prior to lockdown I'd lost about 20kg but then steadily regained the weight again, so I now wonder if I was approaching diabetes back then too and just managed to delay it by losing weight, whereas this time, I've gone past my "personal fat threshold".

Seems the ND did you a favour and reset the system for you (aka Boot Camp)

Agree with that @Oldvatr ,it does sound probable

 

[Oldvatr]

My understanding is among the other rot-gut there wasn't any HFCS in UK Coca-Cola

Happy to admit my knowledge may be out of date though.

Reading



Would be interesting to see that study repeated with UK beverages

12 Common Foods With High Fructose Corn Syrup

Want to consume less high fructose corn syrup and other sweeteners but unsure where to start? Here are 12 common foods with high fructose corn syrup.

www.healthline.com

HFCS is not illegal in the UK. ~It is known as FGS and is a permitted additive. It is also called glucose syrup when imported. There is a cap on production of HFCS in the UK, and we do not grow much maize or corn in the UK anyway so along with the sugar tax, the content of most products has moved to using aspartame and other unnatural sweeteners like Alfasame K.

The formulation of coke is a commercial secret, and we do not actually know what the UK product has. Some of it is made from syrup concentrate imported from the USA and the same is the case for most fruit drinks and squashes. My son used to work in a factory producing a very popular orange based beverage for children, and product arrrived in barrels that had to be handled in a hazmat area, If a leak was detected the whole factory had to be evacuated and the special squad had to go in on long airlines and spacesuit to clean it up. This is a kiddies drink. When diluted, the product had to settle in tanks for weeks while the toxic properties dissipated and the product became safe ro drink. I suspect coca cola and pepsi have a similar operation going all around the world. I suspect we do not MAKE these drinks, we just dilute and bottle them.