HOW TO MEASURE VISCERAL FAT?

[Skyrider]

Is it possible to measure visceral fat using consumer level scales?

I see many such products from various brands (e.g. Withings) claiming that they can do this. Yet I am led to believe that this can only be achieved using such methods as MRI scans.

I am interested in monitoring this metric alongside my weight, but don't want to waste my money on such a product if it can't be done.

 

[_Steve_]

As far as I know, the only way to measure precisely would be a scan. But you can estimate the % of visceral fat using a formula based on your waist circumference.

 

[Art Of Flowers]

I have a Withings (Nokia) Body Comp scale. The latest Withings scales are … https://www.withings.com/uk/en/scales

You would probably be interested in the Body Scan or Body Comp models. You can syn the data with your smart phone.

The scales remember your previous readings so you can see you weight gain/loss and it remembers various members of your family too.
My scales charge via USB, so no need to change batteries. They turn on automatically as soon as you strep on them.

 

[_Steve_]

I have a Withings (Nokia) Body Comp scale. The latest Withings scales are … https://www.withings.com/uk/en/scales

You would probably be interested in the Body Scan or Body Comp models. You can syn the data with your smart phone.

The scales remember your previous readings so you can see you weight gain/loss and it remembers various members of your family too.
My scales charge via USB, so no need to change batteries. They turn on automatically as soon as you strep on them.

Wow, if the readings are accurate the Body Scan model of those scales looks a very impressive piece of kit.

 

[Art Of Flowers]

OMRON also make body comp scales e.g BF511 which is cheaper than the Withings.

 

[AndBreathe]

The only accurate way to do it is by scans and detailed interpretation.

That said, I have these scales that I like. I have had them since about 6 months post-diagnosis, so that's over 10 years now, and they're still working perfectly.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Omron-BF511-Family-Composition-Monitor/dp/B0033AGBW0/ref=asc_df_B0033AGBW0/?tag=googshopuk-21&linkCode=df0&hvadid=696385640875&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=11627268334311091514&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=1006800&hvtargid=pla-540760357908&mcid=b6079b72f1d3352a80339ac0b3dec8bc&th=1&gad_source=1

I step on them each morning and do my weight, then periodically (only because I tend to be pretty steady) to do the full scan, including the use of the hand grasps. In order for the full scan to work you input, age, gender, height so that those factors are taken into account when assessing the VF amounts. Those scales measure visceral fat on a numerical scale, from 1- 30, with anything 10 or under being in the decent range.

When trimming up, visceral fat (VF) doesn't reduce in exactly the same way as weight. Aside from all else a scale of 10-30 doesn't map to weight in any way.
As I say, these days I do a full scan periodically, but in reality that's about monthly and I just check that things aren't drifting - VF isn't rising, percentage of muscle staying up etc.

Alternatively, some gyms have sophisticated scales they would charge for, but that's only ever going to be a modest cost.

 

[Skyrider]

As far as I know, the only way to measure precisely would be a scan. But you can estimate the % of visceral fat using a formula based on your waist circumference.

That would be frightening ;-)

 

[Skyrider]

I have a Withings (Nokia) Body Comp scale. The latest Withings scales are … https://www.withings.com/uk/en/scales

You would probably be interested in the Body Scan or Body Comp models. You can syn the data with your smart phone.

The scales remember your previous readings so you can see you weight gain/loss and it remembers various members of your family too.
My scales charge via USB, so no need to change batteries. They turn on automatically as soon as you strep on them.

Yes, I'd been looking at those.

Whilst I'm sure that they are very accurate in some areas, I still wonder about their accuracy with regard to visceral fat, which is a primary area of interest.

Whilst these devices have come a long way, they are not good at everything & the algorithms are often flawed. For example, I have a Withings sleep tracker, which is absolutely hopeless, coming up with results which are not humanly possible. I suppose it is of some use for spotting trends, if not absolute data.

What is bioelectrical impedance analysis?​

"Smart scales and other devices with bioelectrical impedance analysis (BIA) send a weak electrical current through your body to determine your body composition. Basically, fat and muscle have different levels of electrical conductivity. That affects how quickly the current travels from one end of your body to the other, which is then used to indirectly estimate body fat, muscle, water, and bone mass.
BIA devices are more accessible than other methods of measuring body composition, but they’re also less accurate. Hydration levels, exercise, eating, room temperature, quality of product, and electrode placement can all skew results. For example, with smart scales, you’re generally creating a circuit from one foot to the other. That means a typical scale likely only measures your lower body because currents take the fastest route from point A to point B. If you carry most of your body fat in your upper body, you won’t get a reliable reading. Smart scales may also use algorithms that don’t adequately account for your specific body type, ethnicity, or gender.
That’s why you should take smart scale results with a heavy grain of salt. They’re best used to get a ballpark estimate and casually view your trends over time."

 

[Skyrider]

The only accurate way to do it is by scans and detailed interpretation.

That said, I have these scales that I like. I have had them since about 6 months post-diagnosis, so that's over 10 years now, and they're still working perfectly.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Omron-BF511-Family-Composition-Monitor/dp/B0033AGBW0/ref=asc_df_B0033AGBW0/?tag=googshopuk-21&linkCode=df0&hvadid=696385640875&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=11627268334311091514&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=1006800&hvtargid=pla-540760357908&mcid=b6079b72f1d3352a80339ac0b3dec8bc&th=1&gad_source=1

I step on them each morning and do my weight, then periodically (only because I tend to be pretty steady) to do the full scan, including the use of the hand grasps. In order for the full scan to work you input, age, gender, height so that those factors are taken into account when assessing the VF amounts. Those scales measure visceral fat on a numerical scale, from 1- 30, with anything 10 or under being in the decent range.

When trimming up, visceral fat (VF) doesn't reduce in exactly the same way as weight. Aside from all else a scale of 10-30 doesn't map to weight in any way.
As I say, these days I do a full scan periodically, but in reality that's about monthly and I just check that things aren't drifting - VF isn't rising, percentage of muscle staying up etc.

Alternatively, some gyms have sophisticated scales they would charge for, but that's only ever going to be a modest cost.

OMRON also make body comp scales e.g BF511 which is cheaper than the Withings.

Yes, looks useful. Withings also offer the 'Body Smart' scales which are cheaper than the OMRON. This is a much more recent design, with more options. Doesn't say anything about it being clinically validated, though:

A smart, powerful assessment to track your health every day. - Body Smart | Withings

Get precise and repeatable weight measurements, while tracking 8 advanced body composition measurements including fat or muscle mass.

www.withings.com

 

[Skyrider]

The only accurate way to do it is by scans and detailed interpretation.

That said, I have these scales that I like. I have had them since about 6 months post-diagnosis, so that's over 10 years now, and they're still working perfectly.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Omron-BF511-Family-Composition-Monitor/dp/B0033AGBW0/ref=asc_df_B0033AGBW0/?tag=googshopuk-21&linkCode=df0&hvadid=696385640875&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=11627268334311091514&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=1006800&hvtargid=pla-540760357908&mcid=b6079b72f1d3352a80339ac0b3dec8bc&th=1&gad_source=1

I step on them each morning and do my weight, then periodically (only because I tend to be pretty steady) to do the full scan, including the use of the hand grasps. In order for the full scan to work you input, age, gender, height so that those factors are taken into account when assessing the VF amounts. Those scales measure visceral fat on a numerical scale, from 1- 30, with anything 10 or under being in the decent range.

When trimming up, visceral fat (VF) doesn't reduce in exactly the same way as weight. Aside from all else a scale of 10-30 doesn't map to weight in any way.
As I say, these days I do a full scan periodically, but in reality that's about monthly and I just check that things aren't drifting - VF isn't rising, percentage of muscle staying up etc.

Alternatively, some gyms have sophisticated scales they would charge for, but that's only ever going to be a modest cost.

That's what I thought. Anyway, the OMRON looks useful. I understand that the handle design can divide the body into more segments than those which measure 'solely' through the feet (geddit?). This newer model looks interesting, although it still uses the BIA technology:

OMRON VIVA Digital Scale | OMRON UK

OMRON VIVA is a digital scale with Clinically Validated parameters for better understanding your heart's health and being predictive for cardiovascular events.

www.omron-healthcare.co.uk

 

[AndBreathe]

That's what I thought. Anyway, the OMRON looks useful. I understand that the handle design can divide the body into more segments than those which measure 'solely' through the feet (geddit?). This newer model looks interesting, although it still uses the BIA technology:

OMRON VIVA Digital Scale | OMRON UK

OMRON VIVA is a digital scale with Clinically Validated parameters for better understanding your heart's health and being predictive for cardiovascular events.

www.omron-healthcare.co.uk

Yes. When I did my research (albeit 10 years ago), the hand grasps were important for the electrical impedence.

Some of the newer scales have bluetooth connections for easier logging, if you want that.

(You may be able to find some "Open Box" or Warehouse deals on Amazon that might trim the costs a bit, without surrendering any of the warranties etc.)

 

[AloeSvea]

I realise I am probably a peasant, but a peasant who has been tracking my own bio-markers since diagnosis. Mod cons and devices are wonderful! But my belief, for tracking fat on your body (and visceral fat absolutely included - and I say that as a normal weighted person for over 9 years) - is one does not need to go mod con and expensive devices to track fat deposits. I totally understand the joy and interest in it though! And for those who are using these devices and apps and so on - it's terrific that you are sharing this information. Bio marker tracking can be very engaging, and helpful when trying to get better with type two diabetes at least.

I just want to give my closely tracked two cents worth for any other peasants who might be worried about adding up the cost of helpful body-fat tracking. And still want to do it.

What I use and have been using since the get go - plain-old simple old-fashioned tape measure, my fingers method (pinching the skin to feel for fat deposits), and last not least - the mirror! And viewing recent photos I find to be very reliable. Plus clothes - whether or not they are tight fitting, or loose, or unwearable, or so loose need new closer fitting clothes. (the latter has happened but not as common as the tight fitting thing!) These are the methods your great/great/ grandmother would have used (minus the selfies/photos). I have found them to be excellent for my own tracking purposes .

What am I measuring? For me, it's waist and hips. As I was, and am, a belly-fat-first person. At the same time as fat collects majorly on my belly, it also collects on my neck, face, and back and sides, then last - on my legs, but absolutely there last. The prescious organs though - heart, digestive system, liver and pancreas, are first to get the fat deposits, apparently.

If you want to go deeper, but still cheaper - all the biomarker measuring sites online that I have used, have good further measuring methods. My favourite tracking site is health-calc.com. But OECD countries' state health care systems have them too - my own home country's is pretty good - I just prefer the great graphics and useability of health-calc.com.

Hope this is useful for budget constrained and/or fellow peasant-ish type two diabetics, with the body types that can lend themselves to insulin resistance based diabetes, at least.

 

[AndBreathe]

I realise I am probably a peasant, but a peasant who has been tracking my own bio-markers since diagnosis. Mod cons and devices are wonderful! But my belief, for tracking fat on your body (and visceral fat absolutely included - and I say that as a normal weighted person for over 9 years) - is one does not need to go mod con and expensive devices to track fat deposits. I totally understand the joy and interest in it though! And for those who are using these devices and apps and so on - it's terrific that you are sharing this information. Bio marker tracking can be very engaging, and helpful when trying to get better with type two diabetes at least.

I just want to give my closely tracked two cents worth for any other peasants who might be worried about adding up the cost of helpful body-fat tracking. And still want to do it.

What I use and have been using since the get go - plain-old simple old-fashioned tape measure, my fingers method (pinching the skin to feel for fat deposits), and last not least - the mirror! And viewing recent photos I find to be very reliable. Plus clothes - whether or not they are tight fitting, or loose, or unwearable, or so loose need new closer fitting clothes. (the latter has happened but not as common as the tight fitting thing!) These are the methods your great/great/ grandmother would have used (minus the selfies/photos). I have found them to be excellent for my own tracking purposes .

What am I measuring? For me, it's waist and hips. As I was, and am, a belly-fat-first person. At the same time as fat collects majorly on my belly, it also collects on my neck, face, and back and sides, then last - on my legs, but absolutely there last. The prescious organs though - heart, digestive system, liver and pancreas, are first to get the fat deposits, apparently.

If you want to go deeper, but still cheaper - all the biomarker measuring sites online that I have used, have good further measuring methods. My favourite tracking site is health-calc.com. But OECD countries' state health care systems have them too - my own home country's is pretty good - I just prefer the great graphics and useability of health-calc.com.

Hope this is useful for budget constrained and/or fellow peasant-ish type two diabetics, with the body types that can lend themselves to insulin resistance based diabetes, at least.

To be honest, I think whatever methodology we choose to apply for ourselves, the most important things are finding a "decent" (forget perfect, it's not plausible for multiple factors) state and then looking to maintain that steady state, +/- whatever variation margins we allow ourselves, over time.

My own VF is quite low (I measure 3 on the 1-30 scale). I didn't strive to particularly get it there. It just went there as my love handles melted away.

I have zero idea of my starting points, for weight or VF as I didn't weigh myself doe almost 4 months post-diagnosis for reasons I'll spare you. My first weigh in was in a hardware store in St John's, Antigua on a mechanical scale, still in it's poly wrapping. On my next trip home, I bought two sets of scales - one for there and one for home, and the journey began.

 

[Art Of Flowers]

I find the Withings Body Comp Scales very easy to use. Previously, I had a Tanita scale when I used to go to Weight Watchers. The Withings is much easier to use as it remembers your weight from before and starts as soon as you stand on it. I used to look at the %water and %fat measurements, but not any more. I don't need to heart rate measurement as I have an Apple Watch which tells me that.

I lost about 14Kg after I went on a LCHF diet and went from being obese (BMI 33) to just overweight. I did subsequently put on about 6Kg after I stopped weighing myself, so it is important to have a scale which is easy and convenient to use. I now weigh myself a few times a week, and have lost about 4Kg since the start of May.

 

[Skyrider]

I realise I am probably a peasant, but a peasant who has been tracking my own bio-markers since diagnosis. Mod cons and devices are wonderful! But my belief, for tracking fat on your body (and visceral fat absolutely included - and I say that as a normal weighted person for over 9 years) - is one does not need to go mod con and expensive devices to track fat deposits. I totally understand the joy and interest in it though! And for those who are using these devices and apps and so on - it's terrific that you are sharing this information. Bio marker tracking can be very engaging, and helpful when trying to get better with type two diabetes at least.

I just want to give my closely tracked two cents worth for any other peasants who might be worried about adding up the cost of helpful body-fat tracking. And still want to do it.

What I use and have been using since the get go - plain-old simple old-fashioned tape measure, my fingers method (pinching the skin to feel for fat deposits), and last not least - the mirror! And viewing recent photos I find to be very reliable. Plus clothes - whether or not they are tight fitting, or loose, or unwearable, or so loose need new closer fitting clothes. (the latter has happened but not as common as the tight fitting thing!) These are the methods your great/great/ grandmother would have used (minus the selfies/photos). I have found them to be excellent for my own tracking purposes .

What am I measuring? For me, it's waist and hips. As I was, and am, a belly-fat-first person. At the same time as fat collects majorly on my belly, it also collects on my neck, face, and back and sides, then last - on my legs, but absolutely there last. The prescious organs though - heart, digestive system, liver and pancreas, are first to get the fat deposits, apparently.

If you want to go deeper, but still cheaper - all the biomarker measuring sites online that I have used, have good further measuring methods. My favourite tracking site is health-calc.com. But OECD countries' state health care systems have them too - my own home country's is pretty good - I just prefer the great graphics and useability of health-calc.com.

Hope this is useful for budget constrained and/or fellow peasant-ish type two diabetics, with the body types that can lend themselves to insulin resistance based diabetes, at least.

Yes, sometimes the old ways are the best! That's an informative site, thank you for mentioning it.

I find that all this tracking can be a bit of a double-edged sword: on the one hand, data & trends can be helpful, but on the other hand one can get overfocussed on the data & it can be anxiety inducing, especially if things are not going well.

Maybe I'll stick to the basics...

 

[Skyrider]

To be honest, I think whatever methodology we choose to apply for ourselves, the most important things are finding a "decent" (forget perfect, it's not plausible for multiple factors) state and then looking to maintain that steady state, +/- whatever variation margins we allow ourselves, over time.

My own VF is quite low (I measure 3 on the 1-30 scale). I didn't strive to particularly get it there. It just went there as my love handles melted away.

I have zero idea of my starting points, for weight or VF as I didn't weigh myself doe almost 4 months post-diagnosis for reasons I'll spare you. My first weigh in was in a hardware store in St John's, Antigua on a mechanical scale, still in it's poly wrapping. On my next trip home, I bought two sets of scales - one for there and one for home, and the journey began.

Agreed, whatever works for you.

I have no idea of my starting points, either. But it has occurred to me that I would like to know how things are going with a bit more detail, without getting too hung up on the data.

Since beginning this journey around 6 weeks ago, my weight has dropped by around 4kg, with another 3kg to go to my 'ideal' weight at this point. I have taken in my belt by one notch, about 1".

I'm looking to replace my ageing bathroom scales with something more recent (more accurate?), hence considering the body comp options.

 

[sgm14]

I've been using a Withings Body scale for 12 years and my model tells me weight, BMI and body fat.

My view is that I don't really care how accurate it is, because it is has been good enough for me. I didn't need a scale to tell me I was underweight (when it was reporting 3% Body Fat) and I don't need it to tell me that is no longer the case.

But the reason I liked the scale is that my only alternative is to use the mirror or tape-measure and then it would take months before I would be confident that my weight was going in the correct direction.

 

[Skyrider]

Regarding accuracy, this may be of interest:

Accuracy of Smart Scales on Weight and Body Composition: Observational Study

Smart scales are increasingly used at home by patients to monitor their body weight and body composition, but scale accuracy has not often been documented.The goal of the research was to determine the accuracy of 3 commercially available smart scales ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov