T2 or NAFLD? ...or, a funny thing happened on the way to the surgery

Chris24Main

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Quick update - just come back from my appointment to discuss health and wellness based on diet and lifestyle.

To recap - was offered this by the NHS app, don't think I need to learn anything but was curious and went with an open mind.

I have to say; if this was a general indication of the level of knowledge and application that the education and training regime is putting out these days - then I'm incredibly encouraged for the future health of the nation.

I cannot stress enough, how impressed I was at the level of knowledge, history, the flexibility of thinking, the practicality of advice... just spot on.

Partly my enthusiasm has to come from not having to fight over any of the things I am doing - he agreed with pretty much everything, and he himself does regular 36 hour fasts, and is a big fan of autophagy and we had clearly read many of the same books.

This was a general thing - not diabetes specific, so in the long term he was keen for a little more flexibility in my diet (to nurture gut biome) than the near-carnivore plus diary regime I currently follow, but didn't have the slightest problem in me doing that plus irregular fasting for reversing insulin resistance - just really suggesting more variety would be good for a whole life (which I agree with, it's hard to be extreme for ever).

So - I was significantly surprised, and as I say, thoroughly encouraged, as I finished "if this is what everyone else is being advised, you have no idea how pleased I am about that"

I feel totally energised and very glad that I went.
 

MrsA2

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Quick update - just come back from my appointment to discuss health and wellness based on diet and lifestyle.

To recap - was offered this by the NHS app, don't think I need to learn anything but was curious and went with an open mind.

I have to say; if this was a general indication of the level of knowledge and application that the education and training regime is putting out these days - then I'm incredibly encouraged for the future health of the nation.

I cannot stress enough, how impressed I was at the level of knowledge, history, the flexibility of thinking, the practicality of advice... just spot on.

Partly my enthusiasm has to come from not having to fight over any of the things I am doing - he agreed with pretty much everything, and he himself does regular 36 hour fasts, and is a big fan of autophagy and we had clearly read many of the same books.

This was a general thing - not diabetes specific, so in the long term he was keen for a little more flexibility in my diet (to nurture gut biome) than the near-carnivore plus diary regime I currently follow, but didn't have the slightest problem in me doing that plus irregular fasting for reversing insulin resistance - just really suggesting more variety would be good for a whole life (which I agree with, it's hard to be extreme for ever).

So - I was significantly surprised, and as I say, thoroughly encouraged, as I finished "if this is what everyone else is being advised, you have no idea how pleased I am about that"

I feel totally energised and very glad that I went.
Wow, you were really lucky in the post code lottery. Mine was much more "I'm just here to ask the questions and record the results, anything else ask the doctor".
Where do I need to move to?
 

Chris24Main

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@MrsA2 - so I totally won the post code lottery by settling in the north of God's own country, Yorkshire, - so the rest of you are already at a massive disadvantage from the get-go - good point <grin>
 
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Chris24Main

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Just finished the 14 days of the Libre sensor, and thought it may be ...instructive... to share the daily pattern result:
This is the average pattern over the entire time, not a single trace, so the black line is the average and the blue lines are effectively error bars.
1734951284075.png


Now - let me give a couple of caveats before I discuss what I think this tells me.

First - I recognise the struggle to control blood glucose levels, and this is not an attempt to minimise anyone else's experience - I spent a year of twisting in the wind, and just not having a clue what was going on. I see similar posts every day "why is this happenening, why did X or Y not happen?" - and I get it.
Secondly - although I'm happy with this result, this is not about "look how well I've done" - it's really about - does this let us learn anything?

So - with that said - this has been a pretty normal two week period, with one 36 hour fast, and what I would call normal eating - normal for me being to eat in a way that keeps insulin low.

Every - and I really mean every - time that my blood glucose level raised over this period, it was in response to something I did, rather than something I ate. More and more I'm coming to the conclusion that this is really how things should be - that the liver is most importantly an organ for filtering toxins out of our body and for building complicated things - and we make it spend too much time digesting food-like stuff, when we have a perfectly good set of other organs for doing that for real food.

if we allow the liver to do what it's good at, it's actually capable of doing an amazing job also of keeping blood glucose (as a means of quickly available fuel to accellerate activity) extremely well controlled - if - (and this is the real kicker) the rest of our metabolism is not geared only around glucose.

So, that's really the point - this graph is really more about fat adaptation, than it is about glucose control. After about a year of eating in order to keep insulin low, background circulating insulin is low, and I'm quite sensitive to it, I have reasonably stable levels of circulating ketones, and my weight is rock solid, regardless of eating less or more - I'm really not watching what I eat in terms of calories - only eating fat and protien together till I'm full. I had 2 eggs, cheese, two sausages, three rashers of bacon and some brazil nuts with 85% chocolate for breakfast today - and feel great. My weight has not varied by more than a kilo since about february.

Keeping insulin low has allowed my body to regulate energy around fat - I can store it, mobilise it and burn it according to need, and any overflow is converted to ketones. Only fine tuning is done by the liver - making new glucose when needed, and storing an amount as glycogen when not.

I can't say any of that really as fact - it just the best way of making sense of all the data I've collected over the last months - but it could be some form of confirmation bias - it's what I expected to happen, and now it seems to be what is happening - but it may be that something else entirely different is going on and I'm just mis-interpreting.

But - in summary - for me, the more you think about food as being something you enjoy, which supports metabolism, the better off you are in the long term, and that too often we think the wrong way round - how do I cope with the immediate effect of this food I've just eaten.
 

Chris24Main

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Given that it's this odd period between Christmas and New Year, and we have an unusual amount of time, I wanted to get to the bottom of something that's been troubling me for a while - the Newcastle diet.

More specifically, why it is that the research underpinning this (and there is some resultant debate, even on this thread) still seems to point to something fundamental about fat intake and how it relates to the progression of T2DM. Is there a way of fitting this square peg in the round hole that is insulin resistance - more specifically, you can read some of the background on the Newcastle web page, and come away having never read the phrase "insulin resistance" - so why is this, and is there any common ground - the mechanism seems to be totally different...

So - firstly, let me say that I'm in no way "doubting" the clinical results that have been achieved by following the Newcastle meal replacement program. I don't personally think it's as effective as cutting carbs and intermittent fasting, but there is bound to be some confirmation bias on my part - I've never done the Newcastle thing, but I did have really great success following my own plan around fasting and lowering insulin through cutting carbs. No one plan is perfect for everyone, and if you understand the key principle of energy management - revolving around elevated insulin and sufficient energy - then reducing energy significantly should have similar effects - which is essentially what the treatment plan is. I'd love to see some comparison research between the two routes, but that doesn't exist. My personal opinion is that switching to a low carb eating regime, then reducing the frequency of fasting will be easier to maintain permanently than a 12-week crash diet followed by ... something ... (the "what to do following the 12 weeks is a little vague, but I assume that there is some support, though the phrase "you can go back to eating the things you like" does worry me).

Anyway - there are pros and cons, and there are some people that will gravitate to a 12-week plan, and have some success - fine. The more people helped the better.

But - what about the underlying mechanisms... why the focus on fat and the relative absence of focus on insulin resistance...?
So - there are bound to be many reasons for this, and I'm not party to all the facts - so some of this is clearly my opinion, but the more I learn, the more overlap I see - and it's kind of about the title of this thread - Fatty Liver.

From the background info: taken directly from the website (and understanding that this research was all done around 2008 ish..
"We now know that type 2 diabetes is caused by excess fat inside liver and pancreas"

Well - that's describing non-alcoholic fatty liver - so the theory is that NAFLD is a direct cause of T2DM -
Most of the newer research that focuses on Insulin resistance is just a little later - 2010 and onward, with the significant realisation that type 2 is characterised by Too much insulin - not too little- hyperinsulinemia leading to insulin resistance, leading to greater need of insulin - and so on. Could it be that the focus of the research just shifted to insulin, and that the Newcastle research which was so revolutionary in 2008 just seems behind now?

Additionally, the research in Newcastle seems to me to be really focusing on the point in the curve below (taken from their own published paper) where the fasting glucose jumps up - we would call that the point of beta-cell failure, where the pancreas can no longer keep up with the demand for increased insulin, so the insulin level drops, and blood glucose shoots up, leading to the classically diagnosable HbA1c reading we all know.

1735559812425.png


Again - no real controversy there, but if all the research you were doing was prior to the work on insulin resistance, you would be focused on - what is causing the problem in the pancreas?

Fair enough.

Also - from published paper in the introduction section:
"What is the basic nature of Type 2 diabetes? What causes it? It is associated with obesity, and both insulin resistance and a β cell defect are involved."

So - there is no attempt to discount the effect of insulin resistance here either - it looks like there should be significant overlap.

There then follows quite a complicated passage that goes into specific types of fat and talks about how they end up in the area around the liver and pancreas, and sets this out as "the twin cycle hypothesis":

Once again copy and pasting (I tend to avoid doing this, but I need to in this case - all from the Banting Memorial Lecture 2012.
"The twin cycle hypothesis postulates that chronic calorie excess leads to accumulation of liver fat with eventual spill over into the pancreas. These self-reinforcing cycles between liver and pancreas eventually cause metabolic inhibition of insulin secretion after meals and onset of hyperglycaemia."

So - if you are looking at the world through the lens of "calories are bad" and "failure of the pancreas" is the cause of T2DM - this sounds like it makes sense.

However - we also know that it isn't just about calories, and that the types of food we eat matter in the way that the body has to deal with them, and the hormonal response. Fat doesn't just "spill over" - indeed if fat could somehow "spill" - we would just die - we have incredibly complicated mechanisms for handling and transporting fat around the body - waving your hands and talking about "spilling over" - just doesn't cut it.

So - back to basics - fat digested in the intestine is packaged up into Chylomicrons and transported to the liver - I'll use a diagram to aviod explaining the entire thing.
1735561223872.png


The short version is that you can see two distinct routes - fat via Chylomicrons from the Gut, and then the Liver packaging up triglycerides (the actual "fat" bit) into VLDL which becomes LDL.

At the same time, excess carbs are ported straight into the liver via the hepatic artery, where the liver attempts to convert and store as glycogen or converts to fat, also packaging the resulting triglycerides into VLDL.

At the same time, any fructose or alcohol must be dealt with first by being metabolised by the liver into fat, and stored in the liver.

So - you may get the idea from all of this that I'm arguing against the Newcastle twin cycle hypothesis - but not really - I'm just saying that it's an over-simplification based on the prevailing narrative that fat is bad. When they talk about "a chronic calorie excess" - it's just the same as saying that we eat in a way that presents the liver with too much to do, and triggering the release of too much insulin, which causes all of the fat it deals with to have to be stored.

In a different eating regime, the person will simply find that they cannot keep eating (imagine now a plate of fatty meat, can you imagine carrying on eating beyond the point that you feel full?) - and any "calorie excess" will be turned into ketones which will be peed and breathed out - none of that happens in a high-insulin state, where everything must be converted to fat and stored.

That concept of fat "spilling over" into the pancreas, is more accurately a state of hypertrophy in the surrounding adipose tissue - or fat storage cells swelling up to accommodate the fat that the insulin is driving into them - directly causing insulin resistance, which directly drives everything else.

Of course, that is also an over-simplification, there are many, many direct causes of insulin resistance, the result of which is the viscous cycle of increased demand for insulin, and increased insulin resistance - but simply, it's a better explanation than the "excess calories causing fat to spill over" - that may have seemed viable in 2008.

All of which to say - there really isn't anything directly controversial in the Newcastle research, except that it has somewhat been superseded with better research that better explains how fat builds up in the liver - because of insulin, not simply because of excess calories.

With that - you may be more prone to think about treatment focused on reducing insulin, not reducing calories. However - reducing calories (substantially) will also work, and may be a better route for some.
 
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Chris24Main

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Just an observation from a New Year meal out -

We had gone to a gastro-pub, and I was struggling to have anything that didn't come with a bunch of starch - I was going to go for a Sea Bass, but figured out that the "risotto" was likely to feature large, and that I would be presented with a plate of rice, and that I was going to struggle. So, I plumbed for the Roast Cod, which came with a Squid and Chick Pea thing - now, I love me a Chick Pea, so that should be fine, even if I haven't touched one all year (I thought).

So, it was a little bit of a surprise, even if it should have been obvious, that I had something of a reaction to the carbs from the starch in the pulses - I felt a sensation in my gut that I just haven't felt for a while - a tension and slightly sickly feeling - and this is something that I'm finding over and over if I have any supposedly low GI carbs - that the sensation in my digestion is just different. Different rather than bad - we can only feel difference in such things after all, but it doesn't feel good.

My sense is that because when I'm eating mainly fat and protein, it travels through the length of my digestive system, so even when I'm eating it, I don't feel anything in the "gut-liver transport" simply because there is precious little that can go that way. My liver, then, is something like an observer of the meal, rather than the active partner, (which it is when you eat a lot of carbs).
I've felt many times that I can feel full, in the sense that I have no desire to have another mouthful, while at the same time, not feeling in any way "stuffed". It's totally the other way around with a carb-heavy meal, and the proof of this is that we're (or at least I was) told to wait for fifteen minutes or so before having seconds - (the rationale being that - that's the time it takes to feel full, so you need to wait that long to know if you have space or not).

Well, it isn't - if you are eating mainly meat, you feel an almost real-time feedback - that first mouthful is super tasty, but by the time you come to the end of a steak, that last mouthful is totally different, and you chew it, swallow it, and you're done. An even more beautifully prepared steak could be placed in front of you, and the very idea of cutting into it would just be unthinkable.

Nothing feels "stretched" but you will continue to feel satisfied for hours.

A plate of fries, however, each one will taste exactly the same, regardless of the size of the plate. You can just keep eating them - every fry tasting just as delicious as the last. No sense whatever of your "personal need" for fries becoming sated, just each fry tasting great. At some point, you may feel your liver becoming engaged, but you'll be used to this, and it won't feel odd in the least - you can keep eating. At some point beyond that, you may feel your stomach starting to stretch, and generally feeling uncomfortable - this is what we associate with "feeling full" and so you may recognise that and stop. You may not, those fries are delicious after all.

At some point, of course, you will finish, and the over-stretched uncomfortable feeling passes, and pretty soon you're hungry again (I'm skipping over any effect on blood sugars of course).

No right or wrong here, I'm only commenting on my own observations after eating some pulses, having steered clear of anything with sugar, starch or seed oil in it for the bulk of the year - so I'm super sensitive to any sensation in my digestive system that's different to what I've become used to.

On the other hand, when I learned about the importance of good sleep about 5 years ago, I was also totally shocked about the changes in how I felt, and what I'd always felt was "normal" was in fact - for me anyway - just putting up with feeling terrible. I think there are some parallels.
 
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Chris24Main

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@Vectian - if you're inclined to do so (you may feel that this T2 territory is too far off-track for you, but this thread is more of a "nerds chatting after class" situation)

It isn't that the same forum rules don't apply - they do - but anyone newly diagnosed is going to have to wade through 28 pages of technical chat before getting to this, so should not be shocking or scary - it's as good a filter as any, frankly if anyone can wade through 28 pages of this, I'm impressed.

- I'd be extremely keen to share any learning you've uncovered about regeneration or slowing degeneration of β-cell function. I don't want to re-hash the discussion about the differences between LADA and T2 - but there is fairly wide disagreement about the nature of these humble cells in the islets of Langerhans - whether they can recover, repair or regrow, and what makes them different to α cells, when the two seems to be mixed up together - and I think you mentioned some research that pointed at converting α to β ?
 

Chris24Main

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@Melgar - I'm reading a book by Dave Asprey - the founder of BulletProof coffee - he's pretty interesting as a character, and my interest in all things longevity pulled me to him, though I'm not yet sure how aligned I am to any of his thinking - these bio-hackers are on a slightly different plane, but there is definitely something to learn from digging into different points of view.

Anyway - I bring him up, because BulletProof coffee really stems from his experience in the Himalayas with Yak butter in coffee, of all things. Me, I'm an unrepentant coffee snob, so the idea of putting anything in my coffee - Yak or no - is pretty much anathema.

However - it did spur a thought - the idea with the Bulletproof is that it's a mix of this and medium chain fatty acids - and it got me thinking - I'm pretty happy that there is plenty enough fat on my plate, if anything I've probably gone too far for the long term, but these things do exist as a supplement in pill form, and that the key thing about them is that they can be absorbed directly into the liver; literally the "medium chain" thing means that they are small enough not to need breaking down by bile in the small intestine (for what it's worth, this is why the brain cannot use fat for fuel, the fatty acid chains are simply too big to pass through the blood-brain barrier) - and it just made me think - "I wonder if that might be a solution for people that cannot tolerate fats?" -

It seems possible that any kind of tolerance issue might be bypassed in this way - is it something you've ever considered? I have to say that I'm not pushing it, merely interested - I've never tried them myself.
 

Melgar

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I will check it out @Chris24Main thanks :) So this fat issue for me has gradually got worse. I’ve been iffy with fats for a while now, but it has progressed to even olive oil. I was able to tolerate olive oil well until I had that last bout of gall/pancreas pain. That pain is like no other ! The Dr was confident that my gall bladder was inflamed and I’m pretty sure my pancreas was too. It did not want to miss out on the action. I’m wondering what causes that.

I will look into yak butter. I am adventuress with my food, so I’ll try and find some. We are blessed with fancy food stores here with unusual products so I’m optimistic. What’s happened to me now, whether it’s real or simply psychological, is I can’t even look at anything with fats in without feeling repulsed. My beloved cheeses, I love cheese. I miss that. And annoyingly I used all my strips up when I had that bout of high blood sugars a few weeks back so I had to buy some. Now it’s the New Year I’ll start getting cgm’s again. i had two health insurances, I’ve booted one of them so I can buy cgms instead. Most of my insurance goes on diabetic stuff anyways.

I feel I have a ‘moody’ pancreas. If it is an enzyme problem then at least I will know and deal with it. I might have to take pills. I’m suspicious of pill supplements. As an aside I am also lactose intolerant. Someone once recommended taking lactase supplements. Well I tried it, within moments I was projectile vomiting. I couldn’t quite believe it, I thought it was supposed to help. I took another one the following day , just to be sure. Same thing. I digress.

I’m keen to get this figured out. When zi was able to tolerate olive oil I didn’t feel so concerned, but now I can’t have olive oil where do I get my fats from? And of course I’m on these statins now. Goodness knows how low my Triglycerides will be , they are very low now. Anyways we shall see. Thanks for your thoughts on fats @Chris24Main . I’ve rambled on!
 

Chris24Main

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I may have mentioned that my wife had Gall stone issues - about 5 years or so ago now, so believe me that I would never under-play the effect and the pain involved. She very nearly died. All fine since having the gall bladder removed, but of course that literally reduces her ability to break down and absorb fat, and it was only much more recently that I understood that Gall stones are actually the build-up of bile which isn't being regularly flushed out in response to fat - we were all "how can this be a problem with bile build up?", she - neither of us - ate barely any fat.

I consider myself to be going through a personal re-education as far as cooking and eating fat goes. I get the phycological response, because I could barely look at fat of any kind without physically gagging. Let alone think about putting it in my mouth. I would trim off the fat from Parma Ham. I would trim down a steak to the point that it was virtually fat-free mince, before I was happy - to the point that I just stopped buying steak. Lamb was right out.

But - I'm finding that my taste can change, and though I still struggle with the idea of it, the presence of it in my mouth no longer triggers the same reaction, and I can definitely positively enjoy mouthfuls of food that even a year ago would have spoiled the entire meal. I am not saying that this has been an easy journey though.

Anyway - having mentioned MCT to you, I realised that it may also apply to my wife, and mentioned it to her, if I got some; would she be interested in trying? - "well, you know I'm still on the fence about what you're doing for the long term..."

So, let's just say that we managed not to argue about it... and that's actually a sign of progress.
 

Chris24Main

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Consider this update a little fringe, even for me.
At the start of my recovery journey, just over a year ago - one of the steps I took was to buy an infra-red sauna blanket. I've always enjoyed saunas, and the idea of having one in my house has always been something of a dream... unobtainable, but a dream still. Anyway, Google was starting to pester me with one of these new breeds of ... basically, a heated sleeping bag. The idea of it sounded bizarre, why would I want to sweat all over a plastic sheet on top of my bed, even if there seemed to be some evidence that it was good for sports recovery?

But - Google advertising works in mysterious ways, and soon enough, there was a special offer, which came with a kind of cotton towelling inner - ok - so that means that you don't sweat all over anything, and they recommend wearing underclothes, so you can wash them.. no mess, no fuss, and the deal was pretty good.

It also meant (this was my rationalisation) that on fasting days, if I was feeling unbearably hungry, I could take my mind off it in this "sauna".

So - a year since.
I'm a total convert - these things are just awesome, you get all the effect of being in a sauna (I actually cried the first time, it felt so good, I mean, genuinely) while at the same time, your entire head is out, so you don't feel uncomfortably hot in the face - it's the best of both worlds. But - I used it as a luxury - and more often than not as something to do while on fasting days when I was usually cooking.

Then, this morning - I discover HSPs - Heat Shock Proteins.
These are ...well, lots of things - difficult to fully describe without getting very deep in the weeds, but they are basically the worker bees of your inter-cellular damage response team. This applies to cells, and the mitochondria inside the cells.
At a simple level, the heat from the sauna triggers (mumble mumble, complicated stuff involving transcription factors and chromosomal puffing) these HSPs, which then act as chaperones for the junk in the cells - literally breaking down the free-radicals (or ROS) directly as well as a bunch of other things, helping out with proper folding of other proteins - it's like a way of cloning more staff in a hotel...

More than that - an infra-red sauna (like these blankets) is a form of red light therapy, which directly reduces inflammation, and even insulin resistance and blood glucose control.
per the institute of BioPhotonics.

you may not, (and I didn't) see it as being the same thing, because a heat-blanket doesn't give off any visible light, but it is heating you using light - or at least energy just beyond the part of light that we can see - but it affects your mitochondria just the same.

I will definitely be bringing this up in my next diabetes review; I just hadn't thought that it was a direct, positive thing, but the science is pretty solid.
 

Chris24Main

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I will look into yak butter.
Before you put too much energy into chasing after Yaks - I don't think that BulletProof uses Yak butter per se, it was just that the founder had a positive experience in Nepal, where this was the custom. There are a few recipes online for homemade bulletproof coffee - think Ghee, and Coconut oil, teaspoon of each, blended in a cup of coffee - I'm kind of working up to trying it, or something like. I'd love to know if anyone has any experience; I just like a good coffee too much to want to put anything into it.
 

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Before you put too much energy into chasing after Yaks - I don't think that BulletProof uses Yak butter per se, it was just that the founder had a positive experience in Nepal, where this was the custom. There are a few recipes online for homemade bulletproof coffee - think Ghee, and Coconut oil, teaspoon of each, blended in a cup of coffee - I'm kind of working up to trying it, or something like. I'd love to know if anyone has any experience; I just like a good coffee too much to want to put anything into it.
Oh @Chris24Main I can tell you that I would feel quite sick after eating Ghee or coconut oil! Same with sesame oil. If I eat a small slice of Halva (made from sesame seeds. I’m sure you know that) I feel nauseous. Something is not working right whether it’s a bile problem or an enzyme problem or the bile problem makes it an enzyme problem. I guess they will be doing tests. But I‘m still producing low levels of ketones, probably so because I’m losing weight.
 

Chris24Main

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(just in the chance that anyone else is reading this - it is a public forum after all, so you should understand that this is me being concerned, not just poking at an interesting question - it looks the same in text, so I need to be painfully obvious)

@Melgar - is that what you think is going on? you are converting fat to ketones (has to be, because you can't make ketones from anything else) from storage and this is causing weight loss?

Must be a concern.

Ketone production is also homeostatically controlled - would exogenous ketones help? Maybe even short term to conserve fat until you can figure out a way of taking some in.

I figured Ghee would be no use; in fact that was why I was suggesting MCT - because mentally, taking a supplement pill might be different to trying to eat something you're not comfortable with..
 

Melgar

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@Chris24Main I mentioned earlier the fact I once took a supplement for my lactose intolerance, thinking I wasn’t producing enough of the enzyme lactase, that ended badly. But if it is some form of pancreatic insufficiency , I pulled that from nowhere as really I don’t know, then they may supplement my digestive enzymes. I may not be able to absorb all the nutrients from food due to lack of the appropriate enzymes. Who knows I’m both concerned as fats are vital , but intellectually fascinated.

ed to tag @Chris24Main
 

Chris24Main

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Not ignoring the last on enzymes - still pondering that - but had a massive insight and thought I should share.

I've been learning about mitochondria, and as these things happen, now that I know a little, all sorts of inputs have come in from books and interviews "you do know that mitochondria evolved from bacteria?" - this was one of the BIG questions for most of my life, like "what is flame, really?" - and now I seem to be surrounded by the obvious answer, yet I'd barely ever heard the word, and definitely could not have described anything about how a mitochondrion worked until maybe six months ago.

Anyway - there was this thing about how mitochondria can convert some frequencies of light into energy that it can use and heat, and I thought, "yeah, makes sense if you think about them really being bacteria that have been evolving for billions of years - makes sense that they have some capability - after all, the energy from the sun would have been the only energy source for billions of years, even discounting the evolution of chlorophyl" -

- but then, brown fat cells are a whole other thing - they make heat directly - and it occurred to me that there ought to be some difference in the mitochondria of "cold blooded" animals - or if not, then why can some animals heat themselves and some cannot, if we all evolved from the same single cell organisms that first captured a proto-mitochondrion.

So - started digging, and sure enough, mammalian mitochondria in brown fat de-couple - now, I'd heard this before and had no idea what it meant - but it's pretty simple - there is a protein involved, but essentially the "engine" inside the mitochondria - the complex 4 proton pump - the thing that actually spins like an electric motor - that is decoupled like you would de-couple a car engine by pushing in the clutch - decoupling the engine from the wheels - so that when you rev the engine; it only gets hotter - you don't go anywhere... the principle is exactly the same.. (the process is then controlled mainly by thyroid hormone, which itself is under control from ultimately the hypothalamus - so you have a thermostat and a central heating system in your body).

So - mammals do this - BUT - birds evolved from the cold blooded lizards, and they evolved a totally different way of doing the same thing - without specifically adapted fat storage cells - and even cooler than that, insects have another way again, by concentrating mitochondria around a literal hot-spot on their thorax where the most amount of oxygen can get in.

Lizards got left behind with mitochondria that can use oxygen, but only for energy, not heat..

How amazing is that...
 
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Melgar

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Totally amazing @Chris24Main . Really quite remarkable. Then again, I have been totally blown away in general by the body and how it works, whilst trying to understand this blood sugar /fats malarkey.
I did know about the hypothalamus and the hot and cold thing. My search engine history is full of it as I have been looking into why I still get hot and cold flashes. I dare not get too involved in the history of our existence else I may end up lost down the rabbit hole, never to return.

Interesting that you mention the thyroid again. My Dr keeps testing me for thyroid issues, like all of a sudden my thyroid will give up its secrets and we will all have an Ah ha moment.
I have an appointment with my Dr this coming Monday so I’m guessing I will have more tests. She has already said I have/had Cholecystitis. I mean why would one’s gall bladder become inflamed, if not gall stones. According to my ultra sound there are no gall stones present. So we shall see.
 

Antje77

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I have an appointment with my Dr this coming Monday so I’m guessing I will have more tests.
I'd push more investigation into EPI, pancreatitis, and possible T3C if I were you.
 
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Outlier

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as I have been looking into why I still get hot and cold flashes. I dare not get too involved in the history of our existence else I may end up lost
Look away, menfolk!

Not wanting to derail this fascinating thread, but I'd be very interested in your findings as I have this severely (think 20+ per 24 hours) since starting the menopause long ago, despite being rather old now. Sure it's not life-threatening, but in terms of quality of life it is a real misery.
 
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Melgar

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Look away, menfolk!

Not wanting to derail this fascinating thread, but I'd be very interested in your findings as I have this severely (think 20+ per 24 hours) since starting the menopause long ago, despite being rather old now. Sure it's not life-threatening, but in terms of quality of life it is a real misery.
Ha, totally agree @Outlier ! There is no good news either, I’ve read women still getting hot and cold flashes well into their 80’s. Although I think an iffy Thyroid can contribute to hot flashes or cold flashes. Our thyroid function deteriorates with age. So both an underactive and an overactive thyroid can cause some issues including flashes, even in older people. Cognitive issues and depression too. Mine come with a racing heart.

https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/underactive-thyroid-hypothyroidism/

https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/overactive-thyroid-hyperthyroidism/