Another daily mail article on LC diet

[zand]

Oh please lets not get into fights about pictures of fat pets! Don't we have enough to worry about fighting this disease?

 

[phoenix]

@jack412
Re Fructose and fat mice.
They are very striking pictures but those mice were taking in 60% of energy from fructose. Have you or anyone else on here really had that much fructose in your diet?
Fructose in the form of HFGS isn't a large part of the European diet as there is a quota on it's production.
In the US,fructose is more common but even there , in those people with the highest intake it forms less than 20% of the energy intake so not a very good comparison . Besides do you actually have the same metabolism as a rat?
http://evolvinghealthscience.blogspot.co.uk/2012/05/fate-of-fructose-interview-with-dr-john.html

I could find many pictures of lab animals that have been made fat on an 60% fat diet. It's a standard method of inducing obese rats ;heres how to do it (link to google cache
And they will also get fat on an ad lib 'Cafeteria' diet made up of typical high fat/sugar/salt processed foods because they will indeed eat more of it.

I prefer exercised mouse and sedentary mouse both on normal chow .

 

[jack412]

I guess you didn't watch the video then, doesn't matter..cheers
I think the purpose of lab tests is to have definitive results, but I would be very impressed if you could show me someone fat on a 60% fat diet

it seems even the engineered ones all didn't get fat on their 20/20/60
"While most rodents tend to become obese on high-fat diets, there can
be variable responses in weight gain, glucose tolerance, insulin
resistance, triglycerides and other parameters depending on the strain.
Some inbred strains are more susceptible to obesity when fed high-fat
diets such as the C57Bl6 or AKR mouse (11). However, strains that
exhibit similar levels of weight gain may show different responses to
other parameters. For example, when fed a 58 kcal% fat diet, C57Bl6
mice and AKR mice will have similar degrees of weight gain, but
C57Bl6 mice are more glucose intolerant compared to AKR mice
(11). Other strains are simply more resistant to obesity, such as the
SWR/J and A/J mice (12, 13). Even within the same strain, different
phenotypical responses to high fat diets have been observed between
animals bred in different facilities (14)."

@jack412
Re Fructose and fat mice.
They are very striking pictures but those mice were taking in 60% of energy from fructose. Have you or anyone else on here really had that much fructose in your diet?
Fructose in the form of HFGS isn't a large part of the European diet as there is a quota on it's production.
In the US,fructose is more common but even there , in those people with the highest intake it forms less than 20% of the energy intake so not a very good comparison . Besides do you actually have the same metabolism as a rat?
http://evolvinghealthscience.blogspot.co.uk/2012/05/fate-of-fructose-interview-with-dr-john.html

I could find many pictures of lab animals that have been made fat on an 60% fat diet. It's a standard method of inducing obese rats ;heres how to do it (link to google cache
And they will also get fat on an ad lib 'Cafeteria' diet made up of typical high fat/sugar/salt processed foods because they will indeed eat more of it.

I prefer exercised mouse and sedentary mouse both on normal chow .
View attachment 9624

 

[jack412]

Oh please lets not get into fights about pictures of fat pets! Don't we have enough to worry about fighting this disease?

this will cheer you up Zand
http://news.osu.edu/news/2014/11/21...iet-does-not-increase-saturated-fat-in-blood/

Doubling or even nearly tripling saturated fat in the diet does not drive up total levels of saturated fat in the blood.

However, increasing levels of carbohydrates in the diet during the study promoted a steady increase in the blood of a fatty acid linked to an elevated risk for diabetes and heart disease.

 

[zand]

this will cheer you up Zand
http://news.osu.edu/news/2014/11/21...iet-does-not-increase-saturated-fat-in-blood/

Doubling or even nearly tripling saturated fat in the diet does not drive up total levels of saturated fat in the blood.

However, increasing levels of carbohydrates in the diet during the study promoted a steady increase in the blood of a fatty acid linked to an elevated risk for diabetes and heart disease.

Thanks Jack - you always seem to know what will put a smile on my face, don't you?!

 

[jack412]

I would have guessed rodents weren't adapted to high fat diets, but it seems they have a lower crarb requirement to go ketogenic

http://ketogeniclifestyle.com/influ...tion-and-body-composition-in-adult-rats-1989/

Experiments have shown that the amount and source of dietary energy may alter protein metabolism.
To examine this question further, adult rats were fed diets providing ratios of CHO:FAT as a percentage of energy of 0.5, 1.0, 1.5, 2.0, 2.5 or 3.0 for 6 wk. Mean energy and protein intakes were 93.0 +/- 0.8 kcal/d and 5.3 +/- 0.1 g/d, respectively.

Final body weight was lower in rats fed the high fat diet (CHO:FAT, 0.5) than in rats fed the high carbohydrate diet (CHO:FAT, 3.0) (P less than 0.05), and a linear response was observed over the entire range of treatments (r = 0.92).

Rats fed the high fat diet had the highest nitrogen balance; values were significantly (P less than 0.05) different from those of rats fed high carbohydrate diets (CHO:FAT, 2.0 or 2.5) when expressed as mg nitrogen/kcal energy gain.

Rats fed the high fat diet had the highest protein gain and the lowest fat gain as a function of energy gain.

It is concluded that alterations in nonprotein energy source result in metabolic changes, which may be related to adaptations in energy expenditure and/or protein deposition.

McCargar, L.J., Baracos, V.E. & Clandinin, M.T., 1989.
The Journal of nutrition, 119(9), pp.1240–1245.
Available at: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/2795238

 

[douglas99]

Meanwhile, away from random pictures and unrelated articles on pets, back on topic please?

 

[douglas99]

this will cheer you up Zand
http://news.osu.edu/news/2014/11/21...iet-does-not-increase-saturated-fat-in-blood/

Doubling or even nearly tripling saturated fat in the diet does not drive up total levels of saturated fat in the blood.

However, increasing levels of carbohydrates in the diet during the study promoted a steady increase in the blood of a fatty acid linked to an elevated risk for diabetes and heart disease.

Read the full article, and bear in mind the spin put on result for the sponsors benefit.

This work was supported by the Dairy Research Institute, the National Cattlemen’s Beef Association and the Egg Nutrition Center.

Talk about a biased conclusion, compared to the reality of the actual findings.

'Compared to baseline, there were significant improvements in blood glucose, insulin and blood pressure that were similar across diets. Participants, on average, lost almost 22 pounds by the end of the trial.'

And what does wiki say about palmitoleic acid

'A beneficial fatty acid, it has been shown to increase insulin sensitivity by suppressing inflammation, as well as inhibit the destruction of insulin-secreting pancreatic beta cells.'

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palmitoleic_acid

Guess they don't have the same backers?

 

[jack412]

Read the full article, and bear in mind the spin put on result for the sponsors benefit.

This work was supported by the Dairy Research Institute, the National Cattlemen’s Beef Association and the Egg Nutrition Center.

Talk about a biased conclusion, compared to the reality of the actual findings.

'Compared to baseline, there were significant improvements in blood glucose, insulin and blood pressure that were similar across diets. Participants, on average, lost almost 22 pounds by the end of the trial.'

And what does wiki say about palmitoleic acid

'A beneficial fatty acid, it has been shown to increase insulin sensitivity by suppressing inflammation, as well as inhibit the destruction of insulin-secreting pancreatic beta cells.'

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palmitoleic_acid

Guess they don't have the same backers?

edit, why did you delete your wonder wiki, that is in my quote of you?

:what does wiki say about elevated palmitoleic acid in the blood? all sorts of bad things?

they were on a diet...., they lost weight,..... the lchf didn't increase blood fat.. high carb did

"Compared to baseline, there were significant improvements in blood glucose, insulin and blood pressure that were similar across diets. Participants, on average, lost almost 22 pounds by the end of the trial.

When looking at palmitoleic acid, however, the scientists found that it consistently decreased on the high-fat/low-carb diet in all participants.

The fatty acid then showed a step-wise increase in concentration in the blood as carbs were progressively added to the diet.

Elevated levels of palmitoleic acid in the blood have been linked to obesity and higher risk for inflammation, insulin resistance, impaired glucose tolerance, metabolic syndrome, type-2 diabetes, heart disease and prostate cancer.

The study does not address what happens to palmitoleic acid levels when high carbs are combined with a diet high in saturated fat. Instead, Volek hoped to identify the carb-intake point at which participants began to store fat."

 

[catherinecherub]

Would you both @jack412 and @douglas99 have some consideration for the rest of the forum members.
Why you have to clash on every subject is beyond me and this trying to outdo the other gets boring for others.
Either answer the OP or leave the thread alone.

 

[runner2009]

@jack412

those mice were taking in 60% of energy from fructose.

accordingly this is not really a high carb diet but a high fat diet as the larger % of fructose is converted to fat in the liver.

 

[jack412]

accordingly this is not really a high carb diet but a high fat diet as the larger % of fructose is converted to fat in the liver.

sounds like you watch the video..or already knew it

the other thing with fructose is even without eating it... the T2 body converts glucose to fructose through the polyol pathway at up to 10x that of a normal person's 3%
so we are making our own fructose to make fat..How can we win?
17 min into video..

 

[Andy12345]

why was my post deleted? I only said "I'm not bored " did that break a rule I'm not aware of?

 

[runner2009]

T2 body converts glucose to fructose through the polyol pathway at up to 10x that of a normal person's 3%
so we are making our own fructose to make fat..

***??? you are joking right? I've never heard that. Why is that the case? What changes in a T2 body would cause that.

Is glucose created by gluconeogenesis converted to fat as well

Jack on a side note this article from 1997 says that if you have adequate insulin that protein does not readily turn to glucose but if your insulin is low or non existent it does.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9416027

Its just so complicated. Almost need a spreadsheet to keep it all together

 

[jack412]

***??? you are joking right? I've never heard that. Why is that the case? What changes in a T2 body would cause that.

Is glucose created by converted to fat as well

Jack on a side note this article from 1997 says that if you have adequate insulin that protein does not readily turn to glucose but if your insulin is low or non existent it does.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9416027

Its just so complicated. Almost need a spreadsheet to keep it all together

sorry it was 17 min into video, have a look..
or look on google https://www.google.com.au/#q=Fructose+synthesized++glucose++polyol+pathway+"insulin+resistance"

if the body isn't using the glucose, I guess it's metabolised the same as other glucose,

I didn't know that about protein, I'll read up on it..thanks