Can people really be to blame?

Scardoc

Well-Known Member
Messages
494
There are very few people on this forum who will agree that they ate their way to Type2 diabetes. Unless you understand the condition then you really should not make rash statements as they stigmatise people and can be very upsetting. The last thing we want here are divisions between the community

A community is :“a social group sharing common characteristics or interests or perceiving itself as distinct in some respect from the larger society within which it exists”.
A forum is: “a meeting place for the discussion of questions of public interest”.

Yes, by definition. this is a diabetic community but first and foremost it is a forum. One of the fundamental points, in my opinion, of a forum is that it’s an area where people can discuss very different points of view. It is from doing this that humans have evolved so wonderfully and that people can learn other points of view and perhaps alter their opinions.

You cannot, again, in my opinion, as a moderator say that you do not want “divisions between the community” because we are not living in North Korea and don’t all have to sport the same haircut. You can ask for respect and the forum does this already and has procedures in place for dealing with anyone who crosses the various lines. However, if someone, like myself, has the opinion that a large number of T2 diabetics are largely responsible for their condition and a larger number of obese people are largely responsible for their condition then I have the right to express that, as I have done many times before, without feeling that I am creating any division. I like to think that when expressing this opinion I always state that I do not believe it is everyone’s fault and that I articulate my opinion well.
Many people over the years have on this very forum expressed the belief that their lifestyle led to developing T2 diabetes and that it empowered them to take control and they have subsequently become healthier than ever. Sometimes, the “blame game” can actually result in positivity and the word “blame” immediately has connotations of nastiness and finger pointing but I think it’s more to do with responsibility. That responsibility comes from many people and centres around the Government, parents and, most importantly, the individual.

I don’t know if many people share my views and are just afraid to say it. This forum, like society in general, seems to be heading the way of popularity contests and damning those who think that, yeah, hang on, maybe it is someone’s fault. Take the example below from bluejeans98 post. Someone who works in the pharma industry looking into cures for diseases. From this I think we can assume that it is a well-educated, intelligent person who probably has a much better understanding than we do. What happens though? He’s an idiot. Ignorant fool. People like him are the problem.
I have said it before and I will repeat it: it is just as dangerous to believe that no one is to blame as it is to tar everyone with the same brush. I am not saying it is acceptable, ever, to point the finger at one individual person as you do not know their personal circumstances. However, as a society, we can’t just say “it’s in the genes” or “It’s insulin resistance” or x, y or z, without also acknowledging that it could be down to personal responsibility.

If the hierarchy of this forum want to create a community without division then what is the point? This forum has, for as long as I’ve been a member, offered tremendous support to people who really need it, education, information and, shall we say, lively debate. As long as people are respectful and keep it above the belt then leave it as open as possible.

I was talking to a guy over the weekend who works in the pharma industry looking into cures for diseases. I said to him pity you have not found a cure for Type 2 diabetes. He said he worked on diabetes cures for 4 years and alas you cannot put a gym membership in a pill.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 2 people

zand

Master
Messages
10,784
Type of diabetes
Type 2
Treatment type
Diet only
I think the OP on the original thread which you refer to was mostly complaining that she had to pay for a full meal when not all of it was suitable for her as a diabetic. This to my mind was fine to her to express. What I didn't like was the superiority she seemed to feel because she was normal weight and hadn't 'brought this disease on herself'. So that would infer that it's OK for the restaurant to charge me for the full meal, even though I wasn't eating it all, because I am seriously obese. I mentioned in my reply that I haven't been able to eat a 3 course meal for many years, simply because I had cut down my food intake to try to lose weight and my stomach can't manage so much food at once now. This happened years before I became diabetic. I never managed to lose the weight until I started LCHF and even now it's slow. So yes, I got a little upset by the comment and I didn't find it respectful of where I am in my walk with diabetes.

Of course we should be allowed to express opinions; as you say it is a forum. I think the moderator in this instance was simply explaining the views of many of us who had replied.

Did I eat my way to diabetes? Yes and no. Yes, because I believed the rubbish I was fed about carbs particularly wholemeal ones being good for us and the lie about saturated fats being bad. No, because I did my best with the knowledge I had at the time. No-one could have tried harder than me. I just didn't have the key, but I searched for it for years. So I don't think someone who has until fairly recently been able to eat 3 course meals has any right to say I caused this myself.

Are others to blame? I believe there is nearly always a reason (medical, physiological, psychological or emotional) for someone overeating or eating the wrong foods, so no I wouldn't use the word 'blame'. You of course are free to argue with me and I'm sure you will. (I may not have time to get back to you today!)

Ironically I agree with your post though, just not in respect of this particular thread.

This is one of the rare occasions when I agree with a moderator. (lol I hope I don't get a warning for saying I don't often agree with them:eek:)
 
  • Like
Reactions: 12 people

Scardoc

Well-Known Member
Messages
494
Are others to blame? I believe there is nearly always a reason (medical, physiological, psychological or emotional) for someone overeating or eating the wrong foods, so no I wouldn't use the word 'blame'. You of course are free to argue with me and I'm sure you will. (I may not have time to get back to you today!)

Ironically I agree with your post though, just not in respect of this particular thread.

This is one of the rare occasions when I agree with a moderator. (lol I hope I don't get a warning for saying I don't often agree with them:eek:)

No argument, just a discussion! I do disagree on there always being a reason, this is my entire point. Some people choose to live unhealthily and I think acknowledging this is a very important part of helping reduce levels of diabetes and obesity.

I did post here as I think I was moving away from the OP on the other thread.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 4 people

zand

Master
Messages
10,784
Type of diabetes
Type 2
Treatment type
Diet only
Some people choose to live unhealthily, I agree. What I would ask is why they lack the will power, drive, self belief, self esteem to make different choices? Why do they think so little of themselves that their health or what they look like doesn't matter? Why does someone choose to punish their own body? I think there is always a reason, but we don't always know it. So yes, I agree they need to acknowledge that they are eating themselves ill. I would just go a step further and ask them to acknowledge why they are doing this because then they can really change old habits.

I referred to the OP on the other thread because I don't think you can divorce the moderator's comments from that particular thread. The comments make most sense in the context of that thread. I won't do it again though, this thread is a good discussion without any more references to anywhere else.

I used to be a self righteous slim person who thought obese people must eat lots more than me. I learnt the hard way that this isn't always true. I'm fatter but older, wiser and nicer now. :)

edit: some on this forum will probably only agree with the 'older' bit ;)
 
  • Like
Reactions: 10 people
Messages
18,448
Type of diabetes
Type 1
Treatment type
Insulin
Dislikes
Bullies, Liars, Trolls and dishonest cruel people
A community is :“a social group sharing common characteristics or interests or perceiving itself as distinct in some respect from the larger society within which it exists”.
A forum is: “a meeting place for the discussion of questions of public interest”.

Yes, by definition. this is a diabetic community but first and foremost it is a forum. One of the fundamental points, in my opinion, of a forum is that it’s an area where people can discuss very different points of view. It is from doing this that humans have evolved so wonderfully and that people can learn other points of view and perhaps alter their opinions.

You cannot, again, in my opinion, as a moderator say that you do not want “divisions between the community” because we are not living in North Korea and don’t all have to sport the same haircut. You can ask for respect and the forum does this already and has procedures in place for dealing with anyone who crosses the various lines. However, if someone, like myself, has the opinion that a large number of T2 diabetics are largely responsible for their condition and a larger number of obese people are largely responsible for their condition then I have the right to express that, as I have done many times before, without feeling that I am creating any division. I like to think that when expressing this opinion I always state that I do not believe it is everyone’s fault and that I articulate my opinion well.
Many people over the years have on this very forum expressed the belief that their lifestyle led to developing T2 diabetes and that it empowered them to take control and they have subsequently become healthier than ever. Sometimes, the “blame game” can actually result in positivity and the word “blame” immediately has connotations of nastiness and finger pointing but I think it’s more to do with responsibility. That responsibility comes from many people and centres around the Government, parents and, most importantly, the individual.

I don’t know if many people share my views and are just afraid to say it. This forum, like society in general, seems to be heading the way of popularity contests and damning those who think that, yeah, hang on, maybe it is someone’s fault. Take the example below from bluejeans98 post. Someone who works in the pharma industry looking into cures for diseases. From this I think we can assume that it is a well-educated, intelligent person who probably has a much better understanding than we do. What happens though? He’s an idiot. Ignorant fool. People like him are the problem.
I have said it before and I will repeat it: it is just as dangerous to believe that no one is to blame as it is to tar everyone with the same brush. I am not saying it is acceptable, ever, to point the finger at one individual person as you do not know their personal circumstances. However, as a society, we can’t just say “it’s in the genes” or “It’s insulin resistance” or x, y or z, without also acknowledging that it could be down to personal responsibility.

If the hierarchy of this forum want to create a community without division then what is the point? This forum has, for as long as I’ve been a member, offered tremendous support to people who really need it, education, information and, shall we say, lively debate. As long as people are respectful and keep it above the belt then leave it as open as possible.

The 'hierarchy' on the foum, ie moderators,if that who you are referring too, do a good job by trying to keep the forum on an even keel. I see no hostility or negativity in Catherine Cherubs post at all.:confused: We are human and sometimes emotion spills over in posts and then others pile in and it causes unnecessary negativity. and don't forget the numerous 'Trolls'. There have, a few times, been some unpleasants posts on threads and caused friction. Unfortunately some will not 'leave it as open as possible'.
True, many type 2's have led a very unhealthy life and said so very truthfully and openly and then it's a huge wake up call for them, so they start by turning their lives around.:)

The forum. in the past, in the present and in the future, will continue to support and help members. as do the members themselves, who go out of their way to try and help each other, whatever their type and long may it continue :D

Christmas wishes RRB



 
  • Like
Reactions: 13 people

Scardoc

Well-Known Member
Messages
494
The 'hierarchy' on the foum, ie moderators,if that who you are referring too, do a good job by trying to keep the forum on an even keel. I see no hostility or negativity in Catherine Cherubs post at all.:confused:

I see no hostility or negativity either in CC's post, agree with that. I also agree that the job moderators do is not only excellent, but essential. I am also happy to know that I have acknowledged that in previous threads.

Where I have an issue is when anyone, but especially someone in an elevated position on the forum, uses language that suggests a certain opinion is causing division. Disagreement maybe, but that's not always a bad thing. However, the forum has lots of natural division - between the different types of diabetics, those who low carb and those who don't, different types of diets and those who aim for a "non diabetic" Hba1c and those who don't. It's natural. If, and this is strictly my opinion, you don't accept and allow this division, and assuming it's respectfully conveyed, then you are in danger of allowing those who shout loudest to drive away or silence others.

I certainly don't believe my views are rash and I hope others who don't agree with the mainstream on this forum put their views across.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 2 people
Messages
18,448
Type of diabetes
Type 1
Treatment type
Insulin
Dislikes
Bullies, Liars, Trolls and dishonest cruel people
I see no hostility or negativity either in CC's post, agree with that. I also agree that the job moderators do is not only excellent, but essential. I am also happy to know that I have acknowledged that in previous threads.

Where I have an issue is when anyone, but especially someone in an elevated position on the forum, uses language that suggests a certain opinion is causing division. Disagreement maybe, but that's not always a bad thing. However, the forum has lots of natural division - between the different types of diabetics, those who low carb and those who don't, different types of diets and those who aim for a "non diabetic" Hba1c and those who don't. It's natural. If, and this is strictly my opinion, you don't accept and allow this division, and assuming it's respectfully conveyed, then you are in danger of allowing those who shout loudest to drive away or silence others.

I certainly don't believe my views are rash and I hope others who don't agree with the mainstream on this forum put their views across.
I see no hostility or negativity either in CC's post, agree with that. I also agree that the job moderators do is not only excellent, but essential. I am also happy to know that I have acknowledged that in previous threads.

Where I have an issue is when anyone, but especially someone in an elevated position on the forum, uses language that suggests a certain opinion is causing division. Disagreement maybe, but that's not always a bad thing. However, the forum has lots of natural division - between the different types of diabetics, those who low carb and those who don't, different types of diets and those who aim for a "non diabetic" Hba1c and those who don't. It's natural. If, and this is strictly my opinion, you don't accept and allow this division, and assuming it's respectfully conveyed, then you are in danger of allowing those who shout loudest to drive away or silence others.

I certainly don't believe my views are rash and I hope others who don't agree with the mainstream on this forum put their views across.

You have your opinion and I have answered with mine :)
I, personally, am not allowing any division, I , personally, am not allowing those who shout the loudest to post drive away or silence others:eek: Confusing :confused:
Lets just hope the thread will not start any friction or negaitivity within the forum, which oh. often happens.

Good day

RRB :)
 
  • Like
Reactions: 9 people

zand

Master
Messages
10,784
Type of diabetes
Type 2
Treatment type
Diet only
Where I have an issue is when anyone, but especially someone in an elevated position on the forum, uses language that suggests a certain opinion is causing division. Disagreement maybe, but that's not always a bad thing. However, the forum has lots of natural division - between the different types of diabetics, those who low carb and those who don't, different types of diets and those who aim for a "non diabetic" Hba1c and those who don't. It's natural. If, and this is strictly my opinion, you don't accept and allow this division, and assuming it's respectfully conveyed, then you are in danger of allowing those who shout loudest to drive away or silence others.

I certainly don't believe my views are rash and I hope others who don't agree with the mainstream on this forum put their views across.

OK I'm probably getting myself into heaps of trouble now, so I'll wish you all a Merry Christmas in case I'm not around to do so later!

@ Scardoc What would you consider as respectful describing of differences when posting? Would for instance saying LCHFers and non LCHFers be divisive? (Yep I'm getting myself into hot water)

Happy New Year too. ;):bag:
 
  • Like
Reactions: 8 people
C

catherinecherub

Guest
A community is :“a social group sharing common characteristics or interests or perceiving itself as distinct in some respect from the larger society within which it exists”.
A forum is: “a meeting place for the discussion of questions of public interest”.

Yes, by definition. this is a diabetic community but first and foremost it is a forum. One of the fundamental points, in my opinion, of a forum is that it’s an area where people can discuss very different points of view. It is from doing this that humans have evolved so wonderfully and that people can learn other points of view and perhaps alter their opinions.

You cannot, again, in my opinion, as a moderator say that you do not want “divisions between the community” because we are not living in North Korea and don’t all have to sport the same haircut. You can ask for respect and the forum does this already and has procedures in place for dealing with anyone who crosses the various lines. However, if someone, like myself, has the opinion that a large number of T2 diabetics are largely responsible for their condition and a larger number of obese people are largely responsible for their condition then I have the right to express that, as I have done many times before, without feeling that I am creating any division. I like to think that when expressing this opinion I always state that I do not believe it is everyone’s fault and that I articulate my opinion well.
Many people over the years have on this very forum expressed the belief that their lifestyle led to developing T2 diabetes and that it empowered them to take control and they have subsequently become healthier than ever. Sometimes, the “blame game” can actually result in positivity and the word “blame” immediately has connotations of nastiness and finger pointing but I think it’s more to do with responsibility. That responsibility comes from many people and centres around the Government, parents and, most importantly, the individual.

I don’t know if many people share my views and are just afraid to say it. This forum, like society in general, seems to be heading the way of popularity contests and damning those who think that, yeah, hang on, maybe it is someone’s fault. Take the example below from bluejeans98 post. Someone who works in the pharma industry looking into cures for diseases. From this I think we can assume that it is a well-educated, intelligent person who probably has a much better understanding than we do. What happens though? He’s an idiot. Ignorant fool. People like him are the problem.
I have said it before and I will repeat it: it is just as dangerous to believe that no one is to blame as it is to tar everyone with the same brush. I am not saying it is acceptable, ever, to point the finger at one individual person as you do not know their personal circumstances. However, as a society, we can’t just say “it’s in the genes” or “It’s insulin resistance” or x, y or z, without also acknowledging that it could be down to personal responsibility.

If the hierarchy of this forum want to create a community without division then what is the point? This forum has, for as long as I’ve been a member, offered tremendous support to people who really need it, education, information and, shall we say, lively debate. As long as people are respectful and keep it above the belt then leave it as open as possible.

Opinions, opinions. We all have them and yours is no more valid than mine.
If you want to attack a Moderator for having an opinion then be my guest.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 4 people

Scardoc

Well-Known Member
Messages
494
@ Scardoc What would you consider as respectful describing of differences when posting? Would for instance saying LCHFers and non LCHFers be divisive? (Yep I'm getting myself into hot water)

Happy New Year too. ;):bag:

I would consider respect to be shown in accepting others points of views and, if and when challenging it, doing so with reasoned arguments/opinions and not abuse. There is a natural division between LCHF and non LCHF already there. Nothing anyone says on this forum causes that division. What I am trying to convey is that division is not necessarily a bad thing.

Charles Darwin put his head above the parapet and offended the entire World of religion by bringing forth his theory of natural selection. How divisive did that turn out to be? But it didn’t make him wrong.

Opinions, opinions. We all have them and yours is no more valid than mine.
If you want to attack a Moderator for having an opinion then be my guest.

I really don’t see it as an attack and some people might very well see my opinion as being less valid as I am not a moderator. Hence my concern. You are a moderator and I’m afraid in my eyes that gives you a little more responsibility in choosing your words. I was on the brink of not commenting on that thread for fear of being perceived to cause division….for a few seconds! It’s nothing personal.
 

anna29

Well-Known Member
Retired Moderator
Messages
4,789
Type of diabetes
Type 2
Treatment type
Insulin
Dislikes
Cruelty to Animals/Children
Liars/Manipulators/Bullying
No divisons allowed here nor personal attacks - please see the forum rules on this .
A them and us mentality or personal attacks - is against the forum rules .
 
  • Like
Reactions: 6 people

pavlosn

Well-Known Member
Messages
2,705
Type of diabetes
Type 2
Treatment type
Tablets (oral)
@Scardoc

I do not think that many t2's are unaware of the fact that a previously unhealthy diet and or sedentary lifestyle may have contributed to them being diagnosed as diabetes.

But that may well not be the whole story. If it were all the people that have similar habits would go on to also develop diabetes. The reality is that the majority do not. So there must be other factors at play, such as a genetic predisposition.

This forum is here to offer support not to apportion blame.

Of what use would it be to a newly diagnosed t2 diabetic, typically struggling to come to terms with his condition, to increase his feelings of guilt ( the stigma associated with t2 and the continuous bad press that the disease attracts see to it that such feelings are almost inevitable) by stressing that he brought this on himself, especially if it is by no means certain that this is true.

People are encouraged to take responsibility for their health and adopt healthier habits, better diet and more exercise.

How and why someone came to be diabetic is of little consequence. What matters is how they can go forward with their condition in a way that will allow them to lead a full and healthy life.

Would you have us blame cancer patients for maybe having been smokers or aids sufferers for any aspect of their lives that may have contributed to them contacting their disease.

In stressing that t2 may not be completely self inflicted, we are only trying to redress the balance of all the bad publicity which is already stacked against us.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 17 people

Brunneria

Guru
Retired Moderator
Messages
21,889
Type of diabetes
Type 2
Treatment type
Diet only
I think it is very rude to have quoted @catherinecherub and @bluejeans98 , out of context, from a different thread.

They should have been consulted and invited to contribute by being tagged before the thread was created.
Does bluejeans even know that he has been dragged into this thread?

There should also have been a link to the original thread so that people could check the context and see the discussion in its entirety. So I will provide that here.
http://www.diabetes.co.uk/forum/threads/nightmare-before-christmas.69301/

@Scardoc , you and I have had at least one conversation on the subject of blame and responsibility, before this.
I understand where you are coming from, and you have certainly moderated your judgemental language since then. But I still think you are looking at the causes of diabetes and obesity at a far too superficial level, perpetuating a number of myths which do type 2 diabetics no favours.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 14 people

NoCrbs4Me

Well-Known Member
Messages
3,700
Type of diabetes
I reversed my Type 2
Treatment type
Other
Dislikes
Vegetables
The bottom line is that what causes type 2 diabetes is not known, so it's a bit ridiculous to say that someone's poor lifestyle choices caused it. Of course, once you have it, lifestyle changes are necessary to avoid diabetic complications, but that's a different subject.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 14 people

Scardoc

Well-Known Member
Messages
494
@Scardoc

I do not think that many t2's are unaware of the fact that a previously unhealthy diet and or sedentary lifestyle may have contributed to them being diagnosed as diabetes.

But that may well not be the whole story. If it were all the people that have similar habits would go on to also develop diabetes. The reality is that the majority do not. So there must be other factors at play, such as a genetic predisposition.

This forum is here to offer support not to apportion blame.

Of what use would it be to a newly diagnosed t2 diabetic, typically struggling to come to terms with his condition, to increase his feelings of guilt ( the stigma associated with t2 and the continuous bad press that the disease attracts see to it that such feelings are almost inevitable) by stressing that he brought this on himself, especially if it is by no means certain that this is true.

People are encouraged to take responsibility for their health and adopt healthier habits, better diet and more exercise.

How and why someone came to be diabetic is of little consequence. What matters is how they can go forward with their condition in a way that will allow them to lead a full and healthy life.

Would you have us blame cancer patients for maybe having been smokers or aids sufferers for any aspect of their lives that may have contributed to them contacting their disease.

In stressing that t2 may not be completely self inflicted, we are only trying to redress the balance of all the bad publicity which is already stacked against us.

You raise an interesting point, I have tremendous sympathy for the generation brought up believing that smoking was good for you and fashionable. In modern times we know the risk involved and tobacco is no longer displayed, has images of what it can do to you on the packet and is extremely expensive. Would you blame someone who smokes 20 a day if they developed lung cancer??

I also agree that blame after the fact is pointless but by confronting the fact that some people are to blame you can open another avenue to tackle the issue, i.e., through education.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 2 people

Scardoc

Well-Known Member
Messages
494
The bottom line is that what causes type 2 diabetes is not known, so it's a bit ridiculous to say that someone's poor lifestyle choices caused it. Of course, once you have it, lifestyle changes are necessary to avoid diabetic complications, but that's a different subject.

It's far from ridiculous when you take into account the risk factors and in the absence of a definitive cause are these not we need to consider most?
 

Scardoc

Well-Known Member
Messages
494
@Brunneria

My judgemental language? Perhaps you should have the courtesy to attach that thread so people can decide for themselves. I do not and have not judged anyone. I am simply of the belief that there are people to whom blame for their condition, be it T2 or obesity, can fairly be apportioned.

I don't let the T1's off either as I recently posted that the awful statistics on T1's meeting targets is not entirely the fault of the NHS but those who choose not to look after themselves.

To solve problems you need to put everything on the table.
 

Bluetit1802

Legend
Messages
25,216
Type of diabetes
Type 2 (in remission!)
Treatment type
Diet only
@Brunneria


I don't let the T1's off either as I recently posted that the awful statistics on T1's meeting targets is not entirely the fault of the NHS but those who choose not to look after themselves.

.

When discussing medications and whether or not to take certain ones with my specialist oncologist, he said diabetics are the worst group for non-compliance with their medication. That was before I was diabetic, but I have always remembered the conversation.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 2 people