Can people really be to blame?

[Brunneria]

@Brunneria

My judgemental language? Perhaps you should have the courtesy to attach that thread so people can decide for themselves. I do not and have not judged anyone. I am simply of the belief that there are people to whom blame for their condition, be it T2 or obesity, can fairly be apportioned.

I don't let the T1's off either as I recently posted that the awful statistics on T1's meeting targets is not entirely the fault of the NHS but those who choose not to look after themselves.

To solve problems you need to put everything on the table.

At your request:
http://www.diabetes.co.uk/forum/thr...ng-us-for-being-sick.67124/page-5#post-675358

 

[Scardoc]

At your request:
http://www.diabetes.co.uk/forum/thr...ng-us-for-being-sick.67124/page-5#post-675358

Much obliged

 

[NoCrbs4Me]

It's far from ridiculous when you take into account the risk factors and in the absence of a definitive cause are these not we need to consider most?

Sorry, I'm not following your logic.

 

[Scardoc]

Sorry, I'm not following your logic.

You say that there is no known cause. So, what are the major risk factors? Being overweight and obesity are two.

Are these risks controllable through lifestyle choices? Yes, so it is not a ridiculous concept at all.

 

[NoCrbs4Me]

You say that there is no known cause. So, what are the major risk factors? Being overweight and obesity are two.

Are these risks controllable through lifestyle choices? Yes, so it is not a ridiculous concept at all.

But what if being overweight is a symptom of diabetes, not a cause:

http://www.phlaunt.com/diabetes/14046739.php

 

[anna29]

Guys - what about insulin resistance ?
Symptom ?

Also what about those who became diabetic through 'illness' ?
I was a real skinny Minnie fought off pneumonial infection plus
septis infection , then was told am diabetic .
Feeling furious at this - does not cover how I felt at the time .

I lost 2 stones with battling off these illnesses .
My BP was dangerously high during hospital and they battled
to get this down .
Couldn't and wouldn't eat as simply had NO or little appetite .
Obesity clearly out of the question for causing my diabetes !

It isn't ALL about obesity as cause of diabetes ...
Other factors can trigger this to happen .
Auto immune damage happened to me - I was told .

Thyroid went underactive immediately after giving birth to
our only daughter .
Another autoimmune thing - my thyroid failed to re-regulate
itself after a lovely problem free pregnancy .
Plus am coeliac another bloomin autoimmune thing !

We are all different and unique - cant be ALL thrown into same box and labelled the same .
.

 

[daddys1]

You say that there is no known cause. So, what are the major risk factors? Being overweight and obesity are two.

Are these risks controllable through lifestyle choices? Yes, so it is not a ridiculous concept at all.

Hi Scardoc, just read all this and most of the other thread and I think it's probably a very balanced view that you have with regards to one of the many causes of diabetes but being over weight/obese is personal, and yes there is no reason why people should not be able to respectfully discuss these things between themselves, but what I ask, is why on this forum?

We are here for the 'now', a forum run by so many dedicated like minded people and linked by the many guises and complications of diabetes to help each other & all new comers.

We are here to help all the people who unfortunately have been dealt this hand in life, I think I can only agree, that discussions about whether we ourselves were to blame by unhealthy lifestyles etc. is a very negative vibe to putting out onto this forum, in particular in front of anyone who have just being diagnosed.

It was also as stated earlier that there is probably a lot of very vulnerable people on this forum, who get there strength from here the last thing they would want hear/read is that themselves are be to blame for their condition. I think we forget that when doing all this posting there are many just looking................

Neil

 

[NoCrbs4Me]

While it has been observed that there is a correlation between type 2 diabetes and being overweight, that's all it is - a correlation. A correlation is no the same as causation. If being overweight causes diabetes, the exact mechanism sure hasn't been found yet. i.e. there is no direct proof that being overweight causes diabetes. It is just as possible (much more likely in my opinion) that weight gain is a symptom of diabetes.

 

[Mike d]

I've read enough testimonies from people on this board that suggest it is a VERY simplistic approach to tie obesity to diabetes. Count me out on that score as I NEVER got above 89KG (and I'm over 6 foot tall), NEVER had takeaway as a diet, NEVER consumed soft drinks, ALWAYS exercised enough at work to keep me active, ALWAYS ate vegetables with every meal, generally took care of myself and NO history of this condition in the immediate family.

Those cards are now dealt and as much as I'd like to sit out the next round, I can't.

I NEVER considered myself a candidate for this condition, but I'll bet those that have (or have had) problems FAR more serious than mine (cancer / glaucoma, kidney / heart / lung disease / leukemia / blindness / stroke ... hit by a bus) didn't either.

Your opinions are just that ... opinions .... and Neil nailed it by suggesting that they're hardly helpful when people are looking for support. The absolute last thing they need is uniformed / misguided / hazard guess judgements that may well derail their attempts to treat / respond to the cards they're now forced to play. They come here to express a voice. They are permitted to scream for all I care. They've earnt that much.

Ridiculous .......

 

[zand]

I really don’t see it as an attack and some people might very well see my opinion as being less valid as I am not a moderator. Hence my concern. You are a moderator and I’m afraid in my eyes that gives you a little more responsibility in choosing your words. I was on the brink of not commenting on that thread for fear of being perceived to cause division….for a few seconds! It’s nothing personal.

@Scardoc I see your point that moderators should 'set a good example', but I wonder how much, if any, training and support they get? They need to be able to express their opinion like everyone else. As far as I can see it's a thankless task to be a moderator, one which I certainly wouldn't want (sighs of relief all round).

 

[pavlosn]

@Scardoc

Do you think people chose to become t2 diabetics?

For that matter, do you think people chose to be overweight and obese?

Do you think the message that obesity is associated with increased risk of disease and mortality is one that is not widely broadcast?

Do you think that we live in a society that makes obesity fashionable?

Do you not think that most obese people have probably been trying for years to lose weight and somehow failed?

Have you wondered why that is? Surely it can't be because they are all weak or ill disciplined or greedy or whatever other character flaw you perhaps wish to attribute to them?

Could it be because the obesity is not a cause but another symptom of a bodily dysfunction (insulin resistance) that causes both the obesity and diabetes? As insulin dependent diabetics will testify, excess insulin causes weight gain. An insulin resistant t2 or pre t2 individual naturally has elevated plasma insulin levels.

Could it be that a "healthy" high carb low fat diet, the cure advocated for the obesity/diabetes epidemic has failed to address the issue and possibly made the problem worse?

Could it be that the pressures of modern living, long working hours in often sedentary work, highly processed time saving pre packaged meals have also contributed to the problem?

I have no issue with more education towards highlighting the benefits of a better diet and more exercise.

I do fear though that the image you paint of t2 diabetics as happily eating their way to obesity and diabetes, in total unconcerned bliss and making no attempt to alter course until they find themselves diagnosed, is one that does not fit the vast majority of t2s.

I may have no problems with education but I do object to stigmatization and blame.

Nobody deserves diabetes and diabetes is not a punishment.

I agree that people need to take responsibility for their lives and health but taking responsibility is not the same as accepting blame.

Every single person that finds his way to this forum is given plenty of encouragement to take responsibility for his own health, be proactive and effect beneficial lifestyle changes to improve his diet, exercise regime and weight.

I fail to see what additional responsibility that person would take by trying to convince him that he is to blame for his disease.

Responsibility is positive, forward facing and empowering, while blame is the exact opposite: negative, backward looking and often incapacitating and counterproductive.

Pavlos

 

[zand]

Thanks @pavlosn Totally agree with you, you always say things much more eloquently than me.

 

[pavlosn]

Thanks @pavlosn Totally agree with you, you always say things much more eloquently than me.

You flatter me. At any rate it's the message that is important, not the words!

Pavlos

 

[Scardoc]

But what if being overweight is a symptom of diabetes, not a cause:

http://www.phlaunt.com/diabetes/14046739.php

In many cases it may be. I have not ever said that the single cause of T2 diabetes is being overweight. Being overweight could be genetic, many other medical conditions or the result of poor lifestyle choices.

 

[Scardoc]

It isn't ALL about obesity as cause of diabetes ...
Other factors can trigger this to happen .
Auto immune damage happened to me - I was told .

We are all different and unique - cant be ALL thrown into same box and labelled the same .
.

As above, 100% agree.

 

[Scardoc]

Your opinions are just that ... opinions .... and Neil nailed it by suggesting that they're hardly helpful when people are looking for support. The absolute last thing they need is uniformed / misguided / hazard guess judgements that may well derail their attempts to treat / respond to the cards they're now forced to play. They come here to express a voice. They are permitted to scream for all I care. They've earnt that much.

Ridiculous .......

When you refer to "they" then don't forget that that includes me and I have cards to play now as well. My opinion is well conveyed on this thread, and many others, that the acknowledgement of personal responsibility is a vital tool in reducing the number of people who have to "respond to the cards".

 

[Mike d]

When you refer to "they" then don't forget that that includes me and I have cards to play now as well. My opinion is well conveyed on this thread, and many others, that the acknowledgement of personal responsibility is a vital tool in reducing the number of people who have to "respond to the cards".

Who denied that? It was your way of expressing it. Out of here

 

[Scardoc]

@pavlosn

[COLOR=rgb(0, 0, 0)]I do fear though that the image you paint of t2 diabetics as happily eating their way to obesity and diabetes, in total unconcerned bliss and making no attempt to alter course until they find themselves diagnosed, is one that does not fit the vast majority of t2s.

Pavlos[/COLOR]

@Pavlos

I take extreme exception to the comment above. This is not the image I have painted and when you copy and paste the comments I have posted that prove me wrong then I will apologise to you and anyone else who feels the need for an apology.
I would urge you and others to read my previous comments more carefully as you are happy to pick out one word, blame, and completely ignore the context or the reason.

“Have you wondered why that is? Surely it can't be because they are all weak or ill disciplined or greedy or whatever other character flaw you perhaps wish to attribute to them?”
Again, copy and paste where I have said that.

“Could it be that the pressures of modern living, long working hours in often sedentary work, highly processed time saving pre packaged meals have also contributed to the problem?”
This comment particularly interests me as I spend up to 12hrs a day sitting on my backside and I choose to get out for a run afterwards and I choose not to eat highly processed time saving pre-packaged meals. But guess what? Once upon a time I chose to head down to the pub after works and sink a few pints and eat highly processed time saving pre-packaged meals. Can you guess what happened to me? That’s right, I gained weight. Did I blame myself at the time for the weight gain. Yes. Did I stop going to the pub after work? Yes. Did I choose to eat better. Yes. I took personal responsibility for my lifestyle.

Now, just so no one is in any doubt whatsoever, we are all different and I may be the complete exception to the rule and the only person on the face of the planet to whom a bit of blame and lots of shame did any good. But I’d bet anyone a pound to a penny I am far from alone.

**Not sure why this is all in red - perhaps because I pasted it in - not my way of shouting or trying to make a point.....honest!

 

[Mike d]

Pontificating I fear .... and if YOU don't get the point PN was attempting to convey, so be it. I sure did.

Nonetheless, I wish you a great Christmas. Take care Mike

 

[zand]

@Scardoc I'm interested as to why the bit of blame and lots of shame helped you.

For me it just drove me deeper into depression because I was already doing my best. I didn't need blame or shame I just needed someone to say 'low carb' to me and I would have done it. The depression just made things worse as I lacked the energy or the will to cook proper meals. It didn't help that a nurse from my surgery 'caught' me leaving a chip shop one day, so at my next appointment she laughed when I said I was trying to lose weight. The fish and chips were for my sons and husband as both boys had football training at different times that evening and it was hard to find the time to cook for them and deliver and collect them from training. My husband always got home from work between 8 and 9 pm in those days. I had already eaten a 'healthy' low fat meal. I have been wrongly judged by people like this on many occasions.

So was it just a case of 'head in the sand ' for you?