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FGB & Dawn Phenomenon

V

vit90

Well-Known Member
Messages
843
Location
UK
Type of diabetes
Type 2
Treatment type
Diet only
Am I mistaken to think that for a T2 a FGB taken at the surgery or hospital at, say, mid-morning, will be lower than one taken at home first thing in the morning at or soon after you get up? My reasoning is that there is the dawn phenomenon first thing in the morning and this has long passed by mid morning? So if you have good first in then morning readings you should be very pleased?
 
vit90 said:
Am I mistaken to think that for a T2 a FGB taken at the surgery or hospital at, say, mid-morning, will be lower than one taken at home first thing in the morning at or soon after you get up? My reasoning is that there is the dawn phenomenon first thing in the morning and this has long passed by mid morning? So if you have good first in then morning readings you should be very pleased?
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No, just the opposite. The longer you fast and move about, the more of a liver dump you are likely to experience. This is why my surgery (and others) no longer do FBG tests after initial diagnosis. The doctors know they are unreliable. Even getting to the surgery can make results worse, and the stress involved because you know you are having bloods taken. Liver dumps can happen at any time, not just overnight. I get one during and just after exercise.
 
Bluetit1802 said:
No, just the opposite. The longer you fast and move about, the more of a liver dump you are likely to experience. This is why my surgery (and others) no longer do FBG tests after initial diagnosis. The doctors know they are unreliable. Even getting to the surgery can make results worse, and the stress involved because you know you are having bloods taken. Liver dumps can happen at any time, not just overnight. I get one during and just after exercise.
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OK, interesting. I note that my one and only hospital FBG back in November was 4.5 and yet I haven't got anywhere near that since when testing at home, despite long bouts of very low calorie and carb dieting and more exercise. On that day I walked to the hospital (about a 20 minute walk from home) so maybe that mopped up some BG?
 
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Yes, that is a possibility. Had that been me, if the test were done within half an hour of arriving, my liver would have dumped due to walking 20 mins on an empty tummy. Different story on a full tummy with carbs though. That does make me drop.
 
My understanding is that the whole reason our liver is prepared to dump at all is to sustain us during exercise - small releases throughout the day to regulate hypos, and large dumps once our muscles use their limited stores of energy to keep us going during prolonged exercise, along with a morning dump to "get us going." It's the diabetic insulin resistance that makes those dumps unmanageable, coupled with our livers being a little more aggressive than they should be/our pancreas being a little less efficient at responding to higher BG levels.

With all the factors involved, everyone's experience can be a little different. My current diet has been very uniform, and there are still days where my BG Is in the 80 mg/dL range upon waking, and 100 other days. Your experience could be chalked up to variations/bias in your meter, or your unique physiology, it's hard to say. In my experience, the couple fasting BG's I've gotten in the morning from my doctor are always a little higher than what I would get at home.
 
For giggles, I did a second test for you this morning. Just before my previous post, my fresh-out-of-bed fasting BG was 84 mg/dL. I then did 30 minutes of interval cardio training, moderately intense peaks, and retested (still on empty stomach, but with two cups of oolong tea in me). post exercise, hour and a half after exercise BG was 101.

Doesn't really answer your question at all, or even directly relate to it because of the exercise, but it's numbers. I doubt I'll wake up early to exercise on a weekend, so I'll try to take several morning measurements (and forgo my tea) tomorrow to see how my fasting BG TRACKS AFTER WAKING. IT'll give me something to do on what should be a lazy Saturday :)

EDIT: I hate caps lock on the iPad. Not gonna edit it though.
 
I can't do any experimenting. I absolutely have to have my breakfast within 10 minutes of falling out of bed or I never wake up properly.
 
A walked to the supermarket to do a top-up shop at lunch time and in doing so delayed my lunch by half an hour. It's 50 minutes there and back including the shopping. The walk home is up hill for the last half and if I push it's quite a slog, which is what I did today. Back home I immediately did a test and - whoop! - a 4.5, the best reading I have had from the meter apart from a strange one or two when I first got the meter which were probably invalid.

I am excited with this result because I have also experienced BG increases immediately after exercise, including walks like today's. This time it's lower than my FBG today of 5.2, itself a good result for me. I know it's just one reading but it's heading in the right direction at last.

I have had my lunch now (2 boiled eggs, a smidge of home made mayo and some salad, plus a chicken Bovril (chicken broth drink - just 15 calories) ) which is about 200 calories in all and 400 calories for the day so far, so it will be interesting to see what happens before supper tonight (soy sauce marinaded salmon with sauted veg!). I'm not planning any more exercise for the day.
 
I'm looking forward to tomorrow's FBG because I had another 4.5 just before supper earlier - two in one day after none ever... I even broke into my new batch of strips to double check and it concurred. Definitely doing the 2 hour after test as well...
 
Mine starts going up as soon as I get up (6 to 7 am) and peaks at some random time from 8 am to noon. Every day seems to be different.
 
Well, this won't be much help. I woke up around 6:00 a.m. this morning, and tested at 6:45 at 93 mg/dL (about 5.2 mmol/L?). An hour later (7:45) I was at 86 (no food, just cigarettes and some oolong tea, which has a little caffeine). An hour after that I was at 90 (more tea and cigarettes, no food). So since waking I've been consistently around a "5" or so. Granted, I've been on the Newcastle diet for over five weeks . . . but my liver either didn't feel like glucose dumping this morning, my pancreas is doing way better than it used to (I remember fasting BGs of over 200) or my insulin resistence has decreased more than I thought.

I'm going to go exercise now, and I'll measure after that too, although those numbers will be even less useful. Again, probably just emphasizes how every person is different, and even the same person can be different in different days.

EDIT: after a pretty intense workout (30 minutes of cardio interval training on stationary bike, and weightlifting for chest/shoulders/back/triceps/biceps/forearm with three "breaks" during cardio for upper/lower ab exercises!) my BG was at 110. Finally gonna reward my poor body with a whey protein shake (I more than worked off the calories, and need the protein) and am also going to have a 100 calorie apple. My first Slimfast shake of the day just got postponed to noon.

EDIT #2: almost exactly two hours after my 110 post-exercise reading (and after eating my first piece of fruit in over five weeks) my BG was 95!
 
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Glitterbritches said:
Random question: how do you do your signature block? Do you copy and paste it into every post, or is there a signature feature on the forums that I just can't find?
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You need to add a signature using a computer (as apposed to a smart phone). Top right corner. Hold you cursor over your username, then a window pops open. Click on "signature". Type in your signature.
signature.jpg
 
Hi,

My fasting BG starts to rise before I wake up, then rises steadily until I eat something.

On the rare day when I don't have breakfast (fasting BG test, or some weird event like the alarm not going off), my BG seems to peak around 8-10 mmol/l. And then I crash. BG plummets. Hypo symptoms appear suddenly and I end up very irritated with myself, stuffing carbs, with knock on effects for the rest of the day.

So when they next call me in for a fasting BG test, I am going to ask them what time they want to see me, and what result they want to see. Pre-diabetic? (8am). Diabetic? (9-11am) Hypo? (11.30ish, depending on stress and activity)

I wonder how many people get incorrect diagnosis because of the time of their fasting BG?
 
Brunneria said:
Hi,

My fasting BG starts to rise before I wake up, then rises steadily until I eat something.

On the rare day when I don't have breakfast (fasting BG test, or some weird event like the alarm not going off), my BG seems to peak around 8-10 mmol/l. And then I crash. BG plummets. Hypo symptoms appear suddenly and I end up very irritated with myself, stuffing carbs, with knock on effects for the rest of the day.

So when they next call me in for a fasting BG test, I am going to ask them what time they want to see me, and what result they want to see. Pre-diabetic? (8am). Diabetic? (9-11am) Hypo? (11.30ish, depending on stress and activity)

I wonder how many people get incorrect diagnosis because of the time of their fasting BG?
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You get hypos as a T2? Have you had a C-Peptide/antibody test to rule out LADA? (Your signature says you are on no meds)
 
Glitterbritches said:
You get hypos as a T2? Have you had a C-Peptide/antibody test to rule out LADA? (Your signature says you are on no meds)
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Long story - I had reactive hypoglycaemia for about 30 years before getting T2, most of which time I have had PCOS and a prolactinoma (benign tumour of the pituitry gland) so I got here by a slightly different route than many. But, as I researched reactive hypoglycaemia, I found that it is a lot more common than people realise.

I think lots of us have very variable fasting bgs.

Definitely not LADA. I'm fat, weight loss is a slooooowwwwww business, and I've been like this a long time.

Thanks for the suggestion though. :)
 
Brunneria said:
Long story - I had reactive hypoglycaemia for about 30 years before getting T2, most of which time I have had PCOS and a prolactinoma (benign tumour of the pituitry gland) so I got here by a slightly different route than many. But, as I researched reactive hypoglycaemia, I found that it is a lot more common than people realise.

I think lots of us have very variable fasting bgs.

Definitely not LADA. I'm fat, weight loss is a slooooowwwwww business, and I've been like this a long time.

Thanks for the suggestion though. :)
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Unlike you, I'm super new to this, and have that newbie urge to "spot" issues that mimic my limited knowledge, and was all like "you can't get hypos as a T2 without drugs!?!? I just diagnosed her over the Internet!" Not really believing that, but at the same time as much curious as concerned :)
 
NoCrbs4Me said:
Under the right circumstances anyone can get a hypo.
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Under the right circumstances, you can get world-shattering earthquakes, but they are very, very rare. My understanding is that for a non-diabetic to get a hypo you'd need to experience a Rube Goldberg set of experiences or a terrible illness, and that this also holds largely true for T2s. Am I missing something (I assume I am missing something)
 
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