Saturated fats and type 2

[HSSS]

Another Apple news thread. https://apple.news/ALtadcYLWTBiK6BqXlEBNjQ

This one states saturated fats are the direct cause of type 2 diabetes. This would suggest that as we lower our insulin with low carb we raise it with saturated fats (whilst improving our heart health, or not, depending on what we trust about fats and that issue).

 

[Guzzler]

What nonsense! This in vitro and it is Greger. Need I say more?

 

[bulkbiker]

Wow multiple myths encapsulated in one last hurrah..

 

[HSSS]

Being new to the scientific studies around all things diabetic maybe a little more would be helpful.

Greger is obviously anti sat fats and I understand in vitro doesn’t necessarily translate. And I also fully understand many studies have inherent faults and bias. But it can be hard to discover these unless reading research papers is second nature and you are well versed in the subject matter.

I hate to swallow these things whole and want to understand the results properly and in context, hence seeking a bit of a shortcut by asking in here for directions to that information from those of you well read on the studies.

 

[HSSS]

Yes it does seem to contradict the position I’ve taken thus far in this journey

 

[bulkbiker]

Greger is a vegan prophet (and I use that description advisedly). He has form for misrepresenting things and some of the statements he makes in that article and neither proven nor likely to ever be proven.
Myth number one
"Diets rich in saturated fats not only cause obesity and insulin resistance" He is claiming that they cause which is completely unproven in any study ever... causation is very rare association is as far as most will go.

He then gets a bit more correct
"may also cause beta cell death and may thus contribute to the progressive beta cell loss we see in type 2 diabetes."
The may is because he cannot prove what he is saying...

"You can kill pancreatic cells right in a petri dish." I'm sure you can but to say that is what happens in the body is a completely false analogy and again unprovable as we cannot even measure beta cell life at the moment in the living.

"The fats found predominantly in meat and dairy—chicken and cheese are the two main sources in the American diet—are considered nearly “universally toxic.” "
So foods that we have eaten for millennia are "universally toxic" so that's why we have survived so long....?

Do I need to say more.. the whole piece is written to further the vegan agenda.

 

[BloodThirsty]

What nonsense! This in vitro and it is Greger. Need I say more?

Denise Minger says it all:
https://www.healthline.com/nutrition/how-not-to-die-review

 

[HSSS]

Thank you both. I knew someone would send me in the right direction.

This is a minefield isn’t it? So we need to find the actual study, check it for flaws and selective sampling etc, compare it to other studies for consistency. Check if it does in fact prove the point being claimed at all. Then see how cherry picked those quotes are from the study.

I couldn’t t even find links to the sources he was talking about (a red alert in itself I guess). I have found news articles often cherry pick the actual studies for headline worthy quotes and ignore the very important qualifiers. There should be something in professional standards to prevent health professionals so clearly and wilfully misrepresenting such things. Or enforced if they do exist. (And unicorns roamed freely)

 

[bulkbiker]

This is a minefield isn’t it? So we need to find the actual study, check it for flaws and selective sampling etc, compare it to other studies for consistency. Check if it does in fact prove the point being claimed at all. Then see how cherry picked those quotes are from the study.

In a nutshell yes..sorry

Edit to add.. news reports on the study usually misrepresent what the study says too.. so all the "possibles" and "maybes" sometimes get turned into "will do" this and that..

 

[Resurgam]

I think that some people truly and sincerely believe they have a message from a higher power than themselves to get people to become vegetarian/vegan by any means possible, even if it is a lie or two, as it for the greater good.

 

[HSSS]

I think that some people truly and sincerely believe they have a message from a higher power than themselves to get people to become vegetarian/vegan by any means possible, even if it is a lie or two, as it for the greater good.

Waitrose editor William Sitwell would have agreed with you last week

 

[Guzzler]

Denise Minger says it all:
https://www.healthline.com/nutrition/how-not-to-die-review

Thank you, I have read this but it's certainly worth a reread for later. Greger will take a fact and twist it out of context until it is unrecognisable.

 

[Guzzler]

The more you learn the easier it becomes. One of the first things we learn after how to read food labels and how to use a glucometer is that Type 2 Diabetes is a condition of hyperinsulinaemia plus Insulin Resistance.
We then learn which of the three macros raises our blood glucose levels the most/least. Fats have an almost neglible insulin response so how on earth could hyperinsulinaemia or Insulin Resistance be caused by fats?

Bearing this in mind, when someone makes bold claims against fats (and taking into account Greger is speaking of a particular type of fat SAFA which as you know is a constituent part of Olive Oil and I wonder if he ever makes this clear in his publications) being a direct cause one has to question the logic and scrutinise the piece.

In vitro studies are interesting at best but let's be clear about this, they do sometimes lead to rodent studies but cannot in any way be interpreted as being proof of what happens in vivo.

 

[bulkbiker]

Waitrose editor William Sitwell would have agreed with you last week

You might find this one fun...

 

[Tannith]

Prof Taylor of Newcastle University has proved with his magic scanner that fat on the pancreas kills and damages beta cells in live humans. If they lose that fat by dieting they can reverse their diabetes by reviving the beta cells that were just sick rather than had died. This was not about the type of fat that people were eating but the fat they were wearing. It was also about overfeeding rather than saturated fat specifically.

"Professor Roy Taylor at Newcastle University, UK has spent almost four decades studying the condition and will present an overview of his findings at the European Association For The Study Of Diabetes (EASD 2017) in Lisbon.

In the talk he will be highlighting how his research has revealed that for people with Type 2 diabetes:

• Excess calories leads to excess fat in the liver
• As a result, the liver responds poorly to insulin and produces too much glucose
• Excess fat in the liver is passed on to the pancreas, causing the insulin producing cells to fail
• Losing less than 1 gram of fat from the pancreas through diet can re-start the normal production of insulin, reversing Type 2 diabetes
• This reversal of diabetes remains possible for at least 10 years after the onset of the condition

“I think the real importance of this work is for the patients themselves,” Professor Taylor says. “Many have described to me how embarking on the low calorie diet has been the only option to prevent what they thought – or had been told – was an inevitable decline into further medication and further ill health because of their diabetes. By studying the underlying mechanisms we have been able to demonstrate the simplicity of type 2 diabetes.”

Get rid of the fat and reverse Type 2 diabetes

The body of research by Professor Roy Taylor now confirms his Twin Cycle Hypothesis – that Type 2 diabetes is caused by excess fat actually within both liver and pancreas.

This causes the liver to respond poorly to insulin. As insulin controls the normal process of making glucose, the liver then produces too much glucose. Simultaneously, excess fat in the liver increases the normal process of export of fat to all tissues. In the pancreas, this excess fat causes the insulin producing cells to fail. http://www.ncl.ac.uk/press/articles/archive/2017/09/type2diabetesisreversible/

 

[Oldvatr]

I think that some people truly and sincerely believe they have a message from a higher power than themselves to get people to become vegetarian/vegan by any means possible, even if it is a lie or two, as it for the greater good.

I came across a couple of photos on a WFPB website that Greger is known to favour, and they showed some of the dignitaries behind WFPB at a conference, and another photo that showed the current Board of the Seventh Day Adventists. The two photos showed the same people. I think this is the Higher Authority.

In the past I have found that the source of scientific evidence that the WFPB guys use is a study called ADVENT 2, which turns out to have been funded and conducted by the Seventh Day Adventists to prove that their stance on lifestyle and diet was proven, and this study has since been thoroughly debunked as being selective etc.

 

[DavidGrahamJones]

Another Apple news thread. https://apple.news/ALtadcYLWTBiK6BqXlEBNjQ

An autopsy is a post-mortem, so after death, that much I do know.

I only got as far as reading "Autopsy studies show that by the time type 2 diabetes is diagnosed, we may have already killed off half of our beta cells."

Surely an autopsy can only show what beta cells have been killed off by the time of death and not at some point before. I like the way he uses the word "may". I would have thought an autopsy was a bit more definite.

 

[bulkbiker]

Prof Taylor of Newcastle University has proved with his magic scanner that fat on the pancreas kills and damages beta cells in live humans.

I really don't think he has..or that he claims that.. he says that fat on the pancreas can impair insulin responses

"Substantial weight loss results in reduced fat inside the liver and pancreas, allowing these organs to return to normal function"

He doesn't say anything about saturated fat being causal for Type 2 diabetes.

You do like to misrepresent what other people say.. I have no idea why..

 

[Guzzler]

I came across a couple of photos on a WFPB website that Greger is known to favour, and they showed some of the dignitaries behind WFPB at a conference, and another photo that showed the current Board of the Seventh Day Adventists. The two photos showed the same people. I think this is the Higher Authority.

In the past I have found that the source of scientific evidence that the WFPB guys use is a study called ADVENT 2, which turns out to have been funded and conducted by the Seventh Day Adventists to prove that their stance on lifestyle and diet was proven, and this study has since been thoroughly debunked as being selective etc.

Per Seventh Dayers, the Bible contradicts itself right left and centre, it is the ultimate cherry picking source.

 

[kokhongw]

Just for completeness, this is their views on Ketones...
https://www.masteringdiabetes.org/what-are-ketones/

• Ketones are manufactured by your liver as a backup fuel source for your brain to protect against brain starvation on a low-carbohydrate diet.
• Your brain is biologically designed to oxidize glucose for the majority of your life, and can adapt to burning ketones when glucose is limited.
• Low-carbohydrate diets (including the ketogenic diet) increase your risk for heart disease, high cholesterol, insulin resistance, prediabetes, type 2 diabetes, atherosclerosis, heart attacks, and stroke.
• Even though a ketogenic diet can flatline your blood glucose, low-carbohydrate diets (including the ketogenic diet) significantly increase your risk for premature death.

Good for all to learn to separate the wheat from the chaff...