Saturated fats and type 2

[bulkbiker]

that article links to a study using sodium palmitiate - which is found in olives too. Yet the writer of the linked article says olives are good for us and not saturated. Confused or what?

There does seem to be a lot of confusion about fats generally and where we get sat fat from in particular. Scientists make that mistake as often as regular people which I find kind of worrying especially when they are writing about nutrition...

 

[Bluetit1802]

Olive oil is 15% saturated fat

https://www.diabetes.co.uk/forum/attachments/upload_2017-12-26_14-14-31-png.24798/

 

[Tannith]

But but but.. the studies that underly your paper were all on people who were still eating a significant portion (45-50%) of their diet as carbohydrate. We all know that high fat and high carb intake is extremely unhealthy so it looks like the paper is reporting "eat a diet likely to induce Type 2 diabetes and hey presto your insulin resistance will go up"... well no s**t Sherlock.. That is exactly what I would expect to happen.

I'm also afraid to let you know that there are zero foods that are composed of only monounsaturated and polyunsaturated fats. All foods with fat are composed of varying elements of the three fat types so it is in fact impossible to eat no saturated fat unless of course you wish to die. As we all know there are essential fats and protein but no essential carbs.

That as well as the very valid points that @Guzzler has made above I'm afraid means I'll carry on with my sat fat (and mono and poly) based diet thanks.

I hope however that your own personal regime is still performing as you hoped.

Edit to add here's a piece from Dr Zoe Harcombe explaining fats.
http://www.zoeharcombe.com/2018/01/saturated-fat/

But but but.. the studies that underly your paper were all on people who were still eating a significant portion (45-50%) of their diet as carbohydrate. We all know that high fat and high carb intake is extremely unhealthy so it looks like the paper is reporting "eat a diet likely to induce Type 2 diabetes and hey presto your insulin resistance will go up"... well no s**t Sherlock.. That is exactly what I would expect to happen.

I'm also afraid to let you know that there are zero foods that are composed of only monounsaturated and polyunsaturated fats. All foods with fat are composed of varying elements of the three fat types so it is in fact impossible to eat no saturated fat unless of course you wish to die. As we all know there are essential fats and protein but no essential carbs.

That as well as the very valid points that @Guzzler has made above I'm afraid means I'll carry on with my sat fat (and mono and poly) based diet thanks.

I hope however that your own personal regime is still performing as you hoped.

Edit to add here's a piece from Dr Zoe Harcombe explaining fats.
http://www.zoeharcombe.com/2018/01/saturated-fat/

Thank you, my BGs are normal and my weight has stayed down ( gone further down actually). I would never be a vegan - I wouldn't find their diet palatable and I'm not a big fan of bunny rabbits. But they have an almost zero rate of T2 so they must be doing something right. Perhaps its the almost entire lack of saturated fat in their diet. I don't think we should be too quick to scorn them.

 

[Hotpepper20000]

Thank you, my BGs are normal and my weight has stayed down ( gone further down actually). I would never be a vegan - I wouldn't find their diet palatable and I'm not a big fan of bunny rabbits. But they have an almost zero rate of T2 so they must be doing something right. Perhaps its the almost entire lack of saturated fat in their diet. I don't think we should be too quick to scorn them.

Bunnies have a completely different digestive system. They also have to eat their own poop in order to be healthy . So I’ll pass

 

[bulkbiker]

But they have an almost zero rate of T2 so they must be doing something right.

Not sure that is 100% correct either we have a few vegan members on the forum.. however a whole lot of them seem to have quite a few other health problems such as rotten teeth, hair loss quite a few seem to have quite severe mental health problems (maybe down to Vit B12 deficiency?) and a whole load more seem to end up following the carnivore way of eating to heal themselves.
Glad to hear you are doing well post ND. You should update us a bit more often.... whilst I have made my views on ND very clear it's always good to hear of someone who has had success following it.
As for sat fat I'm thriving on it along with mono and poly of course.

 

[bulkbiker]

Bunnies have a completely different digestive system. They also have to eat their own poop in order to be healthy . So I’ll pass

Is that a self induced fecal transplant?

 

[Hotpepper20000]

I laugh when people refer to eating like a rabbit.

http://www.vetstreet.com/our-pet-experts/why-does-my-rabbit-eat-his-poop

 

[Boo1979]

Not sure that is 100% correct either we have a few vegan members on the forum.. however a whole lot of them seem to have quite a few other health problems such as rotten teeth, hair loss quite a few seem to have quite severe mental health problems (maybe down to Vit B12 deficiency?) and a whole load more seem to end up following the carnivore way of eating to heal themselves..

I have to say that the way you have written this makes it sound a tad judgnental of, and insulting to, other forum members

 

[bulkbiker]

I have to say that the way you have written this sounds a tad judgnental of, and insulting to, other forum members

Where do I say all vegans? Your own prejudice is showing.
I have however in my extended travels around the net noticed a lot of what I say.. And even this morning I was chatting to a dietician who had to agree that most vegan diets will need the correct supplements to be healthy. If these supplements are included then it should be fine. If not then they can be dangerous especially to children and the elderly (who are probably the least likely to understand the need to supplement or what to have).

Edit to add I'm sure that vegan members here are perfectly aware of the extra things they need as we are more aware of what we eat than 95% of the general population.

 

[Boo1979]

Where do I say all vegans? Your own prejudice is showing.
I have however in my extended travels around the net noticed a lot of what I say.. And even this morning I was chatting to a dietician who had to agree that most vegan diets will need the correct supplements to be healthy. If these supplements are included then it should be fine. If not then they can be dangerous especially to children and the elderly (who are probably the least likely to understand the need to supplement or what to have).

Edit to add I'm sure that vegan members here are perfectly aware of the extra things they need as we are more aware of what we eat than 95% of the general population.

Read what you wrote
“ we have a few vegan members on the forum.. however a whole lot of them seem to have quite a few other health problems such as rotten teeth, hair loss quite a few seemto have quite severe mental health problems“
Fyi I am not vegan and have no particular views re the diet, I was simply commenting on the way what you wrote comes across

 

[bulkbiker]

Read what you wrote
“ we have a few vegan members on the forum.. however a whole lot of them seem to have quite a few other health problems such as rotten teeth, hair loss quite a few seemto have quite severe mental health problems“
Fyi I am not vegan and have no particular views re the diet, I was simply commenting on the way what you wrote comes across

OK I agree that was badly worded.. I meant vegans in general rather than forum members obviously. So apologies to any vegan members to whom I may have caused offence.. clumsy on my part mea culpa.

 

[Oldvatr]

The reason I keep banging on about Newcastle is that we know that if you get the fat off the pancreas soon enough, while the beta cells are just moribund and have not yet "differentiated" permanently, the beta cells can be restored to their original function again. But there is only a limited window of opportunity.This varies between people (possibly depending on how fat they are, and how sensitive their beta cells are to fat but certainly on how long they have had T2). After that, losing the pancreatic fat won't help. I hope to give people on here the heads up before they reach the point where their beta cells could no longer recover whatever they do.
https://www.endocrineweb.com/profes...-beta-cells-getting-closer-reversing-diabetes
Even though many questions remain, Dr. Taylor expressed certainty of that the timing is right for endocrinologists and primary care practitioners to take a more aggressive approach with regard to weight managed in their patients—more urgently in those who are newly diagnosed with type 2—to emphasize the urgency to lose the excess weight immediately.
Despite the initial effect of diet and oral therapy to lower glucose, observational studies have shown that disease progression is associated with inexorably declining β-cell function and progression to insulin commencement, with relatively minor changes in underlying insulin resistance.

Taylor et al have produced credible evidence that insulin response can be restored through dietary means. They have demonstrated in the process that fat cells around the liver and pancreas is reduced substantially. They have also shown that these changes can be maintained past the dietary period, so although a maintenance lifestyle is advised, it is not essential to maintain the severity of the diet phase, unlike Low Carb. For this we are grateful.

BUT they have not demonstrated or proven that this is due to moribund beta cells being revived ftom the brink of apoptosis. The statement you quoted just now is simply that - a statement expressing their thoughts but is NOT a statement of Fact. It is a Hypothesis or Lemma that may spawn further research studies, but not a fait accompli in itself. For example, does the diet work in the same way for T1D in honeymoon phase? No studies yet.

 

[Oldvatr]

That is sometimes dependant on exactly when you are diagnosed and does not address the question of those for whom weight gain was not a symptom and may have been insulin resistant for decades.
By this premise I should be quite able to put back on all the weight I lost quite safely, no? Because I was carrying no extra weight on diagnosis and this was by HCPs/NICE etc guidelines.

What makes me slightly sceptical about ND is that it is fundamentally a restricted calorie diet and these diets have been around for for donkeys, the only difference is that ND is led by doctors but the basic tenet is the same as WW or SW. It was hailed as a 'breakthrough' but I think it may die a slow death just as those that have gone before it.

The difference is in the use of MRI scans etc to show how the test subjects bodies changed while on the diet, and in controlling diet input and measuring diabetic outcome so that a direct link has been demonstrated. WW etc are simply weight loss operations, ND was specifically linked to diabetes as a controlled experiment by qualified personnel, not commercial companies testing their own products.

 

[Guzzler]

The difference is in the use of MRI scans etc to show how the test subjects bodies changed while on the diet, and in controlling diet input and measuring diabetic outcome so that a direct link has been demonstrated. WW etc are simply weight loss operations, ND was specifically linked to diabetes as a controlled experiment by qualified personnel, not commercial companies testing their own products.

To listen to WW it is a sure fire, quick, sustainable weightloss regime. Meanwhile, in the real world...

 

[kokhongw]

If insulin resistance is primarily cause by chronic excessive insulin, then saturated fats and lack of activity are unlikely to be the key driver. That is why we have marathon runners, ultra-athletes like Timothy Noakes and Sammi Inkinen (VirtaHealth CEO) developing pre-diabetes. Exercise is unable to overcome insulin resistance caused by carb loading.

Focusing on saturated fats for T2D is simply misdirecting the efforts in glucose control. Removing whole food groups i.e. fatty meat, that can be well leveraged to provide better glucose control and vascular health. Dr Joseph Kraft had been trying to point out for 40 years that hyperinsulinemia is the main issue for vascular disease.
https://denversdietdoctor.com/diabetes-vascular-disease-joseph-r-kraft-md/

Low fats diet can be effective...but given the current dismal T2D remission rates after decades of pursuing this path, it suggest that it is either not working for the masses or as its supporters would rather believe, people are not following it. We are cheating on low fat diet not that it is not working.

But time and again on this forum alone, we can see that a higher fat diet (irregardless of composition) has had remarkable sustainable success for glucose control. The undisputed glucose flatlining. So the arguments have now been shifted to the purported risks of CVD due to saturated fats.

Given the known benefits of normal glucose/insulin levels vs chronically elevated glucose/excessive insulin levels, I am still placing my bet on flatlining glucose.

 

[bulkbiker]

Bit of a lightweight observational self selected study but interesting results all the same?

https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article/file?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0088278&type=printable

reported in the Independent today.. is the Indy coming out as pro meat I wonder to counter the Guardian's vegetarian/vegan agenda..

 

[Oldvatr]

Bit of a lightweight observational self selected study but interesting results all the same?

https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article/file?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0088278&type=printable

reported in the Independent today.. is the Indy coming out as pro meat I wonder to counter the Guardian's vegetarian/vegan agenda..

Interesting but not conclusive IMO. Seems to bear up the experience I have observed but that is only an opinion. I have not been able to read and digest their findings, but they do have a good section giving limitations to their findings, which is a novelty. As you say lightweight, and a meta study on observational data.

 

[Boo1979]

“ Potential limitations of our results are due to the fact that the survey was based on cross-sectional data. Therefore, no statements can be made whether the poorer health in vegetarians in our study is caused by their dietary habit or if they consume this form of diet due to their poorer health status. We cannot state whether a causal relationship exists, but describe ascertained associations. “

 

[Boo1979]

Bit of a lightweight observational self selected study but interesting results all the same?

https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article/file?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0088278&type=printable

reported in the Independent today.. is the Indy coming out as pro meat I wonder to counter the Guardian's vegetarian/vegan agenda..

Interesting take on the Guardian!
If you look at todays food section, you will find 1 vegan recipe among others using chorizo & salmon as their main ingredients together with a selection of curry, Sri Lankan recipes some of which are vegetarian others meat based
Now, the 4 sections giving recipes for biscuits I do find rather troublesome - maybe the Guardian really has a major “ Biscuit agenda”

 

[Oldvatr]

I see CAMRA has now gone fully vegan. All their beers have to use vegan compatible processes. All food in CAMRA recommended pubs must be vegan including the pasties and pies.

November 1 was International Vegan Day since 1884 when veganism was officially born. It was originally started apparently to prevent the murder of animals, but does not take into account the culling of species that would follow if veganism does indeed dominate the world.