Problem at work

[hh1]

I agree with @Fairygodmother, that we're losing sight of @Allan4acre's daughter. From his posts I understand that 'the bistro' is a workplace restaurant. I expect to be able to inject discreetly in any restaurant, though most especially in the workplace because of an employer's duty of care to employees (UK law, can't speak for anywhere else). If there's an objection, that needs to be validated with good reasons and I don't anticipate the concerns raised by @kitedoc in a staff restaurant. In over 30 years of injecting at all kinds of times and in all kinds of places I've never had a needle stick injury - or injured anyone else. I agree we need consideration on all sides, and that the issue here is how to help @Allan4acre's daughter. In a nutshell, it's not acceptable to be told to inject in the toilet, and because of the DDA (again, UK law) I believe she should be allowed to inject at the table so long as she does so discreetly or warns people who may not wish to see, if there's a possibility if there's a possibility they might.

 

[KK123]

I have read this post avidly and I must say I am somewhat saddened by some of the replies, they almost sound like they have been made by understandably ignorant people without diabetes. The question, to my mind was about a perfectly natural desire to eat where other people eat, stand in a queue where other people stand, sit at a table where other people sit and get on with my lunch. Is that really such a challenge? Does a person have to go to a toilet to inject (not suggested by any of us of course), should they 'take a packed lunch' to avoid the dilemma completely, maybe they can sit in the toilet WITH their packed lunch. Do we really need to take seriously the chance that we might get 'jostled' and accidently stab someone therefore we're better off in a room of our own under the threat of being sued because we should have known what might happen! We are NOT children running around with a pair of scissors, in fact every diabetic I know is of the respectful, discreet kind who if they knew someone in their company hated needles, would go to great lengths to go elsewhere.
I think the emphasis here is wrong, Allen4acres daughter has an action that she must carry out to be healthy, she should not be being told 'you can't do this and that here' but being helped to do what she NEEDS to do. For that I would love to know why she cannot do it in the bistro, if there is a genuine reason, let's hear it. I suspect it is because other people may not like what it looks like (as if this lady is planning on cartwheeling up the table whilst injecting simultaneously).
My advice is to find out precisely why first of all, then you can determine whether that reason is reasonable (!). Following that I would ask for this 'ban' in writing, they must be prepared to stand by their rationale (would they 'segregate' a person with any other 'disability' issue from the canteen?, I doubt it. Having said all of that, I am one of the most respectful people out in public, I will not hide what I am BUT I will be discreet, courteous, polite in all that I do, I won't throw buns at people and I won't be made to feel second class. People need to be educated on things like this and to do that there needs to be open discussions where the end result isn't to 'go away and do it somewhere else'.

 

[KK123]

@evilclive, You are trying to quote the experience of all those using pen injections without having a clue what those statistics are. Good one !! I am not doubting that many do take care but accidents can happen and accidents can often be prevented.
Perhaps you have never had to manage and care for a person who has been on the pointy end of a sharps injury.
I have a number of times and it is not pretty unless a negative result comes back may be 3 months later
The risk for sharps injury in public will depend on the circumstances, it is relative, which is why I mentioned a busy bistro type scene, even more risk if there is a party or group dinner going on, people drinking alcohol and so on. The amount of care and the discretion and management strategies is proportional to the relative risk.
You may also recall a news report about a child being injured by aa apparently discarded finger-prick lancet the child found on the floor of a family restaurant. It is not just the pointy end of a pen injection device to consider. So yes, it can happen and did happen in UK just as it happens all over the world. And what if someone takes your pen device out of your hand unexpectedly in a busy place????? Who knows what a person on drugs might do ??
Interesting point made by @Chowie about the possibility that anyone seen giving themselves an injection might to labelled as a drug user. And even where one has taken measures to be circumspect that circumspect behaviour may draw attention. And it takes longer for someone on an insulin pump to change over a cartridge of insulin, fill tubing, and insert a new cannula than it does to dial up and give an insulin injection via pen device. The longer the 'exposure' the more risk of being spotted.
For those reasons I carry a letter from my doctor , ready for airport security and police, which states that I am diabetic and that removal of my insulin pump 'could prove lethal' to me. I also carry a MedicAlert bracelet with "Type 1 diabetes" imprinted on the metal - so if someone gets ugly about my injecting i happily tell them that I am diabetic but that they can go ahead and ring the police.
My other concerns are that giving myself an injection might attract the interest of a drug user or a pickpocket. For that reason, when going out I move my insulin pump from my belt to a carry pouch or neck wallet located around my neck and under the opposite arm, under my shirt. Having my insulin pump and spare supplies stolen a distance from home could be a potential disaster. Similarly spare pump disposables, insulin (suitably wrapped and protected), syringes/needles are carried in my backpack, and my pockets (and better still with the pump in the neck wallet or in the neck wallet on the other side with my wallet). A spare empty strips container with my gluco-meter could be used for sharps.
That way even if my backpack was stolen I would still have supplies.
We are all responsible for our own behaviour but need to take into account the potential behaviour of others, particularly children, those who may be embittered, angry, jealous, clumsy, oblivious of others, fatigued, depressed or agitated, drug or alcohol affected and, of course, the behaviour of pets.

Hmmmm, I think you're more at risk of getting a coffee spilled over you than get jabbed with a needle, not to say it can't happen but far less likely.

 

[KK123]

I agree with @Fairygodmother, that we're losing sight of @Allan4acre's daughter. From his posts I understand that 'the bistro' is a workplace restaurant. I expect to be able to inject discreetly in any restaurant, though most especially in the workplace because of an employer's duty of care to employees (UK law, can't speak for anywhere else). If there's an objection, that needs to be validated with good reasons and I don't anticipate the concerns raised by @kitedoc in a staff restaurant. In over 30 years of injecting at all kinds of times and in all kinds of places I've never had a needle stick injury - or injured anyone else. I agree we need consideration on all sides, and that the issue here is how to help @Allan4acre's daughter. In a nutshell, it's not acceptable to be told to inject in the toilet, and because of the DDA (again, UK law) I believe she should be allowed to inject at the table so long as she does so discreetly or warns people who may not wish to see, if there's a possibility if there's a possibility they might.

I agree hh1, and they'd have to be particularly nosy to even notice what you were doing, least of all care. If it's anything like my canteen, the focus is firmly on the grub.

 

[Circuspony]

About a decade before I was diagnosed I worked with a T1d colleague who would always inject at the table in the staff canteen. It was subtle (stomach) & most of the time no one noticed. We would never have dreamed of telling him he couldn't. Personally I think that's ridiculous.

Our needles are tiny. Mine stays on the pen until I can remove it later so no one is at risk of injury.

If i was ever in a situation where an employer was being difficult I'd try to find out why. Usually it's ignorance of what T1d actually entails. If they still carried on being difficult then they'd need a clear picture of the DDA. Testing and injecting is unavoidable.

 

[kitedoc]

Hi @Circuspony, just think about the sensibilities and differences between a man and a woman pulling up a shirt/blouse to inject.
And you quite rightly minimise the risk of needle stick with your technique but there is always some risk no matter how small of needle stick - Pen needles, lancets, draw-up needles to fill pump cartridges at times of use and if not properly disposed of.

 

[evilclive]

Hi @Circuspony, just think about the sensibilities and differences between a man and a woman pulling up a shirt/blouse to inject.of.

Right, thought about it, no difference, no problem.

It's a tummy, routinely exposed in athletic wear among other things, this isn't a big deal. I'm amazed that you think it is - we've moved on from Victorian times, and we don't live in a repressive religious state.

If you're concerned about a couple of square inches of tummy being accidentally seen, presumably you're going to throw a fit at the idea of breastfeeding in public - https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-australia-39853360. Oh look, on your side of the world...

And you quite rightly minimise the risk of needle stick with your technique but there is always some risk no matter how small of needle stick

Remember there was a discussion on health and safety a few weeks back, and I mentioned I work for people who take it very seriously indeed? Taking H+S seriously does not mean banning everything, contrary to what many people think - it also means allowing things which people are unnecessarily scared of. See the HSE Myth of the Month for examples. And here's a pertinent one : http://www.hse.gov.uk/myth/jun10.htm - That's HSE saying it's ok for children to be trusted with sharp things, so an adult will be allowed to make sensible decisions with pen needles, not only expose them in an isolated environment in the way you seem to want.

You mentioned statistics earlier - do you have any useful ones to do with people managing their own pens yet sticking others, which is what we're talking about here? There have been problems with pens left unattended with needles in (fairly obvious risk, trivial to control by ensuring needle is removed), and also with needles being removed by a second party after injection, eg a health care professional. There don't seem to be problems with random people being stuck between the needle being screwed on, the injection and the removal of the needle, which is the problem you're unnecessarily trying to address.

FWIW you mention pump cartridge filling needles - I might be more careful with those and want to do it in a quiet place. But they're not designed to be the use-anywhere device a pen is - the effort has been put into insulin pen and needle design to allow it to be used in public by making it a lot easier and safer to use then vials and syringes.

 

[kitedoc]

Our opinion of what is considered OK or not in public regarding exposure of 'flesh' is not the same as considering the range of opinion about such exposure. Different cultures, backgrounds etc define people's expectations, moral values etc. We are not a homogenous whole.
Similarly with breast feeding in public, many accept but you cannot force such a spectacle on everyone.
Yes, people can look away and that is fine but each of us has a right to not be imposed upon. If you consider work place harassment or embarrassment for example, the reaction and concern of the person who feels harassed or embarrassed in what is considered. That includes those who faint at the sight of needles and have not been warned about what might be happening before they accidentally see it.
The point about sharp things in children's hands is not just about their sharpness, it is also about something sharp possibly carrying an infectious agent. You do not offer children drawing pins dipped in someone's blood for pinning the donkey's tail in the vacuous belief that no harm could possibly befall such children or that the risk is 'minimal'.
As for statistics: see healthmanagement.org Health Management Vol 14 Issue 4 2014 Needle Stick Injury Prevention in the Diabetes Setting Dr K. Strauss.
You say," There does not seem to be problems with random people being stuck with between the needle...". 'Seem' is a very unscientific term which is similar to taking a personal guess. Have you statistics for this 'seeming' or is this part of a tautology?
And it would be naive to assume that improvement in the safety features of injection, lancet and other devices has eliminated the risk of NSI. There is always the human factor to consider.

 

[evilclive]

Our opinion of what is considered OK or not in public regarding exposure of 'flesh' is not the same as considering the range of opinion about such exposure. Different cultures, backgrounds etc define people's expectations, moral values etc. We are not a homogenous whole.
Similarly with breast feeding in public, many accept but you cannot force such a spectacle on everyone.

The OP is in the UK. We're not a repressive religious state, so our culture is fine with the idea of that little bit of flesh, and indeed quite alot more.

You're in Australia. Australia isn't a repressive religious state either, and I was quite impressed that my quick google for a breastfeeding politician found one in your parliament from last year. We've not managed to get that far yet.

If we're talking repressive places, then I would agree it would be sensible to be a little careful about the flesh thing. But since we weren't talking about them, I think you're just making up nonsense again.

Re the sharps - there's an interesting bit from the paper you cite : "By May 2013, the EU Directive will make it compulsory to use safety devices in all situations, where there is significant risk of sharps injury and infection"

That's 5 years now. Guess what - normal self injection still doesn't have compulsory safety devices. That's because there isn't a significant risk of sharps injury and infection for that case (*).

Your paper makes my point for me

(* the problems are when injecting other people. Hospital, clinic, nursing home, etc. Sticking yourself with a needle isn't nearly as dangerous as sticking another person, and the risks of sticking are to do with handling, not randomly stabbing nearby people.)

 

[Circuspony]

Hi @Circuspony, just think about the sensibilities and differences between a man and a woman pulling up a shirt/blouse to inject.
And you quite rightly minimise the risk of needle stick with your technique but there is always some risk no matter how small of needle stick - Pen needles, lancets, draw-up needles to fill pump cartridges at times of use and if not properly disposed of.

I'm female. I rarely think about the differences and just crack on with my life saving injections.

 

[Jaylee]

Guys? Enough.

I would hate do do a hatchet job on your carefully constructed "debates" on the matter...

Cheers!

 

[kitedoc]

The OP is in the UK. We're not a repressive religious state, so our culture is fine with the idea of that little bit of flesh, and indeed quite alot more.

You're in Australia. Australia isn't a repressive religious state either, and I was quite impressed that my quick google for a breastfeeding politician found one in your parliament from last year. We've not managed to get that far yet.

If we're talking repressive places, then I would agree it would be sensible to be a little careful about the flesh thing. But since we weren't talking about them, I think you're just making up nonsense again.

Re the sharps - there's an interesting bit from the paper you cite : "By May 2013, the EU Directive will make it compulsory to use safety devices in all situations, where there is significant risk of sharps injury and infection"

That's 5 years now. Guess what - normal self injection still doesn't have compulsory safety devices. That's because there isn't a significant risk of sharps injury and infection for that case (*).

Your paper makes my point for me

(* the problems are when injecting other people. Hospital, clinic, nursing home, etc. Sticking yourself with a needle isn't nearly as dangerous as sticking another person, and the risks of sticking are to do with handling, not randomly stabbing nearby people.)

You cannot speak for all cultures in either UK or Australia. Your opinions are personal biases unless backed up by proof.
Do you have data to show whether 'protective devices' since 2013 have made any difference to needle stick injury rates?
The article refers to the fact that NSI rates are highest in diabetics. And it is statistically proven that recapping of needles is the most common cause of NSI.
It is naive to think that if one has a virus which can be spread by say a needle stick that needle sticking oneself by accident carries no risk. Every piercing/injection of skin carries some risk from skin borne bacteria and there are more potentially nasty ones on one's hands than on one's the abdomen. And in crowded places the risk of contamination of the needle increases.
So that you can gain some better insight, how many people reuse their needles for subsequent injections??

 

[Member496333]

Let’s be honest here though. The reason this is even a debate has little to do with health and safety. If infection were a reasonable concern then we’d all be walking around in hazmat suits to avoid getting a cold. The real issue here is people needing to be offended by something so that they can demand other people make accommodations for them.

Only in my opinion of course

 

[Brunneria]

OK, enough.

@Jaylee kindly put a warning shot across everyone's bows asking for the nitpicking to stop.
It didn't, despite his very polite request.
In future, such posts will be deleted.

If anyone wishes to start a thread discussing health and safety with sharps, in countries with different cultural expectations, then they are, of course, welcome to do so, but that discussion won't continue on this thread.

If anyone has any helpful suggestions for the OP's daughter, then of course they continue to be welcome.

 

[KK123]

To the OP, if you're reading all of this, please remember many of the comments are from individuals and not indicative of the whole. Please tell your daughter to resist against being told to do her injection elsewhere, they cannot enforce this. If you come back to this post, I would love to know how the conversation even came about between the Head and your daughter about 'where we will allow you to inject'. Was she given a list of rules? The majority of us are with your daughter every step of the way, she has enough to cope with as it is without being made to feel an outcast or a nuisance. x

 

[dancer]

@Allan4acre your daughter certainly isn't making a fuss about nothing. I only had a quick look back to find out who had told her to use the toilet but couldn't find it. I can't see it being the head teacher, as they should know better. Was it another promoted member of staff? A little Hitler?

I would continue testing and injecting as usual and if further comment was made, I would point out the discrimination aspect and suggest that THEY arrange for your daughter to get a copy of each day's menu and THEY inform her of the accurate carbohydrate content of her choice of meal and THEY arrange that her choice is delivered to canteen staff, so that she can take the appropriate number of units of insulin for the hot meal that THEY will make sure is waiting for her.

"They" presumably don't know how much effort we have to put into looking after ourselves. If they can't provide a convenient alternative, your daughter should continue as she's been doing.