Problem at work

[mahola]

Hi @Allan4acre, Your daughter does not need to always eat everything on the plate. She can decide how much she wishes to eat in terms of carbs and protein if she counts that as well. Then inject for that.
The only issue really is if she wishes to allow for a very slowly absorbed meal such as an Indian curry ect in which she might elect to have a percentage at meal time and another 5 of her dose later.
Thinking outside the square, could she not enquire the day before what is on the menu ?
There is no need to be so picky.
Another issue with injecting at the table is about safely disposing of sharps without risk to others.

Picky?! Are you joking? Please tell me you are.

What if she was to choose a meal, bolus accordingly then get to the cafeteria and there's none left?

Dispose of sharps in a used test strip pot. There are ways and means around everything.

Edited by Mod

 

[kitedoc]

Kitedoc, with all due respect, that's a pretty unhelpful reply. "There is no need to be so picky" is just wrong.

There's many cases where I won't know till the food is in front of me, or even tasted, how much I'm going to eat and hence how much I'm going to need to inject.

Re safely disposing of sharps - is it a long time since you had pen needles? They're trivial to safely handle temporarily - I put mine in my pocket after folding the bit which sticks into the vial down, or back in the pot I took the new one from, in both cases to dispose of safely later.

Hi @evilclive, There are ways for her to solve her issues as I have suggested. As long as she is not inclined to think a bit laterally she will be stuck.

 

[kitedoc]

Picky?! Are you joking? Please tell me you are.

What if she was to choose a meal, bolus accordingly then get to the cafeteria and there's none left?

Dispose of sharps in a used test strip pot. There are ways and means around everything.

Edited by Mod

Yes there are ways to solve things and I have given some. As long as someone does not think about the problem and ways around it the problem remains.

 

[evilclive]

Hi @evilclive, There are ways for her to solve her issues as I have suggested. As long as she is not inclined to think a bit laterally she will be stuck.

That's simply not the case. Looking for avoidance strategies and suggesting that she is at fault for not doing so ("picky") is not a good long term tactic. With appropriate help, eg calling on the experience of others, or even involving the union, it should be possible to carry on testing in public and injecting with meals like the rest of us do, which is the best outcome.

No comment on your claim that sharps disposal will be a problem?

 

[kitedoc]

That's simply not the case. Looking for avoidance strategies and suggesting that she is at fault for not doing so ("picky") is not a good long term tactic. With appropriate help, eg calling on the experience of others, or even involving the union, it should be possible to carry on testing in public and injecting with meals like the rest of us do, which is the best outcome.

No comment on your claim that sharps disposal will be a problem?

I am talking specifically about the before meal insulin which seemed to be the issue once the other part was clarified,

 

[Jaylee]

Thanks.
This is a message I got from my daughter this morning......

The problem isn't that they aren't offering me a place to do it, it's that they aren't allowing me to do it with my food in the bistro - so excluding me from eating with the others, UNLESS I do it in advance of going in, so I would have to do my insulin without my food in front of me, and guess the amount to give, because I wouldn't be able to see the amount of carbs on my plate. Which I'm not happy with. I could take a packed lunch but that's inconveniencing me, and saying I can't do the same as anyone else. So......I don't know if I'm just making a big fuss about nothing???

Hi @Allan4acre ,

This kind of sounds like a missunderstanding on on the diabetic routine involved with testing & bolusing for a meal put before the diabetic, before accessment to the correct insulin dosage to compensate..(in laymans terms.)
Have there been any complaints/grievances "flagged up" to this headteacher from other staff members regarding your daughter's daily routine.

I work in a totally different sector these days... However, I once worked in "support" to education. (It can be tricky.) but not insurmountable....

Would your daughter be willing to sign up here.,? Even if just for this topic?

 

[kitedoc]

The other way to think outside the square, is for her take her own lunch in each working day.

 

[kitedoc]

I have said this in other threads: from my experience as a diabetes, not as professional advice or opinion:
1) injecting insulin is a medical procedure. Telling someone to go to the loo to inject their injection shows a distinct lack of education on the part of the persons giving the order as well as a large deficit in understanding the sensibilities of the situation..
It sounds like a mandatory education session with the headmaster and staff could help educate all to a better sense of what is required, including about recognition and treatment of hypos. Maybe someone from Diabetes UK etc etc.
2) medical procedures are not carried out in the loo unless they are unavoidable emergencies.
3) if the attitude of the headmaster does not change, then in addition to the laws protecting staff, the question is: why is the sick bay not located in the toilet area?
4) injecting insulin at a communal eating table, bistro etc requires discretion and great care and is best avoided. Some people, including 2 of my relatives, faint at the sight of someone giving themselves an injection. And the issue about sharps is not only about having a safe place to store them after the injection, it is about the possibility of being jostled in a busy bistro, lunchroom etc during injecting and that leading to a needle stick injury - a very serious safety risk. And an insurance company is likely to say that injecting in a busy bistro carries a fore-seeable risk of needle stick injury.
One could argue that in a quiet restaurant that the person turning in their seat towards a wall nearby and injecting that way lowers the risk but it is still better to be to have a designated area (such as the law provides) where an injection can be carried out discretely and with much less risk.
I am not in agreeance with any diabetic stating that they can inject their insulin where and how they wish, as though that is their right.
5) living with diabetes is about problem-solving and not being so restricted in thinking and acting that problems arise and escalate. hence my comment about thinking outside the square, and not making problems for oneself.
So recognise silly statements for what they are: such as you have to eat the very moment after you inject your insulin or that you have to eat everything on the plate (is that where the dumb idea called the Eatwell plate comes from or visa versa))?, that you cannot take your own lunch in or that to eat things that are best avoided you just push up the insulin dose and expect that to work.

 

[evilclive]

I have said this in other threads: from my experience as a diabetes, not as professional advice or opinion:
1) injecting insulin is a medical procedure. Telling someone to go to the loo to inject their injection shows a distinct lack of education on the part of the persons giving the order as well as a large deficit in understanding the sensibilities of the situation..
It sounds like a mandatory education session with the headmaster and staff could help educate all to a better sense of what is required, including about recognition and treatment of hypos. Maybe someone from Diabetes UK etc etc.
2) medical procedures are not carried out in the loo unless they are unavoidable emergencies.
3) if the attitude of the headmaster does not change, then in addition to the laws protecting staff, the question is: why is the sick bay not located in the toilet area?
4) injecting insulin at a communal eating table, bistro etc requires discretion and great care and is best avoided. Some people, including 2 of my relatives, faint at the sight of someone giving themselves an injection. And the issue about sharps is not only about having a safe place to store them after the injection, it is about the possibility of being jostled in a busy bistro, lunchroom etc during injecting and that leading to a needle stick injury - a very serious safety risk. And an insurance company is likely to say that injecting in a busy bistro carries a fore-seeable risk of needle stick injury.
One could argue that in a quiet restaurant that the person turning in their seat towards a wall nearby and injecting that way lowers the risk but it is still better to be to have a designated area (such as the law provides) where an injection can be carried out discretely and with much less risk.
I am not in agreeance with any diabetic stating that they can inject their insulin where and how they wish, as though that is their right.
5) living with diabetes is about problem-solving and not being so restricted in thinking and acting that problems arise and escalate. hence my comment about thinking outside the square, and not making problems for oneself.
So recognise silly statements for what they are: such as you have to eat the very moment after you inject your insulin or that you have to eat everything on the plate (is that where the dumb idea called the Eatwell plate comes from or visa versa))?, that you cannot take your own lunch in or that to eat things that are best avoided you just push up the insulin dose and expect that to work.

I'm happy with 1, 2 and 3. I disagree with 4, and I suspect we'll never agree on that. I'm discreet with injections, so most people never notice, and re sharps - I've never had a problem with being jostled while injecting, and no insurance company is going to specify diabetic-specific conditions for an eating area, that's just scaremongering. 5 I sort of agree with, though probably not for the reasons you think. Injecting based on what's on your plate and you're going to eat is a normal thing to do - changing food for a given insulin dose is the wrong way round, change insulin dose to match food. And I'll happily push an insulin dose up for things people would say are best avoided - sticky toffee pudding anybody? Like you say, outside the box : don't be restricted by what people like the headteacher or other people trying to say you can't do things say.

(one thought - both you and Chowie are from the Antipodes, and both have concerns about injecting in public. I wonder if there's a cultural difference going on - I think the UK people on here are generally on the inject-and-be-damned side, and it might be that people generally don't worry about it here)

 

[Bluey1]

In Australia many jobs I have applied for they ask Do you have a disability? If so what? There are laws that protect you against discriminatin (cough cough). Unless the employer is trying to get public sympthay etc (we need a few people in wheel chairs etc), if 2 people are about the same or even if the disabled person interviews slighty better they will miss out on the job.

An interesting point, those that wish to claim the protection undert the disability act, do you declare before you get the job that you have a disability?

My brother faints at the sight of blood and there are plenty like him.
Some people a needle phobic.
Many people associate injections outside a medical environment with illicit drugs. I know most diabetics use pens, however when ever you see a photo in the media and a syringe is shown, it’s a diabetic syringe and unfortunately illicit drug users syringe of choice is the orange capped 100 unit diabetic syringe.

Before I got D I used to work with a guy with T2. He had the office running around in circles after him, when he actually made it into work and he had no other illness. We were glad when he didn’t come in as there was always a big drama.

Many of those people are now in positions where they employ people, I can assure you they will NEVER employ a diabetic and if I didn’t know any better nor would I. I’m not ashamed of being diabetic and my mission is to prove to employers that diabetics are some of the best workers whom don’t create a fuss or upset the serenity of the workplace. They don’t take a lot of sick days and unless you were told you wouldn’ know they had any illness.

If you want to be treated like an able bodied person you must act like one. When I used to inject (I’m now on a pump) when out, or with visitors I would inject in private and that means loos when not at home. You can’t be special needs one minute and then be normal the next. I think we need to get rid of T1, T2 etc and turn it into disabled diabetic and those diabetics that can have a normal life. We object to be prevented from doing jobs and there are now very few jobs we can’t do, lets not spoil that.

 

[kitedoc]

I'm happy with 1, 2 and 3. I disagree with 4, and I suspect we'll never agree on that. I'm discreet with injections, so most people never notice, and re sharps - I've never had a problem with being jostled while injecting, and no insurance company is going to specify diabetic-specific conditions for an eating area, that's just scaremongering. 5 I sort of agree with, though probably not for the reasons you think. Injecting based on what's on your plate and you're going to eat is a normal thing to do - changing food for a given insulin dose is the wrong way round, change insulin dose to match food. And I'll happily push an insulin dose up for things people would say are best avoided - sticky toffee pudding anybody? Like you say, outside the box : don't be restricted by what people like the headteacher or other people trying to say you can't do things say.

(one thought - both you and Chowie are from the Antipodes, and both have concerns about injecting in public. I wonder if there's a cultural difference going on - I think the UK people on here are generally on the inject-and-be-damned side, and it might be that people generally don't worry about it here)

With 4) I say all diabetics injecting insulin have a responsibility towards public health which includes minimising the risk of needle stick injury and achieving safe disposal of sharps. Those responsibilities outweigh individual rights. Most people may not notice someone giving themselves an injection but if blatantly done that does nothing for the majority of diabetics who are trying to be discrete and careful.
Just because a needle stick injury has not occurred when you have ben injecting your insulin does not prove that it cannot happen. Do you have any idea the anguish people who sustain such an injury go through, waiting to know whether they have contacted some infectious illness? And just because we can say, no way do we diabetics have any infectious illnesses, those suffering a sharps injury do not know that and quite frankly neither do we, for absolute sure until all the tests are completed.
If injury or accident like a sharps injury are foreseeable the onus is on each injector to take steps to minimise the possibility of that injury happening. Our individual rights are subsumed by the rights of us not to suffer harm.
No, we do not have to be sealed in a sterilised room in order to inject or provided with a security screen to avoid upsetting others BUT we have to give a **** about those around us.
And 5) most of us are not out eating at bistros etc all the time. Many of us stick to a diet which keeps our BSL and weight under control and that can mean not eating everything on a plate where we have had no control over the food being provided.
Those of us who are still in honeymoon phase have more leeway of course but it is naive to think that upping insulin to allow for sticky toffee pudding every day is going to necessarily work and not all of us have the opportunity and ability to burn the excess BSL off with exercise.
Weight control is important and scoffing everything on the plate plus desserts is not the way to happy BSLs.
We can of course ask for a fruit platter or cheese instead of the sticky pudding where the eating place has the flexibility.
I made comment about the headteacher and how silly orders can be turned around, I show in the sentence just above how to obtain some control over what is presented at the bistro, including about reducing the risk of high BSLs, weight gain (not to mention the possibility of upping insulin too much and going hypo). Knowing ahead of time what the menu is and planning around that was mentioned in an earlier post. What is not needed is some mantra about having to inject just before or as the meal arrives or after. Yes, some are taught that but is it really necessary ?- are there not ways to manage that such as starting with a piece of fruit, a glass of orange juice etc.?
Nothing different in Australia but we value privacy, giving people a fair go and not only offending others except when it is a matter of safety.

 

[evilclive]

In Australia many jobs I have applied for they ask Do you have a disability? If so what? There are laws that protect you against discriminatin (cough cough). Unless the employer is trying to get public sympthay etc (we need a few people in wheel chairs etc), if 2 people are about the same or even if the disabled person interviews slighty better they will miss out on the job.

An interesting point, those that wish to claim the protection undert the disability act, do you declare before you get the job that you have a disability?

Interesting thoughts re discrimination. In my environment, it's genuinely never been an issue. Diabetes has been mentioned on one of the work discussion groups, and not an eyelid raised - it's just seen as a thing that some people have. Though the libre raises a nerdy interest - people like the idea of semi-cyborgism

I've done one other job interview since being diagnosed, and the diabetes was a non-issue. "Anything else we might need to know" "I've got T1D" "Ok" is roughly how that part of the conversation went. When I've needed to do diabetes-related things, I've just done them. Sometimes there's some interest, and I'll talk about it. But never adverse reactions. For the bigger things like doctors visits, I've always had flexible enough workplaces that it's not been an issue - there's always been the understanding that they just need to happen. There's been no need to invoke the DDA stick - indeed the DDA would generally get mentioned from above rather than being pushed from below.

 

[evilclive]

With 4) I say all diabetics injecting insulin have a responsibility towards public health which includes minimising the risk of needle stick injury and achieving safe disposal of sharps. Those responsibilities outweigh individual rights. Most people may not notice someone giving themselves an injection but if blatantly done that does nothing for the majority of diabetics who are trying to be discrete and careful.
Just because a needle stick injury has not occurred when you have ben injecting your insulin does not prove that it cannot happen. Do you have any idea the anguish people who sustain such an injury go through, waiting to know whether they have contacted some infectious illness? And just because we can say, no way do we diabetics have any infectious illnesses, those suffering a sharps injury do not know that and quite frankly neither do we, for absolute sure until all the tests are completed.
If injury or accident like a sharps injury are foreseeable the onus is on each injector to take steps to minimise the possibility of that injury happening. Our individual rights are subsumed by the rights of us not to suffer harm.
No, we do not have to be sealed in a sterilised room in order to inject or provided with a security screen to avoid upsetting others BUT we have to give a **** about those around us.

Sorry, that's just a load of scaremongering tosh. It's very easy to give a **** about those around us, and that doesn't necessitate injecting somewhere else. Dealing with the sharp pointy things is easy - take enough care and it's fine, and with pen needles, especially the short ones we're using these days, the amount of care required is really quite low.

You've put yourself into a corner, and now you're coming up with ever more ridiculous arguments to support your position. Step back, consider that those of us still using the pens every day might have an idea of what we're doing and have the experience to back that up. Literally tens of thousands of injections each - that's a lot of experience.

 

[evilclive]

And 5) most of us are not out eating at bistros etc all the time. Many of us stick to a diet which keeps our BSL and weight under control and that can mean not eating everything on a plate where we have had no control over the food being provided.
Those of us who are still in honeymoon phase have more leeway of course but it is naive to think that upping insulin to allow for sticky toffee pudding every day is going to necessarily work and not all of us have the opportunity and ability to burn the excess BSL off with exercise.
Weight control is important and scoffing everything on the plate plus desserts is not the way to happy BSLs.
We can of course ask for a fruit platter or cheese instead of the sticky pudding where the eating place has the flexibility.

This deserves a separate response.

Who said anything about upping insulin to allow for sticky toffee pudding every day? Who said anything about overeating all the time?

But if we want, we can do it sometimes - that's part of Normal Eating. I don't want that fruit platter, I want that pudding, and I have the tools at my disposal to allow me to have it.

And well done - you've managed to bring a discussion about workplace problems while injecting round to worrying about the weight implications of what we eat. That's an impressive irrelevance.

 

[Japes]

Only needlestick injuries caused by me have been to myself and the table... "The table's not human, Japes." pointed out my giggling students when I explained why I was taking off the needle and starting again.

If, by happy chance, I ever got to working with insulin-dependent students again, I'd do my injection at the same time as them, in the same medical room place (and knowing our students, they'd love it - they already ask me about my numbers on a regular basis when we meet up) and we could queue-jump together. With my current batch who don't have a queue jump card and with whom I have to wait in the queue (which can be 20 minutes on a bad day, and is way over my pre-bolus time with the additional walk down a long campus from the rooms where I work - so closer to half an hour), I got so close to hypo one day as I'd pre-bolused too far ahead none of us are prepared to risk that again. I can only be glad that day that Main Colleague who knows my symptoms spotted what was happening, grabbed my meal tray, sent a student to the drinks machine for a can of Coke and sent me to sit down. I think me keeling over from a hypo would've caused more difficulty than me discreetly injecting under the table.

I teach Health and Safety as part of the course to students with disabilities. Together, we thought through all the possible difficulties of me injecting at the table, they inspected all the precautions in place for me keeping my insulin and used needles safe in a bag which is on me at all times in the canteen. They don't see why I should miss out on eating in the canteen with them on a once a week basis, and would consider me discriminated against if I couldn't. Plus, as one of them pointed out, why should I miss out on my free meal if we've done the appropriate risk assessments and everyone is satisfied. Including the senior management teams, medical, and health and safety bods at work who were impressed at all my thinking outside the box. "Japes, do you ever miss an opportunity for using anything as a teaching point?!?!"

As everyone's diabetes is different, everyone's approach to doing this is different.

 

[kitedoc]

Sorry, that's just a load of scaremongering tosh. It's very easy to give a **** about those around us, and that doesn't necessitate injecting somewhere else. Dealing with the sharp pointy things is easy - take enough care and it's fine, and with pen needles, especially the short ones we're using these days, the amount of care required is really quite low.

You've put yourself into a corner, and now you're coming up with ever more ridiculous arguments to support your position. Step back, consider that those of us still using the pens every day might have an idea of what we're doing and have the experience to back that up. Literally tens of thousands of injections each - that's a lot of experience.

@evilclive, You are trying to quote the experience of all those using pen injections without having a clue what those statistics are. Good one !! I am not doubting that many do take care but accidents can happen and accidents can often be prevented.
Perhaps you have never had to manage and care for a person who has been on the pointy end of a sharps injury.
I have a number of times and it is not pretty unless a negative result comes back may be 3 months later
The risk for sharps injury in public will depend on the circumstances, it is relative, which is why I mentioned a busy bistro type scene, even more risk if there is a party or group dinner going on, people drinking alcohol and so on. The amount of care and the discretion and management strategies is proportional to the relative risk.
You may also recall a news report about a child being injured by aa apparently discarded finger-prick lancet the child found on the floor of a family restaurant. It is not just the pointy end of a pen injection device to consider. So yes, it can happen and did happen in UK just as it happens all over the world. And what if someone takes your pen device out of your hand unexpectedly in a busy place????? Who knows what a person on drugs might do ??
Interesting point made by @Chowie about the possibility that anyone seen giving themselves an injection might to labelled as a drug user. And even where one has taken measures to be circumspect that circumspect behaviour may draw attention. And it takes longer for someone on an insulin pump to change over a cartridge of insulin, fill tubing, and insert a new cannula than it does to dial up and give an insulin injection via pen device. The longer the 'exposure' the more risk of being spotted.
For those reasons I carry a letter from my doctor , ready for airport security and police, which states that I am diabetic and that removal of my insulin pump 'could prove lethal' to me. I also carry a MedicAlert bracelet with "Type 1 diabetes" imprinted on the metal - so if someone gets ugly about my injecting i happily tell them that I am diabetic but that they can go ahead and ring the police.
My other concerns are that giving myself an injection might attract the interest of a drug user or a pickpocket. For that reason, when going out I move my insulin pump from my belt to a carry pouch or neck wallet located around my neck and under the opposite arm, under my shirt. Having my insulin pump and spare supplies stolen a distance from home could be a potential disaster. Similarly spare pump disposables, insulin (suitably wrapped and protected), syringes/needles are carried in my backpack, and my pockets (and better still with the pump in the neck wallet or in the neck wallet on the other side with my wallet). A spare empty strips container with my gluco-meter could be used for sharps.
That way even if my backpack was stolen I would still have supplies.
We are all responsible for our own behaviour but need to take into account the potential behaviour of others, particularly children, those who may be embittered, angry, jealous, clumsy, oblivious of others, fatigued, depressed or agitated, drug or alcohol affected and, of course, the behaviour of pets.

 

[Member496333]

I don’t have a horse in this race, but in my view people should be tolerant of others.

If a diabetic needs to test or inject, then they should do so. If anyone is offended then they can be offended. It won’t hurt them, and they’re not likely to get stabbed.

 

[kitedoc]

I don’t have a horse in this race, but in my view people should be tolerant of others.

If a diabetic needs to test or inject, then they should do so. If anyone is offended then they can be offended. It won’t hurt them, and they’re not likely to get stabbed.

I am just asking for due consideration on both sides.

 

[Member496333]

I am just asking for due consideration on both sides.

Yeah that’s fine (not that you need my permission)

Nothing wrong with open, civil discussion. Just throwing my view into the mix. I think people are too offended at being offended these days. Compounded my the media feeding people negativity, but that’s a general view on society as a whole

 

[Fairygodmother]

I think we’re beginning to lose sight of the @Allan4acre’s daughter. @Japes has shown her reality of being T1D in a U.K. school and has made it clear that sensible dialogue with all concerned is more than productive.
I wonder if there’s anyone watching Allan4acre’s daughter’s back like Japes’ Main Colleague.
Reading between the lines of Allan4acre’s daughter’s words it seems that tensions are rising. This isn’t all that surprising at the end of a long term but maybe it’s time for a deep breath, a calm discussion with the Head, or HR, (she should take someone with her who can take notes and keep calm too), so that the problem can be solved without destructive confrontations.