Type 1 Liver

[SueJB]

If, as we know, the liver happily does a dump in the morning and helps the body fire up the engines, why doesn't it do the same during the day when you haven't eaten, aren't hungry but it knows that the body might well do with a bit if a boost?
Structurally, this question is far too long but hoping you get the gist.

 

[caius2x8]

If, as we know, the liver happily does a dump in the morning and helps the body fire up the engines, why doesn't it do the same during the day when you haven't eaten, aren't hungry but it knows that the body might well do with a bit if a boost?
Structurally, this question is far too long but hoping you get the gist.

Diurnal cycling regulates lotto hormonal processes. Cortisone, a hormone which desensitises us to insulin, dips at ~3am and 3pm restoring sensitivity to insulin at those times ( i've with no cortisone i am 3x as sensitive to insulin or at least have reduced my insulin to 1/3 the normal level to avoid hypos) and so potentially lower blood sugars, insulin levels depending. In addition even without hypos, low levels of cortisone give a feeling of tiredness. An absence of cortisone makes exhausted in an absolute sense in addition to other effects. At 3pm people in general feel a post lunch tiredness and may put it down to digestion but i'd guess its in part down to lower cortisone levels. At 3am there's no eating. Hence the risk of night hypos. An advantage of cortisone cycling is that too high a level in the blood stream over night can disturb sleep. Thus its falling and rising seems helpful for the standard day shift.

 

[Member496333]

It does (or should). Otherwise we would die if we didn't eat for 24h.

Normally, glucagon (also under the influence of cortisol and probably others) should keep the liver dripping glucose into the bloodstream. This is of course assuming functioning alpha cells and no glucagon dysfunction. Not sure the implications with type 1 per se.

 

[KK123]

If, as we know, the liver happily does a dump in the morning and helps the body fire up the engines, why doesn't it do the same during the day when you haven't eaten, aren't hungry but it knows that the body might well do with a bit if a boost?
Structurally, this question is far too long but hoping you get the gist.

Hi Sue, it does though doesn't it? Isn't that one reason why we have to take basal to counteract these 'dumps' in between meals, ie whilst the body is fasting? It doesn't seem as extreme as the morning dump (forgive the phrase!) but I wonder if that is because the body is inert during the night and needs a stronger boost just before it leaps into action.

 

[SueJB]

Diurnal cycling regulates lotto hormonal processes. Cortisone, a hormone which desensitises us to insulin, dips at ~3am and 3pm restoring sensitivity to insulin at those times ( i've with no cortisone i am 3x as sensitive to insulin or at least have reduced my insulin to 1/3 the normal level to avoid hypos) and so potentially lower blood sugars, insulin levels depending. In addition even without hypos, low levels of cortisone give a feeling of tiredness. An absence of cortisone makes exhausted in an absolute sense in addition to other effects. At 3pm people in general feel a post lunch tiredness and may put it down to digestion but i'd guess its in part down to lower cortisone levels. At 3am there's no eating. Hence the risk of night hypos. An advantage of cortisone cycling is that too high a level in the blood stream over night can disturb sleep. Thus its falling and rising seems helpful for the standard day shift.

Thanks but I've no idea what this means @caius2x8 as the language is too dense. Can you explain to someone who is not in the medical profession please?

 

[SueJB]

It does (or should). Otherwise we would die if we didn't eat for 24h.

Normally, glucagon (also under the influence of cortisol and probably others) should keep the liver dripping glucose into the bloodstream. This is of course assuming functioning alpha cells and no glucagon dysfunction. Not sure the implications with type 1 per se.

OK thanks for the input @Jim Lahey but no idea what that means, no idea about alpha cells nor glucagon dysfunction and if it is relevant to all diabetics and if it's relevant to T1

 

[Member496333]

Hi Sue, it does though doesn't it? Isn't that one reason why we have to take basal to counteract these 'dumps' in between meals, ie whilst the body is fasting?

Yes. The default fasting state in a [healthy] human is glucagon instructing the liver to release glucose. Insulin mops up any excess (basal for T1), especially after eating (bolus for T1). There are many hormones and mechanisms involved, of course, but my understanding is that these all act upon the pancreas, which in turn uses glucagon and insulin as direct glucose regulators. I'm very certain it isn't that simple, especially where metabolic derangement is at play, but that is the nuts & bolts of it for healthy individuals.

 

[SueJB]

Hi Sue, it does though doesn't it? Isn't that one reason why we have to take basal to counteract these 'dumps' in between meals, ie whilst the body is fasting? It doesn't seem as extreme as the morning dump (forgive the phrase!) but I wonder if that is because the body is inert during the night and needs a stronger boost just before it leaps into action.

@KK123 to be honest, I don't know. That's why I was asking. Still don't know. If you could rely on Monsieur Foie to do the biz consistently, we wouldn't need insulin.

 

[Member496333]

OK thanks for the input @Jim Lahey but no idea what that means, no idea about alpha cells nor glucagon dysfunction and if it is relevant to all diabetics and if it's relevant to T1

Pancreatic alpha cells are responsible for manufacturing glucagon, the hormone that makes the liver* secrete glucose. It's my understanding that the alpha cells still function in a type 1 pancreas, which is why you have to inject basal to cover/balance the fasting metabolic state.

*EDITED: to fix typo from pancreas!

 

[KK123]

@KK123 to be honest, I don't know. That's why I was asking. Still don't know. If you could rely on Monsieur Foie to do the biz consistently, we wouldn't need insulin.

I have read an absolute stack on the metabolism of the diabetic and although a lot is understandable it is also very complicated! Also of course, the same thing happens to every human being and I found it helpful to read about a body's responses to exercise/food/stress etc because our bodies follow the same pathway (even though some have little flaws)!!

(PS, who's Monsieur Foie?? ).

 

[DCUKMod]

@SueJB - I can have liver dumps at any time of the day or night, if my bloods go a bit too low. I don't fuss about it, but I know when it's happening.

There was a thread eons ago about liver dump signs, and mine is a slightly peculiar feeling in my throat. It's not unpleasant, but it's definitely a thing.

To be clear, I'm not T1, so wouldn't like to do any more than describe my own experience, and maybe suggest you search for the thread I mention. I'd be fibbing if I said I could recall who started it.

 

[Jaylee]

(PS, who's Monsieur Foie?? ).

Pet name for the pancreas.. "Mr fool?"

 

[Listlad]

If, as we know, the liver happily does a dump in the morning and helps the body fire up the engines, why doesn't it do the same during the day when you haven't eaten, aren't hungry but it knows that the body might well do with a bit if a boost?
Structurally, this question is far too long but hoping you get the gist.

We need to get a button fitted so that we can fire up at a time of day of our choosing.

 

[Jaylee]

We need to get a button fitted so that we can fire up at a time of day of our choosing.

There is a device.

It's called an alarm clock. Ready to fire me up on any given work day morning..

 

[SueJB]

Pancreatic alpha cells are responsible for manufacturing glucagon, the hormone that makes the liver* secrete glucose. It's my understanding that the alpha cells still function in a type 1 pancreas, which is why you have to inject basal to cover/balance the fasting metabolic state.

*EDITED: to fix typo from pancreas!

Thanks for the clarification @Jim Lahey and the relevance to my question about the liver is?

 

[SueJB]

I have read an absolute stack on the metabolism of the diabetic and although a lot is understandable it is also very complicated! Also of course, the same thing happens to every human being and I found it helpful to read about a body's responses to exercise/food/stress etc because our bodies follow the same pathway (even though some have little flaws)!!

(PS, who's Monsieur Foie?? ).

@KK123 True but why doesn't Monsieur Foie dump throughout the day to make up for the shortfall?
Foie Gras?

 

[SueJB]

Pet name for the pancreas.. "Mr fool?"

Non je suis desole, not the pancreas.
Foie gras

 

[Jaylee]

@KK123 True but why doesn't Monsieur Foie dump throughout the day to make up for the shortfall?
Foie Gras?

Hi,

Is there any chance you could ease back of the personal colloquialisms please..?

Non je suis desole, not the pancreas.
Foie gras

Not all of us speak fluent French..

"Fattened goose?"

Mercy buckets ..

 

[Member496333]

Thanks for the clarification @Jim Lahey and the relevance to my question about the liver is?

The liver releases glucose into the bloodstream when fasting. Fasting being not eating.

 

[Listlad]

Foie gras - liver