2 days in and it's very confusing!

[ajbod]

When i came out of hospital, post femoral artery bypass. Having fasted for best part of 4 days, my daughter went to Mcdonalds as she couldn't be bothered to cook, i had 2 Double cheeseburgers, and ditched the bun. Heavenly.

 

[Lakeslover]

Going back to doner meat. Jd seasonings available on line sell a seasoning to make doner meat, it has a recipe on the pack and is very easy to do. https://jdseasonings.com/product/doner-kebab/

 

[retrogamer]

When i came out of hospital, post femoral artery bypass. Having fasted for best part of 4 days, my daughter went to Mcdonalds as she couldn't be bothered to cook, i had 2 Double cheeseburgers, and ditched the bun. Heavenly.

I can see that working!

Lol

 

[Antje77]

I can see that working!

View attachment 63426

Lol

Halloumi for buns?
Now there's a thought!

 

[Lupf]

whilst I agree with intermittent fasting I’d not suggest this from the starting gate, it’s often just too much too fast for the mind and emotions to keep up with let alone the physical effects including the potential effect on eyes if the drop in bgl is big and fast enough. It’s enough to switch to low carb foods in the early days. Once you’ve got to grips with that reduced feeding events (less snacking/fewer meals) often happen naturally and easily due to the more filling nature of the foods. And even if it’s a deliberate choice it’s so much easier once you’ve got used to having the more filling meals when you do eat.

@HSSS I don't think we should argue for one method over the other. All I say, is what worked for me. When I read the book from Michael Mosley on 5+2, I realised that I can do intermittent fasting (IF) and so I did. At that time I started using test strips and was very happy when both my blood sugar values and my weight started falling, and that this was confirmed by the following HbA1c tests. My cholesterol values also have come down. Just like the LCHF diet, IF is sustainable, because it is rooted in the human evolution. When our ancestors didn't succeed in hunting, they went hungry and started fat burning. Being in remission for most of 4 years is great and cycling is much more fun without a spare tyre around my belly.

That said I would never argue against going low carb. IMHO all we can do here is tell our stories and let people make up their own mind on how to proceed. It doesn't matter if we reduce our HbA1c by lowering carbs and replacing these with healthy fat and protein or by IF.

 

[HSSS]

@HSSS I don't think we should argue for one method over the other. All I say, is what worked for me. When I read the book from Michael Mosley on 5+2, I realised that I can do intermittent fasting (IF) and so I did. At that time I started using test strips and was very happy when both my blood sugar values and my weight started falling, and that this was confirmed by the following HbA1c tests. My cholesterol values also have come down. Just like the LCHF diet, IF is sustainable, because it is rooted in the human evolution. When our ancestors didn't succeed in hunting, they went hungry and started fat burning. Being in remission for most of 4 years is great and cycling is much more fun without a spare tyre around my belly.

That said I would never argue against going low carb. IMHO all we can do here is tell our stories and let people make up their own mind on how to proceed. It doesn't matter if we reduce our HbA1c by lowering carbs and replacing these with healthy fat and protein or by IF.

I’ll say again I’m not against IF.

My point was going straight to it from diagnosis can be a very challenging idea for some and for many cutting the junk, cutting the snacks, focussing on nutrient dense food FIRST makes IF much easier to do SECOND. In effect I was trying to make it more likely to be attempted and successful rather than the opposite.

For others like yourself who aren’t daunted by the idea, then go for it (subject to doing a bit of reading and checking for contradictions like other illnesses or medications that don’t mix well with it etc). I leapt straight into keto rather than step the carbs down bit by bit. It worked for me. For others it’s to fast and sudden and reducing carbs a step at at time is more manageable. My concern wasn’t about raising the option or highlighting your success - as both are great things for someone to know is a possibility. It was concern about overloading and frightening newbies with something that feels impossible at the stage they are at right now. I appreciate you only said “consider it”. I always try to remember to point out keto might be the goal but it doesn’t have to happen immediately and doing it progressively might make it more achievable for them. In this situation a similar caveat might be beneficial too.

 

[Lupf]

I’ll say again I’m not against IF.

My point was going straight to it from diagnosis can be a very challenging idea for some and for many cutting the junk, cutting the snacks, focussing on nutrient dense food FIRST makes IF much easier to do SECOND. In effect I was trying to make it more likely to be attempted and successful rather than the opposite.

I didn't say that you said you are against IF.
I also agree with you that first one should go for the low hanging fruits, like cutting fizzy drinks (I went cold turkey), stop or reduce snacking, even remove most processed food (I banned anything low fat).

But your are ranking and saying that IF is more challenging than LCHF. This might the case for many, but for others including myself, it is the other way round. in fact I am not sure I could have done ditching pasta and bread for ever. IF is quite amazing, I started IF before I joined this forum and then realised it I also lowered my carb intake substantially on non-fast days.

 

[HSSS]

you said I was arguing for one method over another. I wasn’t. I was talking about what - for most - makes IF easier, for biological reasons. I also said if a person thinks for them it’s the way to go, eg an exception like you, then do so.

If you are eating nutrient dense food that isn’t sending digestive hormones all over the place and isn’t stimulating appetite it’s easier to go longer between meals whilst simultaneously reducing blood glucose. People talk about this experience a lot in here. You just said that that is where you also ended up - doing both lower carb and IF together. I’m just trying to help people succeed more easily or at least be aware of what might be their barriers and how to get around them. This isn’t an attack or criticism of you or IF, just the tactic many find works for them.

 

[Lupf]

Don't worry, I am not taking this personal, far from it. I hope you are also just seeing this as a discussion where two people have different points of view. My main point is I don't know of any studies that back up your claim that IF is more challenging than LCHF. I am definitely not an exception. From an evolutionary point of view, it is likely the other way round. Humans survived by being able to fast for extended periods, essentially IF, when food was scarce. And until very recently, i.e. less than a century ago, there was no continuous abundance of food and if a large source of carbs became available, we feasted on carbs, e.g. at harvest festivals.

In my honest view, the problem we are facing is that today's sudden (on evolutionary time scale) abundance of food is causing rates of obesity and diabetes to go through the roof. There are people like Samoans, for which in the time span of less two generations (< 50 years), T2 rates went from less than 5% to 30%, see https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5411261/

 

[HSSS]

Don't worry, I am not taking this personal, far from it. I hope you are also just seeing this as a discussion where two people have different points of view. My main point is I don't know of any studies that back up your claim that IF is more challenging than LCHF. I am definitely not an exception. From an evolutionary point of view, it is likely the other way round. Humans survived by being able to fast for extended periods, essentially IF, when food was scarce. And until very recently, i.e. less than a century ago, there was no continuous abundance of food and if a large source of carbs became available, we feasted on carbs, e.g. at harvest festivals.

In my honest view, the problem we are facing is that today's sudden (on evolutionary time scale) abundance of food is causing rates of obesity and diabetes to go through the roof. There are people like Samoans, for which in the time span of less two generations (< 50 years), T2 rates went from less than 5% to 30%, see https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5411261/

I don’t even see we are disagreeing about methods. Nor have I said IF is more challenging than LC. I’ve said IF is often easier if already LCHF than if you are still higher carb. Nothing to say IF isnt a good idea in and of itself, nor that it is impossible done without low carb. You are reading more into it than I’m saying.

In the last 5 yrs I’ve seen a lot of people in here, and on other groups, find that IF happens naturally and easily once low carb is established even when they never thought it possible or when they’ve struggled to do similar in the past on a higher carb diet. And that is all I was saying.

Humans in the context of your first example probably were a lot lower carb inherently and a lot more metabolically flexible. A century ago we were not eating processed foods which we now do in huge quantities, excessive omega 6 inflammatory oils, and the carbs were mostly a lot more complex as well as we were physically more active in our everyday lives.

edit I think this is in danger of derailing a newbie thread and potentially overwhelming them even more. Can I suggest if you want to continue to defend your position (unnecessarily imo) you start a new thread for this discussion.

 

[ajbod]

Our ancestors until quite recently, ate only "whole" food, unadulterated, no added sugar. And probably most important, attained almost entirely from close to home, where their ancestors evolved. Nowadays, we move well away from our ancestral homelands, and the food we eat has come from all over the world, grown in different soils, where the vitamin and mineral content probably varies. Often stuff they would have eaten, but out of season. Intermittent fasting is normal, and a part of our evolution. 3 square meals a day is a relatively modern thing. Also many of the modern staples, bear no resemblance to what they naturally were, due to agricultural interbreeding of species and breeds, and cross pollination to alter plants characteristics.

 

[aylalake]

Halloumi for buns?
Now there's a thought!

Oooooo! Definitely going to give that a try!

 

[aylalake]

edit I think this is in danger of derailing a newbie thread and potentially overwhelming them even more. Can I suggest if you want to continue to defend your position (unnecessarily imo) you start a new thread for this discussion.

Thank you! I will admit the way this originally very interesting thread turned into a toe-to-toe has made me feel uncomfortable.