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A little experiment......

Scandi - my comments about rice could have been clearer. The style of rice I choose to eat will, almost without fail, not be plain boiled rice. It will have been cooked in a liquid with some oiliness - e.g., the paella in chicken stock, but with the chorizo oil sweated from it before adding the rice and stock. I think that makes a difference.

To be fair, my portion size is also smaller than it would have been in the old life. Indeed, this was something my OH and I were discussing yesterday as I ditched some leftovers.

As an alternative, in terms of accompaniments, have you tried the cauliflower rice? I liked it, but it didn't cut it for my OH.

It's all a game, and there are no common rules.
 
AndBreathe said:
Scandi - my comments about rice could have been clearer. The style of rice I choose to eat will, almost without fail, not be plain boiled rice. It will have been cooked in a liquid with some oiliness - e.g., the paella in chicken stock, but with the chorizo oil sweated from it before adding the rice and stock. I think that makes a difference.

To be fair, my portion size is also smaller than it would have been in the old life. Indeed, this was something my OH and I were discussing yesterday as I ditched some leftovers.

As an alternative, in terms of accompaniments, have you tried the cauliflower rice? I liked it, but it didn't cut it for my OH.

It's all a game, and there are no common rules.
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No I get it. Do you eat bread? If so which kind? Does naan have any effect? I think it's my brain trying to break some of the associations like curry with rice or naan. Used to eat a lot of rice - risottos, paellas in pre diabetic days. Find whole thing bizarre.
 
Scandi, how many carbs are you eating daily at the moment, and how many did you eat the day you had the rice? This is a very important factor in deciding whether it was the rice that caused you to spike, or the extra carb intake over normal. It could well have been the rice, but it could also have had the same effect with any other extra carb whether it be bread, pasta, fruit or veg carbs etc. Your body is only producing enough insulin to deal with your current normal carb intake, so when you suddenly increased that intake at one meal there would not have been enough insulin to deal with it. It takes a few days for your body to realise it needs to produce more insulin to cover the additional carbs.
 
Scandichic said:
The argument is that I should eat more carbs.
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There should be no "argument" since the human body does not need glucose, fructose or galactose to be present in the diet at all. This is rather basic biology (AFAIK this holds for all mammals).

Meat or fish and veg or salad do not do this to me. If bs had gone up by +2 then fine but by +3.9 is telling me to leave this food out of my diet. If you are saying that I would need to get used to it and or increase my metformin. Then I don't want to eat it. I don't want to pop pills so I can eat "normally". My goal is to lose weight and bring my meds down to as little as possible. I also now feel hungry. I really quite looked forward to eating it but didn't really get anything out of it.
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In which case the most obvious answer is to not eat it again.
 
Scandichic said:
My beef is really with those healthcare people who insist that I must each starchy carbs with every meal and get very confrontational about my diet despite my success in reducing bs and weight. Attitudes range from confrontational to sulking and refusing to see me (dn). Some have insisted that I go on an "education" course - obviously that will make me see the error of my ways!
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Arn't these people supposedly "professionals" :)
As for "education" how about biology or chemistry.

Nobody has given me a reason why they're right and I'm wrong. If they are all so sure there should be oodles of reasons.
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Because their claim is nonsense in the first place.
 
Bluetit1802 said:
Scandi, how many carbs are you eating daily at the moment, and how many did you eat the day you had the rice? This is a very important factor in deciding whether it was the rice that caused you to spike, or the extra carb intake over normal. It could well have been the rice, but it could also have had the same effect with any other extra carb whether it be bread, pasta, fruit or veg carbs etc. Your body is only producing enough insulin to deal with your current normal carb intake, so when you suddenly increased that intake at one meal there would not have been enough insulin to deal with it. It takes a few days for your body to realise it needs to produce more insulin to cover the additional carbs.
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So what's the point of eating them if you have to get used to them? Am hoping you can give me an answer in idiot terms! Brekkie normal- 2 97.5% meat sausages, 1 poached egg, lunch smoked salmon, nuts, salami (1% carb) small handful of raspberries, piece of cheese. Dinner: Thai green curry (prawn) and small portion of rice.
I feel dizzy for 4 reasons:
Not enough food
Not enough water
Too high for me (anything above 7.5)
Too low for me (below 4)
Does this help?
 
mpe said:
Arn't these people supposedly "professionals" :)
As for "education" how about biology or chemistry.



Because their claim is nonsense in the first place.
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This is my gut feeling but I have biology o level not a degree in biology or medicine and that is why I am trying to get some answers in idiot terms as I am determined to do some damage limitation here by losing weight reducing bs and reducing meds if possible. Am trying to exercise too..... This is why I can't understand the response I get. If i buried my head in the sand and stuffed my face with cake in self pity I'd get it!
 
mpe said:
There should be no "argument" since the human body does not need glucose, fructose or galactose to be present in the diet at all. This is rather basic biology (AFAIK this holds for all mammals).



In which case the most obvious answer is to not eat it again.
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Agreed! Lol! :)
 
Scandichic said:
So if I understand correctly, then the reason for the NHS approach is that reduced calories (ie low fat) will reduce the weight and higher starchy carb will decrease insulin resistance whereas LCHF causes your body to get its energy from burning fat and will not decrease insulin resistance?
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The basic idea appears more "fat is bad".

The interesting thing is that "starchy carb" equates to lots of glucose the exact compound you already know your body has trouble handling. Even non insulin resistant people can have problems with glucose at GDA levels.
Even if LCHF made no change to insulin resistance reducing dietary glucose means that this is no longer going to be such a problem in the first place.
 
mpe said:
The basic idea appears more "fat is bad".

The interesting thing is that "starchy carb" equates to lots of glucose the exact compound you already know your body has trouble handling. Even non insulin resistant people can have problems with glucose at GDA levels.
Even if LCHF made no change to insulin resistance reducing dietary glucose means that this is no longer going to be such a problem in the first place.
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Exactly so why are most HCPs against it? What is the argument against it? Why is it the wrong type of energy? What does GDA mean - I told you that I am an idiot when it comes to science! :(
 
These days I,eat some bread, but irregularly and small portions.

I kept bread in my diet at lunchtime, when newly diagnosed, and didn't have too many issues with it; that is, I had less than a 2.5 rise at the +2 hour point, but stopped eating it, as my OH developed a form of excema, which was considered to be dietary based. The non-artisan bread here is quite yellow, so we reckon it probably has some corn flour in it, but without making enquiries with the baker, it's hard to find these things out. By comparison, the UK is a dream location for readily available nutritional information.

I restarted, a little early last month, almost by accident. We were eating out and I was ravenous. I chose chill, which this particular bistro served with sourdough bread. It comes with 2 thin-ish slices, but I usually only manage one, because the chilli portion is very generous. So, again, I am eating it alongside a meal with fat in it, and sour cream on top. I've had this 3 times now and never had a rise of more that 0.3 at +2 hours, or later. I've similarly had a couple of demi-baguette slices with aioli, as an taster. As a garlic lover it was divine, although I didn't manage the bread with my main that night. I haven't gone back an looked at my blood scores, in this context, relating to this period in particular, but I should really.

I've never gone a low as you, carb-wise, and almost always have raw rolled oats at breakfast, which along with the wheat bran I add, and semi-skimmed milk is 26g. I have always had a bit of something at the back of my mind about the body forgetting how to cope with carbs.

Whilst I hear loud and clearly what you are saying about continuing to eat something that doesn't agree with us, I don't believe it's an all or nothing situation. I believe if i gave up, say, fat, then had a heavily fat laden meal, I would know about it. Or, for that matter, giving up alcohol for x amount of time, then being giddy one one glass of fizz.

I guess some of it comes down to where we are on moderation, compromise, and ease of day to day living, alongside others.

I don't don't believe my diet will ever be re-normalised, in a non-diabetic sense, but it am quite a social person and would like to be able to eat out with friends, and have a few more menu choices, without being labelled the food-nutter at the end of the table.
 
AndBreathe said:
These days I,eat some bread, but irregularly and small portions.

I kept bread in my diet at lunchtime, when newly diagnosed, and didn't have too many issues with it; that is, I had less than a 2.5 rise at the +2 hour point, but stopped eating it, as my OH developed a form of excema, which was considered to be dietary based. The non-artisan bread here is quite yellow, so we reckon it probably has some corn flour in it, but without making enquiries with the baker, it's hard to find these things out. By comparison, the UK is a dream location for readily available nutritional information.

I restarted, a little early last month, almost by accident. We were eating out and I was ravenous. I chose chill, which this particular bistro served with sourdough bread. It comes with 2 thin-ish slices, but I usually only manage one, because the chilli portion is very generous. So, again, I am eating it alongside a meal with fat in it, and sour cream on top. I've had this 3 times now and never had a rise of more that 0.3 at +2 hours, or later. I've similarly had a couple of demi-baguette slices with aioli, as an taster. As a garlic lover it was divine, although I didn't manage the bread with my main that night. I haven't gone back an looked at my blood scores, in this context, relating to this period in particular, but I should really.

I've never gone a low as you, carb-wise, and almost always have raw rolled oats at breakfast, which along with the wheat bran I add, and semi-skimmed milk is 26g. I have always had a bit of something at the back of my mind about the body forgetting how to cope with carbs.

Whilst I hear loud and clearly what you are saying about continuing to eat something that doesn't agree with us, I don't believe it's an all or nothing situation. I believe if i gave up, say, fat, then had a heavily fat laden meal, I would know about it. Or, for that matter, giving up alcohol for x amount of time, then being giddy one one glass of fizz.

I guess some of it comes down to where we are on moderation, compromise, and ease of day to day living, alongside others.

I don't don't believe my diet will ever be re-normalised, in a non-diabetic sense, but it am quite a social person and would like to be able to eat out with friends, and have a few more menu choices, without being labelled the food-nutter at the end of the table.
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I didn't think I eat that low carb but I don't calorie or carb count. I do usually have loads of greens or salad with evening meal. Tonight it's panfried salmon with lentils and wilted spinach or salmon and salad. We should have had this yesterday but the salmon wasn't defrosted in time.
I don't think you're a food nutter - lol!
I just have concerns that if I have to reintroduce bread or rice slowly then I wonder if it's a good idea to eat it all :(
 
Scandichic said:
No I get it. Do you eat bread? If so which kind? Does naan have any effect? I think it's my brain trying to break some of the associations like curry with rice or naan. Used to eat a lot of rice - risottos, paellas in pre diabetic days. Find whole thing bizarre.
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I eat bergen soya and linseed one slice a day and also rye bread. The rye is interesting as I can eat loads and it just keeps me at 7 for hours.


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Maybe the fact you don't carb or calorie count is where your mistake is? . If your calories are too low it is difficult to eat adequate nutrition, vitamins, minerals, fibre etc. and you can also put your body into starvation mode, which lowers your metabolism and makes weight loss difficult. You may even be making up your calories with too much protein and not enough fat. You may even be consuming too many calories. How do you know if you don't count? At the moment I'm counting everything and weighing most things until I get used to what an acceptable (to me) portion looks like. Just a thought.

As for re-introducing bread or rice and the reasons for it, that depends entirely on how much you like to eat them and whether you can do without them for the rest of your life. If you can, then that's brilliant. I know I couldn't live for very long without bread and a few spuds, so in order to stay on the wagon for this life-long diet I am eating them but in much smaller portions than previously.
 
So what do carbohydrate containing foods have that other foods don't have? Biggest thing fibre : soluble, non soluble and resistant (have a look at the Jim Mann lecture to see why in regards to diabetes). Undoubtedly you can get other nutrients from other sources. (for example you can get some vit C from offal) but by eating a wide variety of foods then you have more likelihood of getting adequate nutrition.
Personally, I think that the emphasis should be on a wide range of nutrient rather than energy dense food. and the best way to do this is to eat a wide variety of food. If you can fulfil minimum nutrient requirements on a very low carb diet then show that to your HCP.
Stick your own diet in one of the online trackers and check out the nutrient profile. (forget about the macro nutrients which a tracker will say aren't right.) See, if it's too high or low in other respects.
If it's adequate then you would have good evidence that you are eating a diet isn't lacking essential vitamins and minerals

The US supertracker does a particularly good print out of nutrient profiles; it's just a devil of a job trying to work out how much of something you ate if you aren't used to cup measurements. The other online trackers are easier to use but many of the entries are crowd sourced and inaccurate or incomplete.
Have a look at those foods which are most nutrient dense. http://www.whfoods.com/foodstoc.php , you can also look up which are high in the various nutrients.
Note that though some grains are included, that doesn't include white rice or probably most bread or pasta. That isn't what is really meant by whole grains You are already including lentils which also count as a starch , have a good nutrient content and are high in fibre . (again see Jim Mann !)
It's up to you though to make your own decisions. If you are happy that your diet is OK for you then it is your decision as to wehther you follow any guidelines.
 
I would agree that a food diary of some sort would probably be useful. If I have a reading that is a bit elevated (for me), I obviously know what I have just eaten, but by referring to myfitnesspal, I can look back to when I last ate it (OK! That bit is a bit labour intensive, but there may be an easier way I haven't figured out yet), then I can see how it affected me last time I ate it, and get some sense there. I still record everything I eat every day, and now I have a decent history in there, it takes seconds to add meals, drinks or whatever by clicking a couple of buttons.
 
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