Angry! Angry! Angry!

Welshman1952 said:

By this time I couldn't work out whether I was being taught by an imbecile, or a member of the UK branch of the KKK!!!! Will I comment on this blatant racism? Count on it!

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Sounds like "fat fighters club" on Little Britain..?

Welshman1952 said:

Well, 30 mins ago, I came away from the first of a 2-part course on diabetes education. I didn't go out of some masochistic mechanism but because I was referred by my doctor and DN. Blimey ... what a travesty.

Over three hours I was encouraged to eat plenty of rice, potato and pasta, told bread was good for me and that there was no need to avoid sugary beans or sweet and sour sauces. Moreover, occasional sweets biscuits are fine, but fats and sweeteners should be avoided (as the latter give you diarrhoea). Oh, and there is absolutely no need to use a BG monitor unless I am taking insulin.

Tragically, the other ten diabetics in the room were lapping it up. Many of the questions included things like "can I still have biscuits/ Mars bars/ milk chocolate etc". In response, the dietician trawled out suggestions of eating healthy and everything in moderation. So, go for it guys and chomp on your rich tea and ginger nuts!!!!

If I was to follow that advice, my HbA1c in three months would be in the 80s (at least) and I would be on a sure track to be taking a wheelbarrow full of meds!

This morning as a result of a largely LCHF diet my fasting BG was 5.2. On top of that none of my test results have been over 7.3 for the last week and most average around 5.5. So, who is right? Is it me with the hard data to support continuation of my diet/ lifestyle, or a bunch of ill-advised, dogmatic HCPs who appear unable to see the wood from the trees?

The bottom line is tragic - their misinformation is destroying the future lives of help-seeking diabetics. Those professionals should feel ashamed!

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You are absolutely right. This is the same rubbish I was told.

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Prem51 said:

Look on the bright side @Welshman1952 , you found this forum before going to this course and found out for yourself how to control your condition. You might have gone without that knowledge and just accepted the advice like the others there.

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I'd read Bernstein and Rhule already and couldn't believe what I was hearing

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Welshman1952 said:

@eddie1968 for the record, this was not a T2 Desmond course but one designed by local commissioners to match the "needs" of my local health area. As such it was an accurate representation of events. The fact you do not like what was said is your right but in no way changes the facts of what was said on the course.

You are within your rights to not do an LCHF diet and I wish you every possible success. As I said on the course and on this forum and I repeat again - I believe there are many routes to health and recovery of which LCHF is only one. Diabetics must choose their own way but should be informed of all the options, not just the old die-hard ways that are increasingly being found to be suspect.

I would suggest that flaming is not the best way to breed intelligent discussion and that perhaps a more courteous, balanced response would have been better.

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Ok, I offer an apology - sounds like the course you were on is not a course for diabetics who are diet controlled. I got annoyed and jumped the gun and thought you were describing the DESMOND course which is run by the NHS and I've been on it and still have my book and it is a good educational course for T2 diabetics. Grovelling apologies @Welshman1952.. When I am wrong I will apologise and hold my hands up.

I too turned down the opportunity to attend one of these courses for the same reasons expressed by Lindy1706. I find it extremely frustrating and quite sad that newly diagnosed diabetics are being misinformed in this way.


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eddie1968 said:

I do not know what course you were on but if it was the T2 DESMOND course you have either reported your experience inaccurately or whoever did the course did not conduct in the proper manner. I have been on the course and in no part did it encourage excess or gratuitous intake of carbs. The course is an education on all part of Type 2 diabetes and diet is a part of it. I find your post an inaccurate misrepresentation and a "pro LCHF" post. The facts are not in on LCHF and that is why I do not do it.

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Though, to be fair... The "fact" is anyone with insulin resistance, lazy or dead pancreas will have (depending on the individual case?) varying trouble with carbs causing unhealthy BS.
Even in "theory" a "bolus for it merchant" like me would have practical issue balancing my meds with even the moderate "treat" like a mars bar....

Reporting bad advice as the OP did with a humorous slant, does not represent a "LCHF agenda".
If the OP is as such along with the subsequent posters? More power to em.... We all gotta eat. How we adapt to this condition (& come out of it alive.) is personal choice...

Edit; just seen your apology.. I was only attempting to keep the peace on all sides.

Much love..!

Jaylee said:

Though, to be fair... The "fact" is anyone with insulin resistance, lazy or dead pancreas will have (depending on the individual case?) varying trouble with carbs causing unhealthy BS.
Even in "theory" a "bolus for it merchant" like me would have practical issue balancing my meds with even the moderate "treat" like a mars bar....

Reporting bad advice as the OP did with a humorous slant, does not represent a "LCHF agenda".
If the OP is as such along with the subsequent posters? More power to em.... We all gotta eat. How we adapt to this condition (& come out of it alive.) is personal choice...

Edit; just seen your apology.. I was only attempting to keep the peace on all sides.

Much love..!

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Agreed, I took his post out of context and shouldn't have used the "pro LCHF" phrase. If a diet works for you then keep going.

I've been type 1 for 54 years and for all that time have been on low carb diet. My HBA1c is always within the normal range and I have no complications.I have done more in my 54 years with diabetes than most do in a lifetime. I must be doing something right, surely, in spite of the rubbish, called advice, that I hear HCP s spout. My doctor thinks I am type 2 (presumably because of my age--at least she reads something on my health records!!!!) and tells me that if I eat anything sweet I will have a hypo because my body will produce more insulin to compensate for the sugar connsumed. What can you say to such twaddle (without making the doc look as though she doesn't know what she is talking about)? I say nothing and just walk out when she finishes talking-at least it gives the impression of compliancy!!, I have wasted so much time "discussing" diabetes with doctors that I frankly can't be a**** anymore.........

Welshman1952 said:

Hi @eddie1968
Well thankfully it's over now. The one saving grace was that the organisers encouraged participants to read through all the Diabetes UK website ... at www.diabetes.co.uk ... needless to say, I didn't correct their error.

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I couldn't agree more about the lack of "real information" available. After 30 years as a T2 it is only in the last 6 months (and largely due to the info on this site) that I have been able to gain better management of my diabetes. On a LCHF diet and loosing weight with BGL's averaging 6 and on half my insulin dose. It pays to educate yourself and take control of your own health.

Welshman1952 said:

Well, 30 mins ago, I came away from the first of a 2-part course on diabetes education. I didn't go out of some masochistic mechanism but because I was referred by my doctor and DN. Blimey ... what a travesty.

Over three hours I was encouraged to eat plenty of rice, potato and pasta, told bread was good for me and that there was no need to avoid sugary beans or sweet and sour sauces. Moreover, occasional sweets biscuits are fine, but fats and sweeteners should be avoided (as the latter give you diarrhoea). Oh, and there is absolutely no need to use a BG monitor unless I am taking insulin.

Tragically, the other ten diabetics in the room were lapping it up. Many of the questions included things like "can I still have biscuits/ Mars bars/ milk chocolate etc". In response, the dietician trawled out suggestions of eating healthy and everything in moderation. So, go for it guys and chomp on your rich tea and ginger nuts!!!!

If I was to follow that advice, my HbA1c in three months would be in the 80s (at least) and I would be on a sure track to be taking a wheelbarrow full of meds!

This morning as a result of a largely LCHF diet my fasting BG was 5.2. On top of that none of my test results have been over 7.3 for the last week and most average around 5.5. So, who is right? Is it me with the hard data to support continuation of my diet/ lifestyle, or a bunch of ill-advised, dogmatic HCPs who appear unable to see the wood from the trees?

The bottom line is tragic - their misinformation is destroying the future lives of help-seeking diabetics. Those professionals should feel ashamed!

Click to expand...

ickihun said:

I'll be surprised if there's a case to hear. They arent advising on the wrong info that any other specialist of their stature would say. Until that changes, no case to take. In fact, they are prone to negligence if they only give lchf diet when that clearly doesn't work for everyone.
It works for me but I'm not everyone!
That's why some patients see dieticians for one to one advice.
These courses are just a guide not set in stone.

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When I developed diabetes I was 8 years old (1962) and at every hospital visit (childrens' hospital) I saw the dietician with the consultant. At 14 years of age I started to attend the adult diabetes clinic and it took them 48 years to arrange an appointment with the dietician. It was a complete waste of time, she didn't listen to any of my answers to her questions and didn't even know how much carbohydrate bread contained. I have followed a low carb diet now for 54 years, my HBa1c is always within the normal (non-diabetic) range and I have no complications. Low carbs might not be for everyone but it certainly works for me. One of the reasons carb restrictive diets were no longer recommended for diabetics, as they once were-pre 1980 s, was because so many found it difficult to keep to their diets and it was thought people might (magically) be "good" if they didn't have to stick to a special low carb diet (a bit like the idea that children would be able to read, without having been taught to do so, if they were just given books--both of these ideas, by the way, originated in the eighties when it was assumed that children and diabetics would work out for themselves how to respectively read and know what to eat). Obviously high carbs are detrimental because people with diabetes either cannot metabolise carbs effuciently or are unable to metabolise them at all. That is why they have diabetes which means that if they eat lots of starch it is not going to enable them to enjoy life to the full because they will lack the necessary energy to do so. Low carbs often enable type 2 s to come off, and stay off medication and type 1 s to need less insulin and become more insulin sensitive.

prancer53 said:

I've been type 1 for 54 years and for all that time have been on low carb diet. My HBA1c is always within the normal range and I have no complications.I have done more in my 54 years with diabetes than most do in a lifetime. I must be doing something right, surely, in spite of the rubbish, called advice, that I hear HCP s spout. My doctor thinks I am type 2 (presumably because of my age--at least she reads something on my health records!!!!) and tells me that if I eat anything sweet I will have a hypo because my body will produce more insulin to compensate for the sugar connsumed. What can you say to such twaddle (without making the doc look as though she doesn't know what she is talking about)? I say nothing and just walk out when she finishes talking-at least it gives the impression of compliancy!!, I have wasted so much time "discussing" diabetes with doctors that I frankly can't be a**** anymore.........

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From what your doc is saying here. (Highlighted in red.) Sounds like she thinks you have reactive hypoglycemia.. Lol

Robinredbreast said:

I am not type 2, but.............. if these products caused a problem with getting diabetes ( but not in all) then surely continuing to eat them will still cause problems, or is that only on diet and exercise alone, or take the meds and fill yourself up, (but within reason and in moderation) ?
Could be a bit like closing the stable doors after the horse has bolted !!

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It's not clear that these foods did CAUSE the problem, only that they are associated with its continuation. Insulin resistance is not caused by diet or dietary elements. It occurs in the muscles primarily and is evidenced by the inability to deal with carbohydrates effectively. The success of the Newcastle Diet says that fat accumulation (possibly specifically in the pancreas) plays a part. It is clear that insulin resistance is very strongly associated with poor levels of muscular fitness.

But 'let's eat lots of bacon and cream, and damp down the most obvious symptom' is a much more attractive 'remedy' than most, it has to be said.

It hasn't been tested long term yet, though. In twenty years time we may be looking at lots of deaths from fatty liver disease, people with chronic gallstones and gout who can hardly touch any food group at all, cardiac problems from all the red meat, great blood sugars but obesity induced cancer. Much is yet to be seen.


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@RuthW

If you are going to claim that Low Carbing is primarily composed of bacon and cream, and that Low Carbers sit around all day being inactive, while continuing with fatty liver disease (which is shown to be reduced or cured by Low Carbing plus the typical weight loss that accompanies Low Carbing) could you please provide some references for your claims?

Hopefully those references will be recent enough not to be polluted by the various cholesterol and fat-heart myths that were prevalent last century which have now been comprehensively disproven.

Your claim that living off bacon and cream has not been tested long term is a pretty obvious one. No one will ever run that test - because eating that way would be silly, wouldn't it?

I do wish people would bother to find out about the lifestyle they are criticising before they ride their hobby horse round the paddock.

RuthW said:

It's not clear that these foods did CAUSE the problem, only that they are associated with its continuation. Insulin resistance is not caused by diet or dietary elements. It occurs in the muscles primarily and is evidenced by the inability to deal with carbohydrates effectively. The success of the Newcastle Diet says that fat accumulation (possibly specifically in the pancreas) plays a part. It is clear that insulin resistance is very strongly associated with poor levels of muscular fitness.

But 'let's eat lots of bacon and cream, and damp down the most obvious symptom' is a much more attractive 'remedy' than most, it has to be said.

It hasn't been tested long term yet, though. In twenty years time we may be looking at lots of deaths from fatty liver disease, people with chronic gallstones and gout who can hardly touch any food group at all, cardiac problems from all the red meat, great blood sugars but obesity induced cancer. Much is yet to be seen.


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Good grief where are you getting your information from? The low carb diet has improved my lipid profile tremendously and it has been shown that cancers tend to feed off sugars not fat and that eating fat does not make you fat but indeed with low carb people lose weight effortlessly even if they don't particularly want to so there'll be no obesity induced cancers from eating this way.

Maybe people forget that back in the days before insulin then low carb diets were the only possible treatment for diabetes and many diabetics of all types ate that way of necessity. It was the invention of insulin injections that enabled diabetics to eat the same foods as anyone else. Sadly the general 'fear of fat' that took hold in the 80s thanks to Ancel Keys and his flawed studies but powerful personality mean that we have suffered ever since at the mercy of official advice to eat starchy carbs and cut the fat.

Then of course there was the pushing of cereals to get America back on it's feet after the war and we are left at the mercy of agriculture and pharmaceutical industries who want us to eat the food thats cheapest for the to produce and take the medicines they come up with to deal with the resulting illnesses.

Look at the links with food companies that Diabetes UK have or the BHF and see why they wont be changing their advice any time soon.

seadragon said:

Good grief where are you getting your information from?
snipped.

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My thoughts entirely.

My practice nurse told me that I could eat as much pasta, rice And bread as I wanted as long as it was brown......she also told me that her Husband (Diabetic for 15 years) enjoyed a regular donut which was fine as his Medication covered it! Apparently it was far too hard to give up sugars food And complex carbs And easier long term to medicate as you could still enjoy treats.

I think it was at that point I stopped listening And looked for an alternative thank god I stumbled across this forum and the Harcombe Diet.

My recent raft of tests 3 months post diagnosis And a change to a very low carb WOE have shown my blood pressure is now normal, my lipid panel is down by two points with a huge improvement in the good stuff (HbA1c should be back tomorrow so baited breath on that one!)

Doc sent me a note with my Lipid results, well done keep up the good work with the Low Fat Diet.......Face Palm And arrrrrrrrgh!



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RuthW said:

'let's eat lots of bacon and cream

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Well, I'm never trying that recipe again, thanks a bunch for nothing.

ChrisSamsDad said:

Well, I'm never trying that recipe again, thanks a bunch for nothing.

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Everyone's a Heston ruddy Blumenthal these days...!

It's bacon,cream & snail. Mashed with Avacado.. Every T1 knows that.!