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are type II's who need insulin like type I??

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This may be a stupid question, so please excuse my ignorance, but can someone help explain to me the following:

If you are type II diabetic and you end up needing insulin, is this effectively the same as being type I diabetic? (because your pancreas doesn't work anymore)
 
Well I would say yes.

I think the insulin regimes that are then prescribed may then differ between T1 / T2? I've never understood why or even if I've got that right so if someone could inform that would be great.
 
I believe some Type 2's who have to start an Insulin regime may need many more units of Insulin than a type 1 to control BG's if they have Insulin resistance.
 
What does Metformin do ? Sorry I think ive called it metamorphin before!
Would a T2 on insulin need to take this aswell?
I like these threads as they enable us to learn more.

Lucy.
 
Paul1976 said:
I believe some Type 2's who have to start an Insulin regime may need many more units of Insulin than a type 1 to control BG's if they have Insulin resistance.

Oh, is insulin resistance only found in type 2's? I'm curious to know what exactly it is that causes insulin resistance - is it basically fat clogging up the cells of the pancreas? Anybody?
 
shop said:
What does Metformin do ? Sorry I think ive called it metamorphin before!
Would a T2 on insulin need to take this aswell?
I like these threads as they enable us to learn more.

Lucy.

Just while we wait for the clever people to come alomg and answer the OP's question..you got me!

Lucy my daughter is type 2, uses insuin and lantus and is on 4x500 Metformin per day. So, yes, some do and no, I don't understand why! :oops:
 
Does Metformin enable the body to use insulin properly?? I am aware that you can have T1 and also have insulin resistance which is what some T2s have too isnt it ?

Lucy.
 
not sure exactly what causes type 2 but do know that it could be either bad lifestyle/diet or sometimes genetics. Either way a healthy diet and excerise can improve insulin resistance. The metformin encourages the body to use the insulin its producing to work more efficientle. However this may not always help so insulin is needed. Type 1s produce no insulin so may need less insulin than type 2s as there is usually no insulin resistance. A type 1 can develop resistance to injected insulin for whatever reason and develop double diabetes i.e producing no insulin AND insulin resistance, usually again caused by poor diet no excercise.
 
brett said:
not sure exactly what causes type 2 but do know that it could be either bad lifestyle/diet or sometimes genetics. Either way a healthy diet and excerise can improve insulin resistance. The metformin encourages the body to use the insulin its producing to work more efficientle. However this may not always help so insulin is needed. Type 1s produce no insulin so may need less insulin than type 2s as there is usually no insulin resistance. A type 1 can develop resistance to injected insulin for whatever reason and develop double diabetes i.e producing no insulin AND insulin resistance, usually again caused by poor diet no excercise.

Hi Brett

Sorry but type 2 is not down to just a bad diet/lifestyle or genetics. We don't know for sure what causes it. I have got to be honest and say that these constant assumptions of bad diet etc is starting to get on my nerves. My daughter had neither a bad diet or lifestyle but has a disability in which diabetes occurs frequently.

I don't normally tackle these kind of statements but everytime I see the same old stuff trotted out it angers and upsets me, like somehow all t2's have a choice. They don't.

Of course a healthy lower carb diet benefits most type 2's as does exercise. In fact I should imagine that the same info applies to ALL diabetics who want to be as healthy as possible.
 
As already said on the whole people with T2 have insulin resistance to throw into the mix. They may also still be making a considerable amount of their own insulin. Some T2s take a lot of insulin compared with most T1s. (sometimes hundreds of units, by comparison I take 20-25 units which is towards the lower end for T1)

Sometimes insulin in T2 is just used as a supplement ; quite often people get prescribed a background insulin like lantus which may work well in combination with other medications,
If that doesn't work well T2s in the UK seem most normally to be put onto mixed insulin regimes; with 2-3 injections a day (again often with additional oral meds).
They seem less likely to be moved to basal bolus regimes (4+ injections of separate longterm and mealtime insulins) than people with T1.
You can't do a DAFNE course in the UK if you are a T2 on insulin and the reason given is:
"There is no evidence that intensive insulin therapy is of benefit for people with Type 2 diabetes."
Intensive in this case means dose adjustment for a 'normal' diet as opposed to conventional treatment which relies on fixed doses of insulin (and really ought to be tied to fixed amounts of carbohydrates). The fact that a person with T2 may be producing some insulin of their own and that they may have insulin resistance is thought to make this type of 'therapy' less effective.

Nevertheless I've met type 2s online who use 'intensive' insulin therapy, I've met some who use pumps and some of these people have very good control. One man who is quite a prominent T2 pumper on forums has written a book about sucessful T2 management. He started on oral medication, and was on oral medications for 12 years. At the end of this periods his HbA1cs went from 6% to over 8%, he then moved onto lantus, then a mixed insulin and eventually a pump. Since going on the pump in 2007, he has had no HbA1c greater than 5.7%, his latest are down as low as 5%. He still takes metformin to counter insulin resistance in the shape of too much glucose from the liver: Intensive therapy works for him

Having said all that: T2 is a big catchall category, it includes a range from those who are insulin deficient to those who produce plenty. It includes those who are only mildly insulin resistant (and we probably all get more insulin resistant as we age) to those who are extremely resistant. It often includes people who have an autoimmune attack but are miss diagnosed because of their age.
On top of this there are a great many very different causes for diabetes from drug induced, for known genetic reasons, because they've had a particular illness, because the have too much iron etc etc. These people are not T2 but are often lumped into the T2 category when they shouldn't be, In the UK there seems to be only 2 boxes on the computer!
WIth all these different types of diabetes shoved into a T2 box, there will be some who have not enough insulin to sustain life so will be just like T1s. There will be others who produce it, but not enough to overcome insulin resistance so need insulin to supplement their own..
 
phoenix said:
As already said on the whole people with T2 have insulin resistance to throw into the mix. They may also still be making a considerable amount of their own insulin. Some T2s take a lot of insulin compared with most T1s. (sometimes hundreds of units, by comparison I take 20-25 units which is towards the lower end for T1)

Sometimes insulin in T2 is just used as a supplement ; quite often people get prescribed a background insulin like lantus which may work well in combination with other medications,
If that doesn't work well T2s in the UK seem most normally to be put onto mixed insulin regimes; with 2-3 injections a day (again often with additional oral meds).
They seem less likely to be moved to basal bolus regimes (4+ injections of separate longterm and mealtime insulins) than people with T1.
You can't do a DAFNE course in the UK if you are a T2 on insulin and the reason given is:
"There is no evidence that intensive insulin therapy is of benefit for people with Type 2 diabetes."
Intensive in this case means dose adjustment for a 'normal' diet as opposed to conventional treatment which relies on fixed doses of insulin (and really ought to be tied to fixed amounts of carbohydrates). The fact that a person with T2 may be producing some insulin of their own and that they may have insulin resistance is thought to make this type of 'therapy' less effective.

Nevertheless I've met type 2s online who use 'intensive' insulin therapy, I've met some who use pumps and some of these people have very good control. One man who is quite a prominent T2 pumper on forums has written a book about sucessful T2 management. He started on oral medication, and was on oral medications for 12 years. At the end of this periods his HbA1cs went from 6% to over 8%, he then moved onto lantus, then a mixed insulin and eventually a pump. Since going on the pump in 2007, he has had no HbA1c greater than 5.7%, his latest are down as low as 5%. He still takes metformin to counter insulin resistance in the shape of too much glucose from the liver: Intensive therapy works for him

Having said all that: T2 is a big catchall category, it includes a range from those who are insulin deficient to those who produce plenty. It includes those who are only mildly insulin resistant (and we probably all get more insulin resistant as we age) to those who are extremely resistant. It often includes people who have an autoimmune attack but are miss diagnosed because of their age.
On top of this there are a great many very different causes for diabetes from drug induced, for known genetic reasons, because they've had a particular illness, because the have too much iron etc etc. These people are not T2 but are often lumped into the T2 category when they shouldn't be, In the UK there seems to be only 2 boxes on the computer!
WIth all these different types of diabetes shoved into a T2 box, there will be some who have not enough insulin to sustain life so will be just like T1s. There will be others who produce it, but not enough to overcome insulin resistance so need insulin to supplement their own..

Phoenix, thanks so much for this. As I have said, my daughter has been on insulin of one type of another for more than 5 years and has also had Levemir and is now on Lantus, she too has oral meds.
None of the above was ever explained to me and for those that may think I was daft for not asking, well...let's just say we had a whole load of other difficulties we were dealing with at the time.

I'm going to print this and keep it safe. :clap:
 
Hi all.
It is a brilliant question and is relevant even to myself.
Have stored it in my favourites to refer back to.
Thanks Pheonix for a well explained post.
Am a type 2 [so they have told me] needing 30/30 split dosed insulin [60 units]
I well remember my consultant telling me NOT to worry over increasing my insulin as some patients
take up to 400 units !!!!! :shock: :shock: :shock:
I was up to 20/20 then when I saw him , and was FAR from happy at having to NEED more insulin.
Anna.x
 
ladybird64 said:
phoenix said:
As already said on the whole people with T2 have insulin resistance to throw into the mix. They may also still be making a considerable amount of their own insulin. Some T2s take a lot of insulin compared with most T1s. (sometimes hundreds of units, by comparison I take 20-25 units which is towards the lower end for T1)

Sometimes insulin in T2 is just used as a supplement ; quite often people get prescribed a background insulin like lantus which may work well in combination with other medications,
If that doesn't work well T2s in the UK seem most normally to be put onto mixed insulin regimes; with 2-3 injections a day (again often with additional oral meds).
They seem less likely to be moved to basal bolus regimes (4+ injections of separate longterm and mealtime insulins) than people with T1.
You can't do a DAFNE course in the UK if you are a T2 on insulin and the reason given is:
"There is no evidence that intensive insulin therapy is of benefit for people with Type 2 diabetes."
Intensive in this case means dose adjustment for a 'normal' diet as opposed to conventional treatment which relies on fixed doses of insulin (and really ought to be tied to fixed amounts of carbohydrates). The fact that a person with T2 may be producing some insulin of their own and that they may have insulin resistance is thought to make this type of 'therapy' less effective.

Nevertheless I've met type 2s online who use 'intensive' insulin therapy, I've met some who use pumps and some of these people have very good control. One man who is quite a prominent T2 pumper on forums has written a book about sucessful T2 management. He started on oral medication, and was on oral medications for 12 years. At the end of this periods his HbA1cs went from 6% to over 8%, he then moved onto lantus, then a mixed insulin and eventually a pump. Since going on the pump in 2007, he has had no HbA1c greater than 5.7%, his latest are down as low as 5%. He still takes metformin to counter insulin resistance in the shape of too much glucose from the liver: Intensive therapy works for him

Having said all that: T2 is a big catchall category, it includes a range from those who are insulin deficient to those who produce plenty. It includes those who are only mildly insulin resistant (and we probably all get more insulin resistant as we age) to those who are extremely resistant. It often includes people who have an autoimmune attack but are miss diagnosed because of their age.
On top of this there are a great many very different causes for diabetes from drug induced, for known genetic reasons, because they've had a particular illness, because the have too much iron etc etc. These people are not T2 but are often lumped into the T2 category when they shouldn't be, In the UK there seems to be only 2 boxes on the computer!
WIth all these different types of diabetes shoved into a T2 box, there will be some who have not enough insulin to sustain life so will be just like T1s. There will be others who produce it, but not enough to overcome insulin resistance so need insulin to supplement their own..

Phoenix, thanks so much for this. As I have said, my daughter has been on insulin of one type of another for more than 5 years and has also had Levemir and is now on Lantus, she too has oral meds.
None of the above was ever explained to me and for those that may think I was daft for not asking, well...let's just say we had a whole load of other difficulties we were dealing with at the time.

I'm going to print this and keep it safe. :clap:


Great Info Pheonix.....You are Brill :)
 
In addition to what phoenix said: Short answer - no. The conditions are fundamentally different.

T1 patients don't produce (enough) insulin, so insulin therapy is used to fix it. That works quite well.

T2 patients have a range of problems, including insulin resistance. First line treatment is oral medication that addresses these problems - e.g. Metformin:
Mechanism by Which Metformin Reduces Glucose
Production in Type 2 Diabetes

The rate of glucose production was twice as high in the diabetic subjects as in
control subjects (0.70 ± 0.05 vs. 0.36 ± 0.03, P < 0.0001). Metformin reduced that rate by 24% (to 0.53 ± 0.03, P = 0.0009)
As you can see, Metformin helps but doesn't result in normal levels. So, at the end of the day, insulin may be added as a last resort - and not because it addresses the actual cause particularly effectively.
 
My father is a type 2 on insulin. He was on several oral drugs too - Metformin, Glimapride and Ramparil. Due to kidney problems he had to come off the Metformin. He has Lantus 60 ml at 11 pm and another insulin (Sol something) at breakfast, lunch and tea at about 30 ml each. His BG is still often in the teens in the afternoon.

MTT
 
I agree with you ladybird. My blood pressure rises evry time assumptions are made about T11. I am now insulin dependant,Have been for Ten years, I also take meformin. My diabetes is genetic, it comes from the maternal side of my family. AS a small child I watched my mother injecting insulin into my Grandmother, and that was the days before the NHS!
 
phoenix said:
As already said on the whole people with T2 have insulin resistance to throw into the mix. They may also still be making a considerable amount of their own insulin. Some T2s take a lot of insulin compared with most T1s. (sometimes hundreds of units, by comparison I take 20-25 units which is towards the lower end for T1)

Sometimes insulin in T2 is just used as a supplement ; quite often people get prescribed a background insulin like lantus which may work well in combination with other medications, ...

Thanks for the good explanation Phoenix most helpful.
 
hi.... I'm type 2 on insulin and no oral meds for diabetes. Like others have said, not one size fits all when it comes to 'cause' of diabetes. I was diagnosed type 2 at the age of 25 because I had a UTI and was told that I shouldn't have one at that age. Well I got referred to an endocrinologist for diagnostic testing to confirm what I have and along with the shock of being told I have diabetes I also got told I have pcos at the same time. It was explained to me that women with pcos are likely to get diabetes and it's actually a 'precursor' to diabetes... hence their reasoning why I got diabetes so young... along with the fact that a lot of other ladies in my family have diabetes. In regards to insulin... I inject it because I was told my pancreas no longer produces enough insulin (the c-peptide test result was in red text so I know that means it's not good. :lol: ). I basically have to top it up. Now I think this in a way is a little harder to predict than if you produce no insulin at all.... I wished I had a gauge that told me how much insulin I am producing myself. But then again nothing ever makes sense when you expect it to with this condition I have found. There is just way too many anomalies to consider that impact on your BGLs at any one time. But I have to say since being placed on insulin early Feb 10... I have had better control overall. I'm getting my latest HbA1c result tomorrow... so will be interesting to see how I've been going considering all the pain and stuff I've been dealing with. I would still say I'm type 2 though and not type 1 and the reason for that is that I do not produce antibodies that destroys my insulin... my pancreas is simply wearing out because I've had diabetes since 1998 (and maybe even before then undiagnosed). I hope this helps. :)
 
All,

Phoenix has the detailed answers as ever but the simple summary to the OP question is no. They may share medication but the underlying condition is different and the treatment plan will be different likely Insulin teamed up with other meds (as Pearl has). It does make me laugh how diabetics get lumped in given the huge range of conditions, causes, treatment and outcome. Imagine if all heart disease was lumped in. You've either got Type 1 heart disease where something is broken within the heart or Type 2 where something in the cardio-vascular system is damaged. Just give everyone bypass surgery and see what happens.

What? Monitor your heart rate and blood pressure? No thats unneccessary expense.

On the assumptions about diabetes I think shooting Brett down is a bit harsh. He does actually say no-one know what causes it and while every case is different the risk factors he mentions are valid. The reason more people than ever have Type 2 is almost certainly because the population is getting larger and more sedentary. An aging population is also likely to play a role. He mentions genetics as well for those whose genes are involved. If anyone was to say all Type 2's have it because they ate badly is clearly wrong (and lets face it if thats all it was there would be a lot more sufferers) but to ignore that impact is risky. Even identical twins only both get Type 2 Diabetes 75% of the time so there is always complexity. If people believing diet contributes means they eat better and take exercise then maybe some people can live longer. I'll certainly be encouraging my family and especially my daughter to follow that advice in the same way as any other health advice like drinking little and not smoking. I hope this doesn't impact blood pressure too much as we don't need much help in that regard anyway but while it sucks to have the generalisations (I'm a bit sick already of being told I don't look diabetic) the assumptions might just be protecting some peoples health.

I hope that doesn't offend the Type 2 community but just my views. I understand the feeling a bit as I was diagnosed with Type 2 initially despite being fit and well with no family history so I researched around the subject and came up with the 'sometimes it just happens' answer which was a bit disappointing (even more so now Type 1). I do realise though that until I've had 10 years of people telling me a got ill because I ate badly I can't really know what its like.

Peace

TTP
 
I'm not very knowledgeable about insulin for T2. It's something i wouldn't consider for myself. I also believe that it can be avoided by using LC diet. The problem in T2 using insulin is often in the resistance. If you need to use massive doses, you are still stuck with the fat storing aspect of insulin. So I've met several T2 insulin users, whose weight is going up like an express lift. I even met one once who was using U500[ insulin solution of 500units per Cm3. common insulins are U100] in a pump and he was huge.
I'm struggling to get my weight down and no way would Itouch insulin for myself.
Anyway I don't need it. Last HbA1c was 5.6% and I hope the next will be lower. The meter averages are.
Hana
 
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