BBC2 Dragons Den - NFC Wristband

MattJ85 said:

Hi all,

Thought this would create some discussion.
On Dragons Den last night was a rubber wristband with NFC technology in it which would allow ambulance staff to scan and get your medical data

Thought it was a good step on from the medical alert wristbands but would need a lot of awareness within the ambulance trusts.
What are people's thoughts? What do people use to alert others that they are diabetic?
What do people expect from the ambulance service?

Click to expand...

With me it's more a case of what I don't want the Ambulance crew to do and that is, put me on a Glucose drip I use an expandable bracelet and in the summer a silicone band

MattJ85 said:

Surely if you are having a hypo and require IV 10% glucose to bring up your glucose level then you'd want them to cannulate you?!?

If I was ever in that situation I would much prefer glucose rather than glucagon (which is a nasty drug for diabetics with control after the hypo)

Click to expand...

what is so bad about glucagon? i have never had to use it so far i don't even have one in my house but got told i should have one incase of a emergency

I have Reactive hypoglycaemia.
I cannot have glucose, glucagon or quick acting carbs or sugars!

I have a necklace medical alert and information in my wallet, to warn paramedics.

I believe that a glucose nasal spray has been approved by the Americans.

For us weird types, we don't follow the normal recommendations on treatment of hypos.

I thought the dragons made sense, if the website goes down, your info cannot be retrieved or if the company can no longer afford to run the site, how would they inform users site was no longer available.
The other problem is NHS are not allowed to use outside devices on NHS equipment, so would have to use their own phones, which isn't going to happen, would you like a complete stranger to have your contacts and medical needs

If one has a serious problem, most carry a card. I have one for Warfarin and a Pacemaker.
I don't go anywhere without them and it is low tech.
D.

Sounds good @MattJ85, anything that helps identify someone's medical problems to the emergency services has to be a good thing, just the same if I were to use one I'd still carry a card in my wallet just to be sure (which is all I do now).

There was a nasal spray available in UK until last year when it was withdrawn. It gave inconsistent results and was difficult to administer a reliable dose on a regular basis. BTW what does NFC stand for? Near Field Communication i.e. like contactless credit cards. There are multiple differing protocols for NFC, and many are not interchangeable. I did not see the program, so does anyone know if the wristband need batteries?

There's a glucagon nasal spray that I think has just been given FDA approval in the US. Very interesting!

For something that is supposedly about Emergency critical care, I'm afraid that anything electronic that cannot tell you what you need to know immediately is of little use.

Think about the steps on encountering a collapsed person in the street. In scenario (a), wearing a medic alert bracelet/necklace, this is checked for, read and the appropriate tests are done before administering some form of treatment. And if an admission is needed, the medic alert people have on record the unconscious person's details and meds (or in theory at least should have!).

In scenario (b), the ambulance searches for the device, scans it and learns? The same stuff, but they need to have a phone signal, their device needs to have enough power, the remote system infrastructure needs to be up and running. Now, you don't need to have data stored centrally. It's enough to have the wristband store the data so that when scanned it gives everything up, but there are still additional dependencies over and above reading a bracelet that says "Insulin Dependent Diabetic".

I'd have thought that this innovation would have been better worked with the existing band suppliers to fit into what they already offer. It would make more sense that way and in theory allow them to reduce the cost base or offer broader options.

tim2000s said:

In scenario (b), the ambulance searches for the device, scans it and learns? The same stuff, but they need to have a phone signal, their device needs to have enough power, the remote system infrastructure needs to be up and running. Now, you don't need to have data stored centrally. It's enough to have the wristband store the data so that when scanned it gives everything up, but there are still additional dependencies over and above reading a bracelet that says "Insulin Dependent Diabetic".

Click to expand...

Peter Jones on the Den gave the WRONG information to the rest of the dragons at the beginning of the presentation by saying NFC tags required an Internet connection. The other non-technical Den members then assumed that there would a problem if there was no mobile signal and if the web site wasn't working. It gave me the impression that Peter Jones had a vested interest in another technology. However, financially the proposal seemed to be a bit naive. If millions of potential customers are going to be using the service and/or web site its not going to be costing only £150 a month.


The top end of the current (next) generation of NFC tags can hold around 800 characters worth of information, say, 40 lines of text.

The tags do NOT require power and the receiver does NOT require a phone signal.

The tags get power from the reader by electromagnetic induction over a distance of a few inches. It's only the tag reader that needs the power.

If enough information is stored on the tag there is no need to communicate with a third party or web site - or to use the mobile phone system at all.

You can buy NFC tags on Ebay for the equivalent of 30p each albeit limited to 140 bytes (140 characters of information) and download a free App for your (NFC compatible) smart phone from the App/Iphone store to erase, program and read them.

As you say, what would be required is the standardisation of the information that users put on the tag and for the NHS to fully adopt the technology.

I think the interesting thing is that if you are incapacitated to a level that you are unable to look after yourself and you need to be admitted to a hospital, it makes no difference whether you introduce the scan a tag to find out info or the read straight away "Insulin dependent diabetic" and maybe "allergic to Human Analogue Insulin", both of which fit onto the existing bracelets you can buy, together.

The hospital really doesn't care if you use Degludec and Lispro. If you are unconscious, they are putting you on a sliding scale using whatever fast acting they have (assuming you aren't allergic to something). There is limited need for detailed medical data, except for a few specific cases, and that number doesn't generate enough sales.

As has already been said, the NHS will not attempt to access any electronic media presented to them by a member of the public, due to the risk of infection by malware; so memory stick type medical records and similar gadgetry are USELESS. I once bought one, thinking it was a good idea, and when it needed to be used, it was refused. I would have pursued a claim against the manufacturer on grounds of misselling and "not fit for purpose", but I couldn't be bothered with the hassle. Just keep a written record in a necklet or bracelet, and there are no such issues.

For anyone (like me) who hadn't a clue what this thread was about,

NFC = Near Field Communication.

I would be deeply suspicious of such a system because of most of the reasons mentioned above

• reliance on a third party maintaining my records
• records being kept up to date
• data protection
• NHS taking on the additional expense of readers
  
• NHS providing the necessary training to already over-burdened staff

The problem with most of these new technologies is that they are more expensive and require maintenance on an ongoing basis. What is wrong with an ID bracelet?

(and, like @poohtiggy and @nosher8355 the last thing I would want is to be stuck full of glucose in such circs)

I was at college with someone who had a bad silicone allergy so this product would be counter-productive. I wouldn't like to think the absence of such a wristband, for any reason, would suggest there was no underlying medical problem. Plus everything Brunneria says in the post above ^^^

MattJ85 said:

Hi Nosher
Can you explain more about reactive hypoglycaemia ?? As never come across it before

If you are hypoglycaemic then you have low blood sugar so surely giving sugars or carbs would be required to increase this to a normal level??

The first I have heard of a nasal spray - there is a new spray but this is for pain relief but haven't heard of a glucose nasal spray - will keep my eyes open

Click to expand...

Hi @MattJ85 ,

If you look below my post in my signature box, there is a link to the reactive hypoglycaemia thread, and if you can't see that, have a look in the forum list, for our forum.

We cannot have glucose, glucagon or high carb/sugar drinks because that would put our blood glucose levels to high, and that would be the trigger for another hypo a couple of hours later. We produce too much Insulin. We have an imbalance that if we hyper, then hypo, then hyper etc. And not in control. Fluctuating blood glucose levels make us really ill! I call it my hypo hell!
So if we hypo, we can't boost our blood glucose levels quickly. Only slowly, to gain control again.
If you need more information, I will answer!