Blood sugar hard to stabilise

Grazer

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Way to go carilina! It takes a while to get those BGs settling, but looks like you're on your way. Under 7.8 two hours after eating is what a lot of us set as a target, but don't worry if you don't always get there. You will, and then you'll be setting lower targets. Well done.
 

xyzzy

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carilina said:
What is the difference between a non-diabetic being able to eat porridge and a diabetic not being able to eat it?

That's really the same as asking why you are diabetic. All of this is very simple and not entirely accurate but hopefully will help you understand. What happens to most but not all T2's is as follows. For whatever reason we put on weight. That weight gain causes a thing called insulin resistance. Insulin is what we produce in our pancreas. One of insulins jobs is to remove glucose from the blood.

Putting that all together the insulin resistance stops the insulin our pancreas produces from working fast enough and therefore the glucose levels in our blood that rise naturally when we eat end up too high and over time start to cause real problems such as damaging our eyes or making it likely that parts of us go bad and need amputating. Also the too high sugar levels damage the pancreas itself so that it gradually produces less and less insulin which means our sugar levels get more and more uncontrolled.

So what's that got to do with porridge. Very simply and again not entirely accurate but here goes...

All foods get be thought of as being a mixture of carbohydrate, protein and fat. When we eat stuff no matter what it is the body converts it to glucose. Carbohydrates convert a lot quicker than protein (e.g. things like meat) or fat (e.g. things like cheese). The blood levels you measure on your meter are the amount of glucose in your blood at that time. They need to be under 8 to be at a safe level. When you eat carbohydrates they convert to glucose very quickly so they raise levels faster than protein or fat. Therefore you need your bodies supply of insulin to work effectively as insulin is the stuff that will takes the glucose out of your blood. In T2's like us that effectiveness has been damaged either through insulin resistance or by the fact that our pancreas doesn't produce enough insulin. Normally in a newly diagnosed its some of both.

Now carbohydrates include a number of things. Sugar is one type and is dangerous as it converts to glucose very quickly indeed. That's why we are told to avoid sugar. Carbohydrates also include what we know of as the starchy foods so rice, pasta, potatoes, bread, cereals and flour based things. While these take a bit longer to convert to glucose they still convert very quickly which is why if your body has trouble with its insulin you need to cut them down. Porridge is a cereal and has a high carbohydrate content.

carilina said:
What is the difference between being non-diabetic and being diabetic? What is it about carbs that makes the bg level rise? Maybe if I understood it all a bit better then it would make life a bit easier.

Hopefully answered that above. If you are still unclear ask again no one will mind.

carilina said:
What does the Glic do that makes me need to be wary of it?

Some people think that T2's don't produce insulin but in many newly diagnosed T2's its insulin resistance more than a lack of insulin production that is the problem. If you lose weight your insulin resistance will get better and you may find your tolerance to carby foods improves a bit. Anyway Glic makes your Pancreas produce more insulin. Trouble is it stimulates that production regardless of if you've eaten so if you take it when your levels are low you risk your levels going too low. That's why you are being advised to check you are above 5 before you drive as it gives a bit of leeway in case your glic is making your pancreas produce unnecessary insulin. Although your body has other ways of trying to keep your levels high enough if it exhausts these other ways then there is nothing to stop your levels falling to low and you do risk a hypo. You felt the first signs today and your brain said "Eat a Banana!" Great your brain and your body sorted you out just fine but its not worth the risk so if you're on glic its probably worth not cutting your carbs too low. Trust your meter to tell you what too low is.

Now the second reason some of us don't like glic is that it does stimulate or as I describe it "turbo charge" your pancreas. In many T2's your pancreas is having to work flat out anyway to produce as much insulin as it can because of insulin resistance. Taking a drug like glic makes it work even harder and some of us suspect that it shortens the life of your pancreas. If your pancreas gives out totally then you are in the same position as a T1 and the only thing that will stop you dying is going on insulin.
So many of us reduce our carbs to the point that we don't need to take glic. On a low carb diet then your already overworked pancreas can have a nice rest as if you remember carbs quickly change to glucose which means you need insulin to get rid of the glucose. If you eat less carbs you produce less glucose in your blood so your pancreas can have a much needed holiday.

carilina said:
What does the metformin do?
Right Metformin works in a nice safe way. You can think that it stops your blood actually taking up the glucose so your levels are lowered that way round. It does only lower levels by 1 or 2 points despite what many nurses will tell you. It is good because it also stabilises your levels so that you "spike" less after you eat. As it doesn't stimulate insulin you can never really go to low as if you go low your body does its funky stuff and will normally automatically correct. You can imagine that glic has the ability to knock out the auto correction mechanism which is why you can go to low on that. Metformin is also proven to be good for your heart. Most people find that if they do a low carb diet they get very few of the unpleasant well known Metformin side effects which is an added bonus.

So its all about the carbs you eat. How do you know how carby something is? The easiest way is to look at the backs of packets and tins. All but fresh stuff will list carbs on the label within the small writing on the label. Normally you will see a number that is called "Total Carbohydrates" with a value next to it. That value is normally how many grams of carbs are in 100 grams of the product. A good rule of thumb is to try and eat things where that number is less than around 10 (some may tell you lower and that's fine). Things above 10 become increasingly suspect. So something like rice will say 75ish meaning 75 grams of each 100 grams (three quarters) is carbs which makes it very bad. Something like chicken will say 0 so no carbs at all which is brilliant. What I did was get loads of packets and tins out and read the labels just to get an idea of whats what. On the label underneath the "Total Carbohydrate" number you will normally see an "of which sugars" number IGNORE THAT ENTIRELY its the total carbs that are important not just the sugar content,

Hope that all helps!
 

carilina

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It certainly does help! My goodness, it's such an incredible information-packed piece of advice. It's all starting to make a lot of sense now and it doesn't feel so daunting as it did. Thank you so much - all of you!

Having had great results yesterday I was a little puzzled to find my bg at 11.3 this morning but it soon went down after tablets and breakfast (poached egg on burgen bread) to 6.0.

Went to my doctor earlier to get my repeat prescription for more supplies for my blood monitoring meter and she was on holiday and a locum in her place - the receptionist said he refused to do my prescription saying T2's don't need to test, even though he could see on my records that I'd been given a meter. :roll:

Now that I've starting testing I don't see how I can manage without it at the mo so will have to go and buy some.

I thought of a couple of questions earlier but can't remember what they were now - except this one: What is the best amount of carbs to have at any one meal - oh, and can you live with having 0 carbs?
 
A

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hi Carilina... just keep mixing up your food and see what works. Also just be aware that sometimes there are other things that impact your BGLs. You probably already know that one. :) You may need to have a discussion with your doc anyhow about your meds. It's trial and error at times. I know my docs didn't always get it right either. Personally porridge works well for me usually... on the odd occasion I may get a higher reading... but I'm usually in the 5's after eating porridge. I prefer oats over other cereals too. Keeping your carbs low GI should help. I think we definitely all go through periods where we are not having a great time... but keeping a positive attitude helps. :D
 

xyzzy

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Lets hope your real doc gets back soon. He sounds a good one if he prescribes you strips the normal reaction is the other docs response which is so short sighted...

Yes you could live on zero carbs "theoretically". Without carbs your body will run using a system called ketosis which simplistically means it runs off your fat supplies rather than the glucose provided by carbs. Someone like borofergie or viv or librarising are the experts on that and why its perfectly safe so if you want to know more ask and I'm sure one of them will tell you all about it. The ketosis thing gradually kicks in the less carbs you eat under around 100 grams a day.

MW who does this low carb thing with me sometimes does less than 10 grams a day so does the ketosis thing even though she isn't diabetic and most of the T2's you see posting on here do somewhere between 5 and 120 grams a day. I usually average around 60 grams a day myself which probably means I do a bit of both ways. I do 60g because at that level my BG's stay safe and I like eating some carby things but everyone's tolerance is different which is why testing is so important. Many countries now recognise that restricting carbs is a good way of controlling Type 2 diabetes. In America the recommended daily allowance for T2's is 130 grams which although is just under half the amount still recommended in the UK its still seen as a bit high for some of us. To me recommending a T2 to eat 275g of carbs a day which is what the recommended UK diet says is like feeding vodka to an alcoholic. Its no wonder so many T2's end up on stronger and stronger drugs which ultimately fail and they end up on insulin along with horrible complications. That's the main logic of adopting a low carb life style. You levels will drop back to those of a non diabetic and therefore you should run the same chance of getting a complication as a non diabetic person i.e very little chance. Like I said yesterday a low carb diet isn't a cure as you have to watch what you eat but it does give YOU control back over your life.

Your high reading in the morning is caused by something called the dawn phenomenon (DP). In the early hours of each morning everyones liver dumps a load of glucose into their bloodstreams. It does that if you are a non diabetic as well. The reason is to give you a bit of energy for when you wake up. Now in a non diabetic where their insulin works fine any excess is quickly mopped up but in diabetic it sloshes around your blood stream and causes a high reading in the morning. Not helpful at all but it does gradually get better once you get your levels back under real control although it can take weeks or months for it to settle down. The best way of shifting it is to make sure you eat breakfast. If you want to help shift it even quicker then just go for a brisk 5 or 10 minute walk after breakfast.

A bit of a glib answer now! The best amount of carbs to eat is the amount that keeps your levels under 8 two hours later. Some people try and share their carb allocation across all three meals but others, me included, eat the majority of carbs for dinner. That tends to work well as your readings are likely to be the highest in the morning and then come down in the afternoon and evening. So I try and eat very few carbs for breakfast and lunch and then eat more at dinner when my levels are lower anyway but it really is each to their own.
 

carilina

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Yet another great and informative post, thank you! I will be reading the posts on this thread several times to make sure it all sinks in.

I note your last sentence said that you have more carbs at dinner when your levels are lower - YAY! I'm gonna try having porridge for tea or maybe dinner :D

I notice on your 'signature' that you take 3 metformin a day - is that 1 x 3 times a day with food or 3 all at once in the morning?

You also said about having a brisk walk - I wish I could :( but my muscles are so weak and sore that I can barely get out of the chair or walk, and getting up and downstairs is a real chore. I'm really hoping that this will sort itself out once my levels are stable. Does anyone else have this - or had it when first diagnosed? Even driving can be a problem because I can't get my feet off the floor quick enough and to leave them hovering over the pedals makes my ankles/legs ache even more...so I can only drive short distances at the moment.
 

hanadr

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That's great news carilina!
It's an awful pity that so many people believe in Whole grains and porridge. They're actually not terribly good for anyone. I know some diabetics can handle them. I'm not one Anything like that quickly puts my BG up above my personal target, although I had a little cupcake this afternoon, made by my granddaughter, and It's done very little. However I did walk 3 mles home.
Hana
 

Etty

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Good for you, carilina, it's great when you realize that much of control is in your own hands. Just to add to other comments, it's important to get enough protein every day. There's a basic requirement of around 40g a day I think. So it may not just have been the porridge, but your whole diet that was making you feel ill.
Try eating 3 meals a day, each meal containing some protein food (meat, poultry, fish, seafood, eggs, cheese, nuts), and add some salad/ non-root vegetable at lunch and dinner. Eat as much as you want, it's important not to get hungry. If you have a snack, add some protein food to it. Don't eat low-fat, just a normal amount. Try that for a few days, and see how you feel. Your numbers may drop low enough to cut back on your medicine, making things more stable.
 

carilina

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Just to say that my BG numbers are much, much better since cutting down on carbs - the advice I got about that helped enormously, thank you all.

However, the levels are now dropping quite low - several times a day they've been down to 4.0 and I've felt shaky but knew what to do to get the levels a bit higher, but now the levels are dropping to around 3.0 and I'm not getting any warning symptoms now. It was only by chance that i did a blood test and found the reading to be very low.

Now what? :(
 

angieG

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Well done.
Are you still taking the Glic?
If so you need to talk to your Doc about stopping it or altering your medication as you obviously don't need so much now.

Regards
Angie
 

carilina

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Thank you Angie,

Yes I'm still taking the Glic and I've realised, thanks to advice on this thread, that it's not the Glic or the metformin that was making me ill but the carbs I was eating :roll:

I've now changed my eating habits and have the BG pretty much under control other than when it dips too low without any warning signs, which is quite worrying. I was taking half a Glic twice a day but think I'll give it a miss this evening and see what happens tomorrow morning. Have just tested and my BG is 4.3 and it's been like that pretty much since breakfast so I don't think I need the Glic anyway.

Now to tackle the nerve pain..... :(
 

xyzzy

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carilina said:
Just to say that my BG numbers are much, much better since cutting down on carbs - the advice I got about that helped enormously, thank you all.

However, the levels are now dropping quite low - several times a day they've been down to 4.0 and I've felt shaky but knew what to do to get the levels a bit higher, but now the levels are dropping to around 3.0 and I'm not getting any warning symptoms now. It was only by chance that i did a blood test and found the reading to be very low.

Now what? :(

Carilina its great you now have all this pretty much sussed. I bet you are feeling better!

It might now be time to fess up to your doctor about the new diet. If you are keeping a record of your readings then take them along. My personal non professional opinion is to give up the Glic as quickly as you can both because of the long term thing about it MAYEBE shortening your pancreas life and now appears its causing you some hypo risk. If you weren't on an insulin stimulating drug like Glic then readings in the 3's normally aren't that much of a concern but Glic users should be more careful. I wouldn't give up the Metformin. It a good safe non hypo inducing drug that works well at stopping spikes after you eat and is good for the heart. If your doc does the "you're doing so well you can stop all meds" then say you're not confident enough yet to stop them all.

So go talk to the doc about giving up the Glic. In the meantime you've done SO WELL you might have to UP your carb intake SLIGHTLY to compensate.

Good luck and let us know how you are getting on.
 

carilina

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Hi xyzzy

Thank you again for your post - yes I'm feeling heaps better now! My once very achey legs seem to be getting their strength back slowly but surely. I don't feel so cold or weak anymore either.

The nerve pain is bothering me, though, especially at night.

I've been taking 1/2 a glic twice a day for the past week or so cos a whole glic was too much in the morning and 3 days ago I didn't take the 1/2 glic at night to see what effect it had. I woke up during the night feeling very ill and I tested my BG to find it at 16! It took pretty much the whole of the next day to get the BGs stabilised again. Since then I've been taking 1/2 a glic twice a day again. Maybe I could try just taking it in the evening...?

But since that 'experiment' I'm pretty much getting BG readings under 7 now and haven't had a dip to under 4 for 3 days. I'm also spreading out the metformin - rather than taking 2 x twice a day I'm taking 1 x 3 times a day and that's been working much better if I take one at lunchtime....my BG's are very stable throughout the day.

As for upping the carbs a bit - I actually tried some fish in batter from the chip shop the other night and fully expected to be struck by a bolt of lightning :mrgreen: but nothing happened - my BG stayed around 5.

So I think it's actually the sugars rather than the carbs that makes my BG shoot up (which is what happened with the porridge). When my BGs dipped to under 4 I had 4 jelly babies, as recommended, and my BG went through the roof yet nothing happened when I ate fish in batter which must have had a lot of carbs in it.

I did tell my doctor about how you and others on this forum have given me advice about carbs and that it was working well and she said I'd made her day because of how well I'm doing now!

Thank you! xx
 

dawnmc

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Well done you, but isn't sad that you had to get the advise off a forum. What would we do if it didn't exist!!!
 

carilina

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dawnmc said:
Well done you, but isn't sad that you had to get the advise off a forum. What would we do if it didn't exist!!!

I totally agree with you! I had absolutely no idea why I was feeling so ill until it was pointed out to me that porridge (and other carbs and sugar) was most likely stopping me from stabilising my BGs.

I'd even told my doctor that I had porridge for breakfast and she didn't say anything. I even told her I ate dried pineapple and raisins and she didn't say anything, yet when I now look on the back of packets to see what carbs and sugars they contain I'm stunned at what I used to eat and no wonder I struggled to stabilise my BGs.

I don't think I'm being a drama queen to say that people on this forum have quite likely saved my life because I'm sure I was heading for a heart attack or stroke or something with BG levels in the 20s and now they're under 7.
 

dawnmc

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I believe you. I've been dismissed from seeing the dietician because I will only go low carb, and refuse to eat 'starchy carbs' with every meal. To be fair she was nice and said she would invite me back after a year. She didnt bat an eye when I said my BS went up to 15 after eating All Bran. She said that was a good cereal. lol yeah right.
 

carilina

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Just done a BG test and it's 3.7. I've had no symptoms of shakiness like I usually had so does that mean 3.7 is ok or should I eat 4 of those jelly baby things?

(That's the only good thing about low BG is having the jelly babies) :mrgreen:
 

angieG

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If 4 send you through the roof as per your earlier post, why not just try one or two for now? :lol:

Regards
Angie
 

carilina

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Good thinking batman! :lol:

Last week when my BG went down to 4 I was all shaky but now it's going below that and I don't feel shaky. I only tested cos I'm going to bed early :D but I'm a bit worried in case it goes really low when I'm asleep. I might die in my sleep and not know about it! :lol:
 

xyzzy

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Hi Carlina

You sound loads happier with life which is great. Glad the doc didn't throw a wobbler over low carbs. It seems quite a few know it works even if they can't officially say so which seems stupid.

If you do get low then do what Angie says and just eat one! No need to panic. The 16 reading sounds a bit strange maybe try the same thing again in a few weeks time to see if it happens again. What time of night was it when you tested? Normally sometime around 4.00am onwards everyone's bodies dumps glucose into their system in preparation for the new day. Its called the dawn phenomenon (DP) but even so 16 seems excessive for that and normally you don't wake up feeling ill. The alternative is if you woke up feeling bad because you may have what's called liver dumped. Again this is a perfectly normal mechanism your body uses to self right itself by dumping glucose into the bloodstream if your levels drop to LOW. So the 16 could have been caused by initially dropping to low in the night. If it does it again I really would talk to the doc again as they are the experts and should be able to advise you.

If you're worrying about dropping to low and hypoing on Glic you might want to talk to your doctor anyway. One way you might try this is to actually say you would like to try and give up Glic but would like to try a diabetic medication called Januvia instead. Januvia is effective and runs a lot less risk of causing hypos as it works more by stopping your blood taking up the glucose rather than stimulating your pancreas to produce loads of sometimes unnecessary insulin. It's a far more modern drug than Glic and is a bit more expensive for them to prescribe but if your GP see's how well you are doing and that you want to take things seriously that may aid your case. Lots of forum members take Januvia so they may wish to comment on what I've just written as I take neither medication so again am no real expert.

Now don't get too happy about that fish in batter and remember sugar IS carbs. Sugar is just a refined and very fast acting type of carb and other carbs are nearly as bad and fast acting which is why we cut them down. We cut sugar down the most because its the most dangerous to have in any quantity.

Although that batter is carby it probably isn't horribly carby and the oil it was cooked in is fat and that would have slowed down how fast you system processed the carbs. I do a similar thing with my Burgen bread. I have no tolerance of bread at all, even one slice of Burgen will put me over safety unless I toast it score lines in it then cover it in lots of butter :D . The fat in the butter then slows the whole processing thing down so my levels rise a bit over a longer period of time rather than just one quick big spike. A useful trick to know. The same logic applies to potatoes. Roast potatoes are best because they've been roasted in oil which infuses into them and slow the processing of the carbs down. Mashed potatoes on the other hand are the devils food. By mashing potatoes you release all the starch so that it acts really quickly and will give you one mother of a spike.

Most people also find if they low carb consistently then the occasional one off bad meal doesn't hit you as much as you'd think it should. I don't know why that is but in most of us if you try to raise your carbs back up day after day then pretty soon you will start to see your levels rise back up again. So by all means have fun every now and then and rely on the fact that you can get away with it sometimes but on normal days try and keep good.

Take care and keep happy

Steve