I assume it's too extreme to be dawn phenomena?I've gone to sleep with an acceptable reading (eg. 6), woken up with a similar reading (between 5 and 7, which tells me my BASAL insulin is set OK), and then eaten no breakfast (cup of tea with no milk), and 3 hours later, the blood reading can be 19 !
Definitely possible due to dawn phenomena. My own liver dump can bring such results on days where I am waking up, measure my bg to be around e.g. 7, instantly super stressed because of some work schedule a head of me, rushing to the airport which is 45mins drive away, hustling through security check, running through the corridors, boarding plane. When sitting down in my seat my bg can be at 15-20. I took only my basal at wakeup. No breakfast at all. Nothing till then. And still BAM. Reason why I like my Libre, which enables me to take some counter-shots along the way and not flaring all the way up to 15-20 before getting correction done.I assume it's too extreme to be dawn phenomena?
Could you be insulin resistant?
Hey @James472 , miracles happen man, it is after all Easter these days right?I wasn't aware of this 'dawn phenomenon' ! And here's me calling myself 'experienced' !!!
But I never got levels as crazy as this before. Maybe I also got the dawn phenomenon over the years, but just wasn't aware of it being a thing.
But this is extreme - e.g. 2 weeks ago, I was way up at 22.1 just after midnight (and no take away involved !), and that was after I'd injected way more than I should have needed for dinner time. I always have to add more, and even then, when I test, the results are unpredictable. And of course, the problem with being up at 22 at midnight, is you want to be able to trust the amount of insulin needed to get you safely though till morning
And yet, weirdly ....... there are times when it's as if I'm not a Diabetic at all. The results can stay in the ideal ranges for several hours, and even if I eat, the BG doesn't rise. But I know it's not for long, then it's back out of control again.
Hey, maybe my Pancreas is trying to waken up again, and spring back to life !!! I'll maybe have to go 'Atkins / protein' a bit more, and try coax it back..
Might you be one of the people who doesn't cope well with fasting? You could try eating a little something last thing and having another little something ready in the bathroom to eat just after your first fasting test. I do this with a little pot of cheese strips, and I try not to go more than 4-5 hours without eating.I've gone to sleep with an acceptable reading (eg. 6), woken up with a similar reading (between 5 and 7, which tells me my BASAL insulin is set OK), and then eaten no breakfast (cup of tea with no milk), and 3 hours later, the blood reading can be 19 !
Like itHey @James472 , miracles happen man, it is after all Easter these days right?
If that guy could resurrect from the dead, then why not your pancreas?
Might you be one of the people who doesn't cope well with fasting? You could try eating a little something last thing and having another little something ready in the bathroom to eat just after your first fasting test. I do this with a little pot of cheese strips, and I try not to go more than 4-5 hours without eating.
Sugar Surfing by Stephen Ponder and Beyond Fingersticks by William Lee Dubois are pretty good books about getting the most out of cgm. They helped me a lot after getting libre.
Except presumably overnight?I'm very unlikely to go 4-5 hours without food
Except presumably overnight?
A cgm should help, as you may be able to head things off at the pass before they get to grave, but be aware that the libre can be inaccurate for some people and occasionally has bad sensors, so you'll want to check it occasionally against a conventional meter (and to be safe, wear it for 24 hours before activating and recognise that it has a 15 minute lag against blood readings.)
OK, just throwing some ideas out there...
Has your doctor suggested a pump? (Am thinking a pump with a cgm might give you more control.)
Is your weight stable? Insulin resistance could be coming in if you've put weight on due to too much insulin...
As regards possible insulin resistance, exercise helps me...
I assume you've tried different basal insulin? (Or are you on a pump already?)
Hi again @James472 , a lot of good and valid points you bring forward here, so will try and give my perspective on them one by one:1: I really think there's something 'interesting' going on inside - maybe Liver, or something else. But it's finding it ?
2: OK, Libre will all be new to me. I don't like the fact that it doesn't work with 'some' people, coz right now, I'm feeling like an outlier from the norm !! And 15mins lag ? So if I do a blood test to compare, it should match with one from Libre 15 minutes later?
3: I'm on Novorapid / Lantus (you guys are probably thinking, that's so yesterday !!
But I know them well, and right now, while this weird stuff is happening, I don't want to change insulins. May revise things after I can sort this all out, but right now, "better the devil you know .......". At the moment, I don't have Blood Glucose stability, so I at least want Insulin familiarity.
4: Insulin resistance could be part of it, but I can't see a pattern. Have tried exercise after injecting, but I'm not getting any good results. In fact, one morning in Nov or December, I headed to Diabetic Clinic to consult on it (no breakfast), and then walked for several miles afterwards, with no food at all. When I got home, it was 16, as if there had been no exercise.
5: Maybe a pump would at least keep my sugars in better control, if the pumps are able to deliver the levels of insulin I'm using ?
But nobody does that. E.g. a finger prick can also be 15-30 to more minutes 'off' or actually completely off the torso's artery bg level, simply because you pull that blood from the end of an exposed extremity.
Thanks for that @Celsus - it's reassuring to hear.(disclosure: I am on same insulins myself)
No breakfast and then exercise makes your liver dump!
same what happens when you go hypo and your body counter-reacts
The pump alone will not be able to bring you good control
Maybe you would care please to share with us your body weight and the total insulin doses you typically take during a day?
Wow @James472 , that is quite an amount of fast acting bolus you are on there!...
Last time I remember them weighing me, it was around 14stone. I reckon I am 1 - 1.5 stone overweight.
Insulin levels are:
Lantus - 16
Novorapid:
Breakfast - should only be 1 or 2, is actually 6 or 7
Lunch - should only be 4 or 5, is actually 12-14.
Correction top-up 2 hours later (most days) 6-8.
Sometimes another correction is needed 6-8.
Dinner - should be 6-10, is actually 16-20.
Supper - should be 3 or 4, is actually 12-14 (partly correcting).
If BG's are then heading in wrong direction, probably another 6-8, just from experience, knowing what will happen overnight.
The reason I'm generally happy with the Basal Lantus, is when I've had any illness, I cut foods out (particularly Carbs), just minimum foods that I can get away with, and have ridden through with beautifully stable readings just on 16 Lantus. And of course, these weird BGs weren't always here - I previously had good control, and with Lantus of 16.
If I've ever suffered any night hypos (HYPOS ? These days, if only !!!), it's been with incorrectly judging Novorapid, rather than my Basal
...
Its a religious time of year, so please let me confess...
We were up quite late last night with friends and family. And when going to bed we all agreed to sleep a little longer this morning and then all meet to have a big brunch from around 11am. So I thought that was a perfect occasion to check out my own dawn effect, as haven't actually done as such to 'let it run wild' for a long while!
I only need 4-5 hours sleep and then I wake up and cant get back to sleep. So I woke up at 7am and measured my bg to be at 4.0.
During the night I can see on my cgm tracker that it went from 5.6 around 2am when I went to bed and then a little dip down to 4.3 within the following 2 hours. And then more or less flat-lining at 4.0 till I woke up at 7am.
I took my basal insulin right away as usual. Stayed in bed to read a bit. Bg stayed around 4.1.
Then I stood up. Walked the dog, got some great bread at the bakery to bring back. Back home, time now 8:30, Bg at 6.3.
Now sitting down reading online news and pages on this very forum. My bg continued the steady rise. Looking at the cgm graph, it was a stable rise from the moment I stood up.
Within 1 hour my bg went from 4.1 to 14.1 mmol/L.
Sorry, I interrupted this study when my bg went above 14 and took some fast acting.
I am certain it would have continued quite some higher, by judging the rapid ramp-up that bg curve had this morning.
But it just shows how crazy our bg can go up, despite taking our basal as usual and despite not eating anything.
Pure Dawn Effect. People without diabetes also gets this, as the liver dumps glucose to support the body, but their pancreas releases insulin to support it also to maintain ideal bg levels. We diabetics needs to do this manually, as we no longer have a working pancreas running on auto-pilot.
Oh, and just to throw in some extra spice into life.
As it is with all human nature, its all a gamble. Not all diabetics that experience this dawn phenomenon. Its actually only around 40-60% according to some studies. And its not all days you will have them, despite you have had them previously.
So as they said in the tv police serie: "Good luck and be careful out there!"
Happy Easter everybody !
Your 'reality now' with Lantus 16 and NovoRapid 42 = 58 units per day is more expected to be within reason. (all are individually different though, so there is no right or wrong here). But your split of such a low proportion being basal slow acting versus more than the double volume in bolus does not appear correct.
Thank you for sharing your vivid description of your bodily functions!I ... X! Y! and Z!, like usual.
Its usually always more than just 'one thing'. Its a combination of a lot of things. And you mention most of them already in your intro to your last post here....
Like we've already discussed, maybe it's a combination of various things - resistance, injection sites, dawn phenomenon, extra weight, age, stress, fitness levels etc. but ........ why so sudden (Mar / Apr 2016, and why SOOOO utterly radical, and why does it occasionally feel like I'm not even Diabetic - for several hours, BG just stays stable even if I eat extra things (you would agree it's not as if my Lantus is so high, that I can fit extra Carbs in !)
My HbA1c scores have always been in the acceptable ranges - not perfect (and looking at some of your scores here, I'm definitely thinking - roll on LIBRE), but they were always acceptable, and without Libre.
And particularly while 'this' has been going on for 2 years, they've still been acceptable at Clinic.
...
So, if this morning wasn't typical for you @Celsus , what would your normal routine be ? You don't sound as if this rise to 14 happens every day, so what is a typical balance of Insulin / Food / Exercise for you that would normally avoid this Dawn rise, and keep your CGM stable ?
...
But this is way more than DAWN. There's something else.
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