Carbohydrates de mystified

Hana,
On the Bad Sciece forum, they have an acronym which rather rudely asks people who make statements to back them up with evidence. You suggest that you have searched for that evidence but can't find it .I suggest that you must be rather selective in your searches. In the US, the UK, where I live in France and at the level of the WHO there are public reports describing how and why guidelines have been devised, complete with the evidence used. Do you really think that scientists who advise theseauthorities from the World Health Organisation downwards have been all been stupid and neglectful, missed something, influenced by big business or at worse are dishonest? Perhaps they haven't actually examined the evidence?

As to our 'natural' diet. Perhaps you can answer this question.Why on earth would we have a gene for an enzyme to digest starch if for some reason it would be bad for us to do so?
Salivary amylase gene in evolution
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2377015/
And an alternative theory of early diet to yours.
Wrangham (multiple papers) If you have any interest you can look him up.


As Catherine says most people want to know what works for them and probably many have turned off by now.
Going back to the very first poster from Portugal, he was prescribed a certain number of carbs.. He seems to have had similar dietary advice that I have had ie an individualised, well balanced diet with a prescribed number of carbs. This is the norm here and interestingly I find none of this type of discussion on French forums, indeed there is more often a discussion about how to better balance a diet.
Catherine has good control, so do I . She has T2, I have T1, she is active, I run and walk and manage a large garden. What we do works for us. Both of us seem to be of normal weight and as far I'm concerned live a healthy lifestyle with no necessity to demonise one of the three food groups.
.
For a good general view of what a balanced diet is, backed with evidence
http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/nutritionsource/what-should-you-eat/

hanadr said:

Sorry folks! :wink:
Protein and carb release 4 Calories per gram. Fats release 9 Calories per gram.
Carbs are released Fast and fats take longer.
There is NO dietary requireement for carbs and no such thing as a "Well balanced diet" Tha idea comes from the Food pyramid first invented in the USA and based on guesswork NOT SCIENCE.
We've been indoctrinated for so long that many people take this idea as gospel. Try searching out the evidence. I've been hunting it for years and failed to find anything.
I can say from my own experiences as a scientist, that we don't have a mechanism for digesting raw starches. Since cooking only evolved about 10,000 years ago, we obviously didn't evolve eating starch.
Hana

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Hana, taken from Catherine's link:

''The popular image may be of Stone Age People gnawing on a chunk of meat, but new research indicates their diet may have been more balanced after all.''

So, it would appear our stone-age ancestors did eat starches after all! :shock: Oh dear! :roll:

Nigel

Having just re read this thread I am starting to get bored, I can feel myself switching off and I feel sleepy.

I'm guessing that will be the effect of the carbs I ate for breakfast then :roll: :lol:

Patch said:

howardjohn said:

We cant exist on just fat and protein

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Why not? There are plemty of vegetable that are low in sugar/carbs (Brocolli, Cauliflower, Spinach - anything Green is AWESOME).

Try thinking ouside of the box a little. Experiment.

Gadge said:

Do you not need a certain amount of Carbs to convert to energy, otherwise wouldn’t you be drowsy throughout the day?

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There is no evidence that we need ANY carbs at all. But you're right - sandwiches/wraps, etc... ARE convenient. (But then so are pies & pasties! :wink: )

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"pies & pasties"? High in carbs and high in fat, isn't that according to low-carb followers a deadly mixture? If it's ok to eat "pies & pasties" then why is it not ok to eat a sausage sandwich or is it a case of bread is not good for you but pastries are?

noblehead said:

hanadr said:

Sorry folks! :wink:
Protein and carb release 4 Calories per gram. Fats release 9 Calories per gram.
Carbs are released Fast and fats take longer.
There is NO dietary requireement for carbs and no such thing as a "Well balanced diet" Tha idea comes from the Food pyramid first invented in the USA and based on guesswork NOT SCIENCE.
We've been indoctrinated for so long that many people take this idea as gospel. Try searching out the evidence. I've been hunting it for years and failed to find anything.
I can say from my own experiences as a scientist, that we don't have a mechanism for digesting raw starches. Since cooking only evolved about 10,000 years ago, we obviously didn't evolve eating starch.
Hana

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Hana, taken from Catherine's link:

''The popular image may be of Stone Age People gnawing on a chunk of meat, but new research indicates their diet may have been more balanced after all.''

So, it would appear our stone-age ancestors did eat starches after all! :shock: Oh dear! :roll:

Nigel

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A friend of mine tried to tell me the same re the stone age people but when I asked him what their average life span was he quickly changed the subject to football knowing full well that I hate the game and have no idea about it....suppose he wanted to have confirmation that he knew something that I didn't. :lol:

hanadr said:

N
It is therefore perfectly possible to remain healthy on a carb free diet for at least a year.

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So what happens after a year than, do you go back to a higher carb diet because it is not safe to stay carb free for longer than a year?

clearviews said:

I used the example of seminars where I have observed people who have partaken of a carby interlude nod off only as an example of a captive audience. No, they don't need the carbs to sit and listen, however they fall asleep or doze and I don't. That is the difference. They might miss the important bits while they are asleep, I don't as I am not asleep and don't get drowsy from a low carb lunch.

I also indicated that while performing under extreme conditions where one's life depends having enough energy to function, the low carb option does not place me at a disadvantage alongside a person fuelled primarily on carbs. My energy levels are not dimished on a low carb lifestyle. It is a misconception that we NEED carbs to perform in a demanding occupation.
Alison

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On avarage I eat about 120 carbs a day but I have never ever in my life have fallen asleep or dozed off anywhere, not even in a cinema or in front of the TV but I have seen people on (sort of) low carb diets to loose weight who changed in personality and became very angry and agitated ready to blow up in ones face for the simplest and most idiotic reasons.

That everyone on a high carb diet falls asleep or dozes off is simply a myth that as far as I am concerned was "created" by someone who has something against carbs in general. I wished it was true though, I really could do with some sleep.

So what happens after a year than, do you go back to a higher carb diet because it is not safe to stay carb free for longer than a year?

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Well that brings up an interesting story. The original 'research' had just 2 subjects.
One of them, was a 38 year old man. During the year he had 2 mild attacks of pharyngitis. He completed the year on Jan 24 1926. He then ate a mixed but very high fat diet. Three weeks later, on the 13th of Feb he again developed pharynigtis . On the 15th he took 100g of glucose for a tolerance test. By next morning he had blood in his sputum and a temp of 40. He was diagnosed with pneumonia.
His treatment in hospital was 'Dr Feltons concentrated polyvalent pneumococcus serum' and a diet of fluids' rich in carbohydrates' : :!: :lol:
:wink: I don't doubt some will blame the glucose, but it seems to me that he was already developing the infection before he took it. His doctors didn't seem to hesitate in using carbs to help fuel his recovery.

When i eat lots of carbs and not enough insulin, i can feel drowsy.

When I match my insulin intake exactly to my carbs so that they are metabolised as pretty **** close to what a normal person does, i do not feel drowsy.

I therefore conclude that it's not the carbs making me feel drowsy, but the unmetabolised carbs which are raising my blood sugars to unhealthy levels.

I think it doesn't much matter whether you are having a low carb diet, or a diet higher in carbs but with appropriate insulin/medication.

For me it all about whether the blood sugars stay within range, of course if I have a high blood sugar I am not going to feel good.

There are two ways to manage diabetes

a) reduce carb intake, particularly high GI ones
b) take insulin/medication in the right amounts to 'deal' with excess carbs.

Both approaches work if done correctly, I know because i have tried them both.

phoenix said:

So what happens after a year than, do you go back to a higher carb diet because it is not safe to stay carb free for longer than a year?

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Well that brings up an interesting story. The original 'research' had just 2 subjects.
One of them, was a 38 year old man. During the year he had 2 mild attacks of pharyngitis. He completed the year on Jan 24 1926. He then ate a mixed but very high fat diet. Three weeks later, on the 13th of Feb he again developed pharynigtis . On the 15th he took 100g of glucose for a tolerance test. By next morning he had blood in his sputum and a temp of 40. He was diagnosed with pneumonia.
His treatment in hospital was 'Dr Feltons concentrated polyvalent pneumococcus serum' and a diet of fluids' rich in carbohydrates' : :!: :lol:
:wink: I don't doubt some will blame the glucose, but it seems to me that he was already developing the infection before he took it. His doctors didn't seem to hesitate in using carbs to help fuel his recovery.

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When I was a kid I used to love listening to old stories from my grandma & parents. I especially loved the old soldier stories with all it's glories and funny side of a soldiers life but your story above has got to be one of the funniest I have heard...hmmmm..2 subjects 96 years ago when medicine was way way behind the present technology (I think?) is still fooling people into believing that the "research" from that time is still valid and can be taken seriously. (hmmm I just read that back, must be the longest sentence I've ever written LOL).

Thanx for that phoenix, you put a smile on my face, especially the last sentence.

the_anticarb said:

When i eat lots of carbs and not enough insulin, i can feel drowsy.

When I match my insulin intake exactly to my carbs so that they are metabolised as pretty **** close to what a normal person does, i do not feel drowsy.

I therefore conclude that it's not the carbs making me feel drowsy, but the unmetabolised carbs which are raising my blood sugars to unhealthy levels.

I think it doesn't much matter whether you are having a low carb diet, or a diet higher in carbs but with appropriate insulin/medication.

For me it all about whether the blood sugars stay within range, of course if I have a high blood sugar I am not going to feel good.

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What I conclude is that if anyone feels sleepy or drowsy is because a) they do not take enough medication if they are diabetics, b) eat carbs in excess and c) do not exercise. And if they are not diabetics it is more than likely that they eat enough food, not only too much carbs, that their body can not metabolise but too much of everything as seems to be the case nowadays. Some people just don't know when they've had enough and eat and eat and eat, pile on the stones, become ill through overweight and work their pancreas to a point where it says "I can't any more" and either reduces it's insulin production or stops completely. But the funny thing is that they then blame the carbs for their illness.

Of course not everyone is like that, there are enough "skinny" people who also become diabetics but that is probably due to some sort of genetic disorder and not because they eat too much.

There are two ways to manage diabetes

a) reduce carb intake, particularly high GI ones
b) take insulin/medication in the right amounts to 'deal' with excess carbs.

Both approaches work if done correctly, I know because i have tried them both.

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There is a third way, exercise helps to keep BG down and also less medication, that is of course if one is fit enough to exercise and is not restricted by some other underlying problem/s.

Just 3 points
1] Infections are caused by organisms which enter the body from outside and are not caused by diet.
2] there is a classic "experiment" performed in secondary schools all over. It involves digesting starch to produce glucose The progress of the demonstration is tracked.
To perform the "experiment", you make up a starch colloid[starch is insoluble in water] and add salivary amylase to it.Nowadays because of health and safety rules, you have to use a plant derived enzyme[usually diastase] or a synthetic. We used to use spit. A small sample is extracted from the test-tube and tested for starch and glucose at regular intervals. In theory, you observe the starch disappearing and glucose taking over. the problem comes if you [or the lab tech] forgets to boil the starch to disrupt the tertiary molecular structure. If you forget, it DOES NOT WORK, because the enzyme cannot break down the starch.
Salivary amylase does not digest raw starch.
3] We all eat a considerable amount of indigestible matter. We call it dietary fibre. Dietary fibre consists of cellulose, which is chemically a cabohydrate in that is is made up od carbon, hydrogen and oxygen atoms in the correct ratio and bond configuration.
Hana

Oh dear!

Has anybody checked the link given by the OP, full of advertising and the Nutrition daily calcuator, only seems to calculate one figure of 130g :lol:


I thought it a bit suspect when mine, hubby’s and my daughters daily carb requirements work out at 130g, but total suspicions completely confirmed that this wasn’t nothing more than a slimmer/advertising portal when even my German Shepherd need 130g of carbs per day...

Has to Hana test tube theory it really proves very little really, as well don’t forget that humans first chew their food as they eat, then the stomach acid helps to break it down so the enzymes can do their work!!!

A bit similar to saying because one can find whole undigested sweet corn in human waste that aids the theory even more, which it doesn’t as it is always whole sweet corn which has missed the chewing process and swallowed who, the bits we munched does digest as normal with the exception of the cellulose bits of it!

That 130g of carb per day comes from someone's calculation of how m7uch carb is tthe minimum for brain function. Sorry I don't have the reference. It totally disregards gluconeogenesis
Hana

To put certain members mind at rest - yes, the site concerned was checked out as usual. As for advertising on there, many sites nowadays unfortunately have adverts on them. Discretion was used to allow it as it was thought it might stimulate some discussion.

Seems to have been the right choice !