Cheese filled bacon mug

borofergie said:

Sid Bonkers said:

borofergie said:

Of course you should trust your cardiologist, I'd just like you to be aware of the total lack of scientific evidence that underlies his advice that your should eat a diet "full of healthy wholegrains" and free of "saturated fat".

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More of the usual propaganda Stephen, that is not the advice I get from my cardiologist at all, no one has ever told me to "eat a diet "full of healthy wholegrains" and free of "saturated fat" " its never happened except apparently in your imagination, I think I am in a better position to know what I have been told by my cardiologist than you.

As fore mentioning Taubes, its all interlinked, you chose to accept what a few mainly unqualified people say is the truth, I chose to believe what my doctor, cardiologist and an overwhelming percentage of the medical profession say.

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Unqualified guys like Ron Krauss, Chris Kresser and Stephan Guyenet? Do you think they are more qualified or less qualified to talk about this than your cardiologist?

I present meta-studies in peer reviewed journals, interviews with leading researchers and scientific literature reviews. You present an anecdote about your cardiologist. And apparently I'm the one dealing in "propaganda".

If you have any science to back up your opinion then please share it with us.

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Boro ... be careful you don't hurt your head on that brick wall. Some people are under the illusion that anyone who has a profession ending with 'ist' is somehow automatically intelligent, has critical thinking abilities, knows it all and has no need for further study and the rest of us plebs ... well we should just shut up and accept whatever we're told, even though our own minds and bodies tell us different. IMO a 'profession' is the surest way to a narrow or even closed mind and I'm glad I didn't limit mine even if I've had to forego the 'respect' of a lot of sheep. :roll:

Personally I would say that Guyenet(a neurobiologist), Kressner (an naturopath) have no qualifications in that particular speciality. They are both interesting bloggers and Guyanet works with lipidologists but nether are expert.

Krauss is an expert lipidologist and a doctor, though doesn''t seem to have had a lot of clinical experience,
None of them of course is privy to Sid's history, his cardiologist is.

Krauss is in favour of a lower carb diet but he also says that one reason for that is that risk factors have changed .

Over the last fifty years, we’ve had a transformation in the spectrum of risk factors for heart disease. People years ago were eating lots of animal fats and getting heart disease because of high cholesterol. Those people weren’t necessarily as overweight as we are now. There wasn’t as much diabetes.

Over time, the ability to control blood cholesterol by moderating fat intake and using statin drugs, which has revolutionized the control of cholesterol in this country, that has led to cholesterol itself and LDL levels themselves to be a less severe problem than they used to be, particularly in comparison to what’s happened in relationship to obesity, insulin resistance, metabolic disorders of the type that we’re talking about associated with sedentary lifestyles and overweight and carb intake

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(thought bubble, what would his advice be to someone of normal weight who has reduced their insulin resistance? What if their cholesterol was high?)

He talks about sat fat in moderation:

we’ve come to a consensus among my own community of researchers and even the national dairy council is we should be thinking about moderation about saturated fats and not avoid it all together

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Does anyone suggest avoiding it altogether ? I would only think it would be possible on a vegan diet that also avoided oils
,

The bottom line is that our current dietary recommendations, in terms of numbers put the desirable amount of saturated fat in the diet around 10 percent or so are not unreasonable. Some people can certainly get away with more, and some people need less.

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phoenix said:

None of them of course is privy to Sid's history, his cardiologist is.

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No one is trying to diagnose Sid or give him specific medical advice! The discussion has been a general one about sat fat/no sat fat. Your statement is blindingly obvious, but irrelevant.

phoenix said:

Over time, the ability to control blood cholesterol by moderating fat intake and using statin drugs, which has revolutionized the control of cholesterol in this country, that has led to cholesterol itself and LDL levels themselves to be a less severe problem than they used to be

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But isn't that the point? I don't actually accept that increased fat consumption=increased cholesterol, because the opposite happened with me, but even if it did, the statement you quoted shows that I could if I wanted control higher cholesterol with statins, but I HAVE to control BGs by eating less carbs (and thus more fats (or protein)) unless I want to end up on drugs I choose not to take, or even insulin. Or even a pump if i'm lucky? None sound right for me, so I stick to the lower carbs, and the increased fat

Grazer, at the moment, you are doing well, Fine . Long may that be the case.

Stephen said

Unqualified guys like Ron Krauss, Chris Kresser and Stephan Guyenet? Do you think they are more qualified or less qualified to talk about this than your cardiologist

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My answer was that 2 out of the 3 weren't and that Sid's cardiologist knows him.
I then went on to quote some of Krauss's stated opinions.
That is what discussion is about.
The prevention of CVD is not just a matter for people with T2. It is a threat to all of us with diabetes.


What an insulin pump has to do with lipids I haven't the foggiest. Or do you think the subject of lipids is unimportant to someone with a pump. On diagnosis I had high cholesterol, too much plaque in my arteries, a couple of small Xanthomas on my eyelids and one on my calf(fortunately all now gone and the plaque reduced)
Presumably I should have just ignored i the problem and left it to the insulin to sort out because it's obviously my secret weapon. I certainly had no choice in the matter of whether I should take it or not.

phoenix said:

(thought bubble, what would his advice be to someone of normal weight who has reduced their insulin resistance? What if their cholesterol was high?)

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From a T2 perspective it depends on how much Beta cell damage has occurred. In my case I have reduced to normal weight and my admittedly cheap electronic scales tell me my body fat content is also approaching "normal" so I would guess I'm approaching towards the best case for reducing insulin resistance.

Yet my Beta cell damage is such that while I can certainly process a slightly higher carb diet than I could a few months ago my tolerance to certain high GI foods is still pretty rubbish i.e my first insulin response mechanism is screwed and I have to rely on my second phase response.

Luckily my body doesn't seem to mind the increased saturated fats that are in my diet now as my cholesterol levels have fallen since the change in regimes from HCLF to LCHF. I don't claim that is going to be the case for everyone but even if its not then as Grazer says I think I would rather be a normal weight, low diabetic meds, low insulin resistance, non diabetic person hBA1c person with a possibly raised cholesterol level than a normal weight, high diabetic meds, low insulin resistance, high hBA1c person with a normal cholesterol level.

The dangers of having a run away high hBA1c regardless of weight are very well documented , the dangers of having a raised cholesterol level if you are "healthy" in most other respects is far less clear. The failed LookAhead trail is showing that kind of outcome as well. Despite the intensive low fat, high carb, high exercise group both losing weight and seeing improvements in cholesterol levels they did no better than the control group in terms of CVD outcomes. The thing that didn't change that much over the two groups was hBA1c with both groups still running well above the target 6.5%. To me that suggests that hBA1c could be the key factor not cholesterol.

Some researchers say we need some 'bad' LDL as we get older to ensure brain function amongst other things, so I'm still not convinced about the automatic statin prescribing either. My Mum was really bad on them, hardly being able to walk and real brain fog after about 5 years, now a few years after stopping them she is far better and her levels haven't risen either.

So good arguments on differing medical approaches can be found here (they now do a monthly magazine which makes interesting reading and challenges many NHS views - may be a good springboard for the NHS dietary advice challenges).

http://www.wddty.com/bad-ldl-cholestero ... alive.html

Regards
Angie

I seem to recall Dr Bernstein speaking about having Xanthomas on his eyelids but as I recall his didn't go away, even after he normalised both his BG and his cholesterol levels eating a very low carb diet and using minimal insulin. He also claims to have a lipid profile most people half his age would envy.

Volek and Phinney talk about similar lipid profile improvements in low carb studies.

Likewise Drs Bowden and Sinatra in the new book "The Cholesterol Myth".

All medical doctors. It's not just fringe bloggers saying this stuff.

I don't intend to show photos but they have gone I hated them but didn't know what they were until the cardiologist pointed them out when I was in hospital.

You're very lucky

I vaguely recall Dr Bernstein taking off his glasses and trying to show the camera. I think those and his foot issues were about the only complications he didn't manage to clear up by BG control. Pretty amazing really, considering the number of years he'd been without control.

phoenix said:

Presumably I should have just ignored i the problem and left it to the insulin to sort out because it's obviously my secret weapon.

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Didn't suggest that at all. Never referred to you. What I said was that I'd rather not worry about the "maybe's"of fat, and concentrate on BG control through lowering carbs instead, as MY only alternative to lower carbs is stronger meds and, ultimately maybe, insulin. At least, that's what all the HCPs tell us will happen. Probably right on their low fat diet recommendation