• Guest - w'd love to know what you think about the forum! Take the 2025 Survey »

Complications

Bluetit1802 said:
Wrong about LCHF being a relatively new innovation. It was the only treatment available to diabetics as long ago as the 1800s. There have been several threads about this, with quotes from books written at the time. I have one published in 1936

Cookery and Household Management
Printed 1936

Diabetes

Those suffering from this ailment require carefully to avoid all foods containing sugar and starch. The following Must be avoided:

Milk, sugar, flour, cornflour, oatmeal, rice, sago, macaroni, the various pulse foods, fruits containing a high percentage of sugar, potatoes, beets, carrots, peas, parsnips, broad beans, spanish onions.

The following are allowed:

meat, soups, fish, poultry, game and meat of all kinds. Also eggs, butter, cream, cheese, certain vegetables. Light dry wines. Weak unsweetened spirits. Tea, coffee and cocoa which may be sweetened with saccharine. There may be plentiful use of butter, cream, fat and oils if the digestion will allow.
Click to expand...
So if that was recommendation back then why did doctors stop telling people that was the best way to control diabetes there must have been a reason
 
Pinkorchid said:
How do you define controlled ?
Click to expand...

That was exactly my point.

Pinkorchid said:
So if that was recommendation back then why did doctors stop telling people that was the best way to control diabetes there must have been a reason
Click to expand...

Because the era of Low fat high carb began, with lots of popular (and food industry) support. And in the 35 years since, diabetes rates have both skyrocketed not only in adults but also in children.
 
Pinkorchid said:
So if that was recommendation back then why did doctors stop telling people that was the best way to control diabetes there must have been a reason
Click to expand...
They got it wrong. They decided plying people with drugs and letting them eat processed carbs was a good idea. Why do you think doctors are infallible?
 
Pinkorchid said:
So if that was recommendation back then why did doctors stop telling people that was the best way to control diabetes there must have been a reason
Click to expand...
I'm afraid that we have those pesky dietary recommendations and Ancel Keys to thanks for that. When sat fat was demonised all prior knowledge was derided even though it had worked... The idiocy of flawed science.
 
@Pinkorchid You seem to think that we are all LCHF on this site. I have been for a while but do not lose weight on it anymore so am reverting to plant based HCLF. I still want/expect to see excellent BG control though.
 
The fact is that the science behind a low-fat diet is flawed. The advice given to diabetics to eat more carbs is flawed. The NHS's expectation that people will, by and large, fail to manage their disease themselves is, sadly, entirely correct. This is because people will follow the first two pieces of flawed advice and never realise that there are other ways.

And yes, lots of other ways. I'd say there are as many different approaches and specific diets and ways of managing diabetes as there are people posting on this forum as a whole. We all do it differently; we all worked it out. The umbrella term for what a lot of people are doing is LCHF, but it's a broad bracket that includes differing opinions on testing (and devices), exercise, food diaries, fasting, routines, foods, target food intake totals and ketosis - to name but a few factors I've seen discussed.

The NHS cannot say to people "Go figure it out". The NHS can only say "Do this specific thing." That the advice given to people comes from a foundation built upon 2 incorrect assumptions is something we can work with. The psychology of other diabetics, by and large, is not (though this forum stands in direct contradiction of that statement, I know!)
 
Pinkorchid said:
But how do you know thousands do not control their diabetes that's a bit presumptuous are you saying only those who follow LCHF can control their diabetes. Diabetes has been around for a very long time long before low carbs was ever thought about as a diet for weight loss let alone diabetes how did they control it or do you think it was impossible
Click to expand...

No carbs for a diabetic pre Banting and Best and no type 1 or 2 either. Before Banting and Best discovered Insulin, opium was used, also suphuric acid to help patients, but so many didn't survive, it was basically a death sentence.
I have my mum's Nurses handbook, from about 1910, which is fascinating and full of how to treat and care for a person with diabetes. I wrote about it a few months ago.
 
zand said:
@Pinkorchid You seem to think that we are all LCHF on this site. I have been for a while but do not lose weight on it anymore so am reverting to plant based HCLF. I still want/expect to see excellent BG control though.
Click to expand...
No I don't I know that not everyone is LCHF just referring to the ones who are. Myself I do more moderate carb and lower fat but LCHF it is rather regarded as the Holy Grail here. I hope your way HCLF works for you if it does perhaps you could say so here because many people who do not do LCHF are very reluctant to say so as some have had some nasty remarks made to them We need more to tell us how they manage their diabetes if it is not LCHF
 
Last edited:
Pinkorchid said:
LCHF it is rather regarded as the Holy Grail here
Click to expand...

Possibly because quite a few of us have had great results when doing it? That is not saying it is the only way but because it worked so well for me I like to recommend that others try it especially when they first come here seeking advice. There is also a significant (although unfortunately still a minority) of informed HCP's who advocate it too.
 
zand said:
They got it wrong. They decided plying people with drugs and letting them eat processed carbs was a good idea. Why do you think doctors are infallible?
Click to expand...
No one is infallible even doctors can make mistakes but you would not expect it to be the whole medical profession.
 
bulkbiker said:
And thousands don't do it at all..often those following their doctor's and NICE guidelines I too would love to know what "controlled" meant exactly. HbA1c of ?
Click to expand...

I agree @bulkbiker. At a recent Dr's appointment I was told that as long as I was below 60 HBA1C they would be happy with that. They might call that controlled but I wouldn't.
 
Pinkorchid said:
But how do you know thousands do not control their diabetes that's a bit presumptuous are you saying only those who follow LCHF can control their diabetes. Diabetes has been around for a very long time long before low carbs was ever thought about as a diet for weight loss let alone diabetes how did they control it or do you think it was impossible
Click to expand...
No one on this thread has stated or implied that only those who follow LCHF can control their diabetes. I am not sure where you are getting this idea from. It has been stressed several times that there are many ways to control our sugars.
 
It seems to have gone a bit off topic and reverted to a LCHF thread.

I think the point well made earlier is we don't know whether his BG was controlled or not and for all we know he didn't eat any carbs.
And it is true isn't it that everyone is different after all the clear message here is to test what impact a single food has on you - rather than post a long list of foods and say "peas 7oz +.1mmol, green beans 7oz +.2mmol". Given that, one assumes that suffering from any form of complication may also be person specific and associated no doubt with how much damage before control was started.

Add to that age, which impacts people differently - and I would say it is impossible to say whether complications might be avoided through good control now. (which was the first question in the thread I think?)

Yet what is for sure is that if bad BG is left to run - then you will see complications.
How you achieve good control seems to be, funny enough, person specific.
 
Pinkorchid said:
Did anyone see the latest episode of GP's Behind Closed Doors yesterday. There was a diabetic man having a dressing put on his foot as he had recently had a toe removed it was the third one to be removed. The nurse said his diabetes is controlled but he gets infections that will not heal and could lead to him having his foot removed. It seems even with controlled diabetes some people are still more predisposed to complications than others
Click to expand...
Did she know what she was talking about?
 
zand said:
I think what the doctors call controlled is very different to what many of us here call controlled. We don't all follow LCHF here either, as you say there are different ways of doing it, what is important is that we aim to have non-diabetic numbers. The NHS don't seem to aim for or expect that.
Click to expand...
They certainly do not and that is a scandal.
 
Bluetit1802 said:
Controlled to medics is not the same as controlled to us here on the forum. Controlled to medics is if the person keeps to his personal target as agreed with his doctors/nurse, and this could be an HbA1c in the 50s.

Without knowing any details of this man's medication and his history we cannot say if he was controlled or not. Someone who began the journey on diet only, progressed to Metformin, progressed to Gliclazide, then Forxiga, Januvia, and any of the other strong drugs, often in large doses and multiple medications, and then to insulin isn't seeing an improvement. His disease is getting worse, not better, even if he does return levels that are better than before and apparently under control. The damage may have already been done.
Click to expand...
Crucial point. More medication but all the time the diabetes I'd getting worse
 
serenity648 said:
My diabetic nurse considered numbers under 75 to mean well controlled in type 2's and a hbaic of less than 60 to mean borderline diabetic. I am going to ask further about her definitions next time i see her.

one of my friends father, who is 70 years old and been type 2 for only 10 years, is now losing his sight but is considered by her to be well controlled even though his hbaic was 78 last time he went. She just upped his insulin : (
Click to expand...
Treatment is appalling.
 
Back
Top