Dawn Phenomenon - good or bad?

I will watch this thread with interest. My bg is rarely under low 6s on waking no matter what I do. I recently started testing before bed and am usually low 5s before bed so is a 1-1.5 rise such a big deal? Perhaps it doesn't even qualify as a dump. Anyone know? Maybe I should stop tutting loudly at my morning readings and be grateful my liver is making sure I don't go too low. Without a continuous meter I will not know fully what is going on in the night.

You can spend your life chasing numbers.

I wake up, I get up, I get on with my day.
Or I wake up, I go back to sleep, I wake up again.
Either way, I'll get two totally different readings.
I could try to get them lower, by getting up and eating, rather than sleeping again, but I really don't want to obsess with knowing my liver's doing what it's supposed to, and raising my blood sugar so I feel awake when I get up.
I've also seen posters that test in bed, to beat the dump. Others that make it to the bathroom, then test to beat the dump. Again, I can't see the point in testing when you know it's good. I test at random, or when I think I'll see a spike.

I've taken to eating a pot of Greek yogurt at bedtime to try and stop liver dumps and seems to be working ... and I'm also finding that I'm sleeping a lot better. Don't know if it was linked, but I always tended to wake between 4 and 4.30 - now I'm sleeping until the alarm goes off or sleeping longer on weekends and feel better for it.

Yes I always see liver dump as a good thing too. When my fasting BGs are coming down I know my liver is winning the fight. At last I've found someone who thinks the way I do.

I see it as pretty neutral neither good nor bad, annoying to have one before breakfast and gym or after exercise when I need to eat real food.

Ok, if I'm on a lazy day and can get by on a liver dump, but those are few and far between.

I like to think my liver knows what it is doing. What it does is natural and meant to be. I don't interfere with it but let it do what it does. I always test at bed time and when I get up and have done for 2 years. In those 2 years there has been very little difference. I don't go up very much, average about 0.3mmol/l. Maybe it's because I sleep soundly apart from one loo visit. One thing that does happen, however, is that if I go to bed lower than usual, I go up more. If I am higher than normal at bedtime, I go down a bit. My liver prefers me to be at the level it puts me.

I've been wondering about this too. No matter what I do, I go to bed with bgs in the 7's only to find they are in the 9's to 10's until nearly lunchtime. I have tested during the night on occasion and find they are already raised by 3.00 am. With lots of exercise and small low carb meals they come down into the 6's after lunch - would like to be able to get them lower but feel that I have reached my limit as far as diet and exercise go.

I don't worry about DP either. I don't know if I get it or not as I only test once, soon after getting up. I'm happy if I'm less than 7 which I usually am. If that is with a liver dump even better, as it must mean that my underlying bs figures are even lower.

I do find the DP effect annoying, yet it is useful in clearing the glucose from my liver. I have already lost a substantial amount of excess fat, and I hope that when I am at a normal weight (my own fat threshold) the DP will reduce even further.

I found Dr Fung's explanation useful and encouraging:
https://intensivedietarymanagement.com/dawn-phenomenon-t2d-8/

DP is interesting. I dont know if I have it or if the medication I take is wearing off. I test before going to bed and its usually around 7 @10pm if I wake up around 3 I test again and its usually still around 7. Now if it is DP surely this would mean I am waking up and it should rise but it doesnt. If I test at 7am its rising by 8am its at 8.5 when I take medication it falls again but interestingly if I delay my medication it still falls. I do know if I take my night time medication later it doesnt rise as much. I have usually eaten my last food about 7.30pm

@Kyi I believe FBG test is supposed to be taken 10 hours after last food. And if you read the link posted by @Larissima to Dr Fung's article, he says the DP liver dump will be at around 4am, so testing at 3am might be before it starts.

Prem51 said:

@Kyi I believe FBG test is supposed to be taken 10 hours after last food. And if you read the link posted by @Larissima to Dr Fung's article, he says the DP liver dump will be at around 4am, so testing at 3am might be before it starts.

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Then this must be at any time you have missed food for 10 hrs surely. Calling it the DP gives the impression it is only at night. Where are I think it has more to do with fasting. People who do not have a 10hr fast so say their last meal is 10pm will never see the DP if they also have breakfast before 8am Conversely if you never eat until 3pm you will have a DP in the morning. I had a habit of eating around 3pm as the first meal of the day and my last meal was before 7.30 some times as early as 5pm day. Now I could eat for England during my eating phase of the day hence the weight gain but Im wondering if my high sugar results were the liver dumps for not eating, 4-5 hrs eating the wrong foods high carbohydrate/high calorie foods low fat foods Over loaded the liver and the glucose levels rose. Maybe this is the result of my high blood sugars, the dp dumping until the next food 18-20hrs later. I never get hungry and I never get thirsty. These are never a good composition for a healthy diet. I always under drink and over eat (no full feeling either). It is better now that I have cut out the carbohydrates and I eat more 3 times a day than 2 times a day (purely because I make myself eat at set times (and set calories) not because Im hungry) Ive never been a snack eater. My blood glucose reading are around 7-8 and Ive seen a 5.5 and a couple of 6s but those are rare and usually when I do not eat but have taken medication. One day I hope to get my eating controls better and my blood sugars stable between 5 and 6. I have a lot of weight to shift first I think before I see normal levels.

Kyi said:

One day I hope to get my eating controls better and my blood sugars stable between 5 and 6. I have a lot of weight to shift first I think before I see normal levels.

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This isn't necessarily true (but it may be). I find my BGs are stable when I low carb. Whilst I have lost a little weight I still have a lot more to lose, but I don't find this hampers my BGs as long as I low carb.

zand said:

This isn't necessarily true (but it may be). I find my BGs are stable when I low carb. Whilst I have lost a little weight I still have a lot more to lose, but I don't find this hampers my BGs as long as I low carb.

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I know one of my other factors is I suffer from depression and stress which are also known contributors.

Kyi said:

I know one of my other factors is I suffer from depression and stress which are also known contributors.

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Me too.

From Dr Fung's article:
"Just before awakening (around 4am), the body secretes higher levels of Growth Hormone, cortisol, glucagon and adrenalin. Together, these are called the counter-regulatory hormones. That is, they counter the blood sugar lowering effects of insulin, meaning that they raise blood sugars. The nocturnal surge of growth hormone is considered the primary cause of the DP."
So, it's not just a function of fasting. He also mentions that it (DP) occurs in up to 75% of T2D patients.

I'm working on lowering mine. I'm fine when I wake up (typically 4.44 - 5), but it just keeps creeping up until around noon - and it is is the creep I'm working on because it gives me a significant number of hours when my blood glucose is higher than I want it to be. The number of maladies associated with elevated blood glucose (even within the high normal range) trouble me - so I'm working on eliminating the last significant period when I have elevated blood glucose.

(I do test before I get out of bed - but that is because I am most likely to remember to test when I have a sustainable habit, not because I'm chasing a low. I am - for the time being - adding testing throughout the morning so that my meter average captures this period of above average readings.)

Larissima said:

From Dr Fung's article:
"Just before awakening (around 4am), the body secretes higher levels of Growth Hormone, cortisol, glucagon and adrenalin. Together, these are called the counter-regulatory hormones. That is, they counter the blood sugar lowering effects of insulin, meaning that they raise blood sugars. The nocturnal surge of growth hormone is considered the primary cause of the DP."
So, it's not just a function of fasting. He also mentions that it (DP) occurs in up to 75% of T2D patients.

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I find mine depends on the real time I wake up, rather than sort of set in stone at 4am (ish)