Diabetes ----- No More !!!!

Roytaylorjasonfunglover · May 6, 2015

noodlebonce said:
Hello,
I adopted a vegan diet last September and I'm doing very well on it. How are you getting on?
I went on it to try to relieve the peripheral neuropathy in my feet. In the process I steadily shed a stone and a half so far - it's now tailed off to about half a pound a week but still going in the right direction. The weight loss was by default though - it was my feet that were my main concern, as my Dad had the same thing before he was diagnosed with type2.
At the time of posting my foot problem has virtually disappeared - if it was 100% at its worst, it's now under 5%. It has worked for me.
My diet is low fat and includes totally unrefined carbs, so I have not been hungry with this approach.
I use Ceylon cinnamon on porridge, fruit etc. I'm not ruthlessly vegan inasmuch as I eat Quorn (has a bit of egg albumin in it), but I stick to it apart from that and am very happy with the results. Hope it works for you and Good luck.

Wow,this is so interesting, you are still losing weight? Are you inspired by Neal Barnard and those fellows, or did you just find the vegan diet on the internet by chance? I used to be a very diehard lowcarbfanatic, but now I have found that a diet high in unprocessed carbs, works just as well for me as high fat or high protein when it comes to weightloss. What are your favourite carb sources, how processed is the food you eat, and have you experienced a lot of backlash from people that claim that vega diets are really bad for diabetes and that lowcarb is the only way to go?

noodlebonce · May 6, 2015

Hi,
I'm still losing weight, yes. It kicked in about 5 weeks after beginning the switch and then went off steadily at 1-2lbs a week, though as I said it has now tailed off to about half a pound a week. I think I will get to a plateau at some point. I had to buy a lot of new clothes, but that was hardly a hardship! The foot progression charted about the same decrease over that time. The spiking pains which kept me awake in the small hours lessened and gradually faded into isolated events. Now they are a memory. Ditto the burning soles of the feet and sore feelings have virtually disappeared.
I'm very much aware of the work of Dr Barnard and Dr Dean Ornish (reversal of heart disease ) as my husband was part of the scientific research community before he retired and was particularly interested in the role of diet within disease. Consequently we had access to many interesting research papers both here and overseas.
There are certainly many approaches to take and the low-carb one is the route into which most people get directed. (my own father included)One of the reasons that Dr Barnard, himself now a vegan, has advocated a different route was the low rates of success his own father, a diabetes doctor, had with the traditional ADA approach. Peasant populations have had little diabetes with their largely vegetarian diets, but T2 diabetes rockets with the Western lifestyle. just look at Japan. It's a sound premise to use epidemiological methods on large population groups.

I'm in the UK, so I have adapted the nuts and bolts of Dr Barnard's approach to what I can buy here and to make my life as easy as I can. There are a lot of little tweaks that you can do to limit intake of fat, but we do need some good fats in the diet. I for instance spray extra virgin olive oil and now use a tiny amount whereas before I drizzled it everywhere. And because I don't eat dairy I can enjoy avocado and nuts without any bad effects.
I try not to buy processed foods if avoidable, but I admit to short-cuts in the kitchen - I'm not Nigella! So I will use some Lloyd Grossman Italian sauces and I use Alpro soya products which are very nice. I eat Rye and Pumpernickel bread for preference.
I like spicy foods so do a lot of Mexican chillis with veggie mince & beans and also Indian food with chick peas and lentils. I've also bought a tortilla press and make my own vegan corn tacos with Mesa flour - I'm getting quite good at that and was inspired by a book on Amazon 'Vegan Tacos'.
I haven't posted a lot on here, but I am interested in other's experiences with peripheral neuropathy and I do read forum posts on that. I did feel that my first post on the subject of the vegan diet drew a little hostility from some but anything that implies difference from the mainstream generally will do that. I hope others will give the vegan approach due consideration. Remember also that we're talking about a good, unprocessed and well-researched vegan diet - you could eat chip sandwiches every day and still call yourself a vegan!!
There are many experiences on this forum and I can only talk about mine and I'm the one that no longer has to get up in the middle of the night and hobble about on the cold bathroom tiles for relief. And my last full blood analysis at the hospital showed my Hba1C had declined to 41, so I'm now on a 6-monthly monitoring check to see if this trend continues. This diet appears to have clawed me back over the edge into a pre-diabetes classification.
I hope you too have continuing success.

Roytaylorjasonfunglover · May 7, 2015

noodlebonce said:
Hi,
I'm still losing weight, yes. It kicked in about 5 weeks after beginning the switch and then went off steadily at 1-2lbs a week, though as I said it has now tailed off to about half a pound a week. I think I will get to a plateau at some point. I had to buy a lot of new clothes, but that was hardly a hardship! The foot progression charted about the same decrease over that time. The spiking pains which kept me awake in the small hours lessened and gradually faded into isolated events. Now they are a memory. Ditto the burning soles of the feet and sore feelings have virtually disappeared.
I'm very much aware of the work of Dr Barnard and Dr Dean Ornish (reversal of heart disease ) as my husband was part of the scientific research community before he retired and was particularly interested in the role of diet within disease. Consequently we had access to many interesting research papers both here and overseas.
There are certainly many approaches to take and the low-carb one is the route into which most people get directed. (my own father included)One of the reasons that Dr Barnard, himself now a vegan, has advocated a different route was the low rates of success his own father, a diabetes doctor, had with the traditional ADA approach. Peasant populations have had little diabetes with their largely vegetarian diets, but T2 diabetes rockets with the Western lifestyle. just look at Japan. It's a sound premise to use epidemiological methods on large population groups.

I'm in the UK, so I have adapted the nuts and bolts of Dr Barnard's approach to what I can buy here and to make my life as easy as I can. There are a lot of little tweaks that you can do to limit intake of fat, but we do need some good fats in the diet. I for instance spray extra virgin olive oil and now use a tiny amount whereas before I drizzled it everywhere. And because I don't eat dairy I can enjoy avocado and nuts without any bad effects.
I try not to buy processed foods if avoidable, but I admit to short-cuts in the kitchen - I'm not Nigella! So I will use some Lloyd Grossman Italian sauces and I use Alpro soya products which are very nice. I eat Rye and Pumpernickel bread for preference.
I like spicy foods so do a lot of Mexican chillis with veggie mince & beans and also Indian food with chick peas and lentils. I've also bought a tortilla press and make my own vegan corn tacos with Mesa flour - I'm getting quite good at that and was inspired by a book on Amazon 'Vegan Tacos'.
I haven't posted a lot on here, but I am interested in other's experiences with peripheral neuropathy and I do read forum posts on that. I did feel that my first post on the subject of the vegan diet drew a little hostility from some but anything that implies difference from the mainstream generally will do that. I hope others will give the vegan approach due consideration. Remember also that we're talking about a good, unprocessed and well-researched vegan diet - you could eat chip sandwiches every day and still call yourself a vegan!!
There are many experiences on this forum and I can only talk about mine and I'm the one that no longer has to get up in the middle of the night and hobble about on the cold bathroom tiles for relief. And my last full blood analysis at the hospital showed my Hba1C had declined to 41, so I'm now on a 6-monthly monitoring check to see if this trend continues. This diet appears to have clawed me back over the edge into a pre-diabetes classification.
I hope you too have continuing success.

Whoa, that is a pretty amazing sucsessstory. You have lost substantial amounts of weight, and the peripheral neuropathy seems so much better, I am really happy for you. Cool that you went so in depth with the food habits, it seems really healthy with lots of emphaziz on the unprocessed foods, as you said a only chip sandwich diet is also a vegan diet lol, but thats clearly not the route you have taken. For me it is strange that so many people are against a vegan style in the diabetes community, it has clearly worked for a lot of people. For me it seems to fit with the theory that weghtloss is the most important thing for controlling diabetes, and if you eat a really high carb unprocessed carbs diet, you get really full, but are still in a calorie defecit. For instance, if I have a active day, I would need to eat over 5 kg of plain boiled potatoes just to maintain my calorie expenditure! Thats a hard ask.

Hope you continue to share your experience, it could be inspirational for many people. Personally I love meat, but I also think that those amongst us that are not to keen on it, vegetarians and vegans, should not be doomed to diabetes type 2 forever, and that lowcarb is not the only option. Lowcarb is often thrown around as the only alternative and I find that quite disheartening sometimes.

Btw what did your doctor say about your diet and the results? And what do lowcarbers say when you confront them with your results?

I am really happy for your sucsess and hope it continues, good luck on the monitoring, its a real piece of work you have laid down, and it would be cool if you updated and told about your on sucsess on this forum sometimes, it could proabably inspire many people who are vegans and vegetarians as well as people who want an option to lowcarb

bobrobert · May 7, 2015

For me it is strange that so many people are against a vegan style in the diabetes community, it has clearly worked for a lot of people

Quote from the above post

Too restrictive for most people. I personally wouldn't contemplate it because meat provides a lot of nutrients and can be nice to eat.

Roytaylorjasonfunglover · May 7, 2015

bobrobert said:
For me it is strange that so many people are against a vegan style in the diabetes community, it has clearly worked for a lot of people

Quote from the above post

Too restrictive for most people. I personally wouldn't contemplate it because meat provides a lot of nutrients and can be nice to eat.

Yes I agree, I am not against meat, but many would say that an extremely lowcarbohydrate diet would be difficult for them as well. But me and you like meat apparently so for us this is no problem, but for people that have issues about meat, ethical enviromental concerns and so forth, it should be held up as a feasible option. Many lowcarbers think carbs are poison since it turn into glucose, and I agree that is the case, but the weightloss is by far the most important thing. If somebody eat potatoes every day, but is in a defecit of 1600 calories every day, it is still better for your body, than being extremely overweight with type 2, and just maintaing your weight with lowcarb.

Also, diabetes is quite a an extreme disease, so if you ate vegan 8 weeks for instance, you could just say its another form of the 8 week newcastle diet, or a 8 week ketogenic lifestyle diet, a temporary descision to loose weight, and then create a diet afterwards that is more sustainable according to your own personal preferences , needs and goals. So for me lowcarb, lowfat vegan, vegetarian, newcastle, they all work, but they must cause substantial weightloss, and most importantly after the weightloss you need a sustainable lifestyle and diet.

Steam Engineer · May 7, 2015

Myself, I just went low carb and more than halved my meat intake, increased my veg intake and along with three hours a week at the gym, it works for me.
Also cut out sweet things, cakes, chocolates etc.
My weight is now down to 195 lbs and still going down about a pound every six or seven days.
To date since early october last year I have lost all together 56lbs (4 stones).

Daks · May 7, 2015

Well done fella, love reading about sucsess. Keep it up.

cath99 · May 7, 2015

well done to you takes alot of hard work to do that and determination well done x

littlelin · May 8, 2015

what brilliant success stories, so good to read about. well done to all, keep up the good work x

Brightside · May 8, 2015

Steam Engineer said:
Myself, I just went low carb and more than halved my meat intake, increased my veg intake and along with three hours a week at the gym, it works for me.
Also cut out sweet things, cakes, chocolates etc.
My weight is now down to 195 lbs and still going down about a pound every six or seven days.
To date since early october last year I have lost all together 56lbs (4 stones).

It just goes to show...we can beat this disease....I have just got my HBA1C result back...36.6mmol....well chuffed....have been LCHF since January....gym spinning and yoga 3x a week and of late 50-80km on the bicycle on the weekend....weight down from 125kg 19st in August 2013 to 102kg 16st the other day....
I firmly believe its a combination of no carbs (especially the sugar kind of carbs) and exercise.....off to Yorkshire today for a 350km cycle tour with a church group from Ealing...have managed to get my hands on a CGM (continous glucose monitor) which will I hope show some interesting observations.....currently it says 4.4mmol/l

noodlebonce · May 9, 2015

Roytaylorjasonfunglover said:
Whoa, that is a pretty amazing sucsessstory. You have lost substantial amounts of weight, and the peripheral neuropathy seems so much better, I am really happy for you. Cool that you went so in depth with the food habits, it seems really healthy with lots of emphaziz on the unprocessed foods, as you said a only chip sandwich diet is also a vegan diet lol, but thats clearly not the route you have taken. For me it is strange that so many people are against a vegan style in the diabetes community, it has clearly worked for a lot of people. For me it seems to fit with the theory that weghtloss is the most important thing for controlling diabetes, and if you eat a really high carb unprocessed carbs diet, you get really full, but are still in a calorie defecit. For instance, if I have a active day, I would need to eat over 5 kg of plain boiled potatoes just to maintain my calorie expenditure! Thats a hard ask.

Hope you continue to share your experience, it could be inspirational for many people. Personally I love meat, but I also think that those amongst us that are not to keen on it, vegetarians and vegans, should not be doomed to diabetes type 2 forever, and that lowcarb is not the only option. Lowcarb is often thrown around as the only alternative and I find that quite disheartening sometimes.

Btw what did your doctor say about your diet and the results? And what do lowcarbers say when you confront them with your results?

I am really happy for your sucsess and hope it continues, good luck on the monitoring, its a real piece of work you have laid down, and it would be cool if you updated and told about your on sucsess on this forum sometimes, it could proabably inspire many people who are vegans and vegetarians as well as people who want an option to lowcarb

Hello Roytaylorjasonfunglover (gosh that's a lot to type everytime!)

I've told my doctors about my lifestyle changes. My GP was totally uninterested (not surprised at that). I saw a neurologist at one point to discount other causes of the neuropathy. He was rather bemused as it was outside his speciality but the tests did discount all other causes that might be responsible. I've discovered that some with foot neuropathies have indicated that their symptoms were discounted because they did not yet have high enough HbA1c readings to be classified as T2's. This was certainly my initial experience and also that of my Dad whose foot problems had progressed past what I had to the numb stage before his numbers finally got him 'classified'. I asked one doctor if lower than 'acceptable' readings accompanied by foot neuropathy were indicative of a genetic predisposition which should be acted upon earlier. This suggestion was dismissed out of hand, yet since then I have discovered others in a similar situation. Maybe there is a sub-grouping of those predisposed in such a way that needs greater attention.
You ask about 'confronting' those on a low-carb diet. I'm not interested in confronting anybody. We are all, or should be, responsible for ourselves and if we undermine our health - smoking for instance- then that is ultimately our responsibility. The bill gets paid later on. Ditto with those stuffing down burgers and the like. But the comment that diabetes is a serious condition should I feel be repeated more often. The complications can be horrendous.

People think that the vegan diet is 'restrictive' but it really isn't. Many go on truly restrictive and bad 'diets' to lose weight. The idea is implanted that you deprive yourself and make yourself feel a bit martyred in order to get to a goal, after which many soon slide back to the previous position. That's why the diet industry is big business and the failure rates so high. They are all built on a totally unnatural premise. But if you embrace changes as a permanent life-enhancing pathway and just do it there is no more prevarication and it all quickly becomes second nature. I'm lucky in that I don't have a sweet tooth, so no sugar cravings for chocs or cream cakes. But I do like good bread and with the vegan approach I can have it. Yipee.

As I said, it's worthy of consideration in order to avoid future health problems. I also have a powerful visual incentive: my Dad sitting in his chair with his foot on a plastic tray, which the carers had put into position to stop the gloop from his rotting foot staining the carpet and the dreadful smell throughout the house from the gangrene. His last call to me: 'Please help me. I can't stand it any longer'.
We all have to die from something, but that's a future I'd like to avoid. Don't mean to upset anyone but all of us here are having to deal with issues caused by this condition and if the vegan approach can offer a way through for some well, to quote my daughter in the modern idiom 'It's a no-brainer'.
Good wishes to all for a bright future.

Arab Horse · May 9, 2015

Hi @noodlebonce, interesting post re neuropathy "without a high enough HbA1c". I was the opposite, very high BG and HbA1c but absolutely no symptoms; we are all so different.

Sorry to hear about your Dad, sounds horrendous. Can they not do something about it; even amputation sounds better than the status quo?

Roytaylorjasonfunglover · May 9, 2015

noodlebonce said:
Hello Roytaylorjasonfunglover (gosh that's a lot to type everytime!)

I've told my doctors about my lifestyle changes. My GP was totally uninterested (not surprised at that). I saw a neurologist at one point to discount other causes of the neuropathy. He was rather bemused as it was outside his speciality but the tests did discount all other causes that might be responsible. I've discovered that some with foot neuropathies have indicated that their symptoms were discounted because they did not yet have high enough HbA1c readings to be classified as T2's. This was certainly my initial experience and also that of my Dad whose foot problems had progressed past what I had to the numb stage before his numbers finally got him 'classified'. I asked one doctor if lower than 'acceptable' readings accompanied by foot neuropathy were indicative of a genetic predisposition which should be acted upon earlier. This suggestion was dismissed out of hand, yet since then I have discovered others in a similar situation. Maybe there is a sub-grouping of those predisposed in such a way that needs greater attention.
You ask about 'confronting' those on a low-carb diet. I'm not interested in confronting anybody. We are all, or should be, responsible for ourselves and if we undermine our health - smoking for instance- then that is ultimately our responsibility. The bill gets paid later on. Ditto with those stuffing down burgers and the like. But the comment that diabetes is a serious condition should I feel be repeated more often. The complications can be horrendous.

People think that the vegan diet is 'restrictive' but it really isn't. Many go on truly restrictive and bad 'diets' to lose weight. The idea is implanted that you deprive yourself and make yourself feel a bit martyred in order to get to a goal, after which many soon slide back to the previous position. That's why the diet industry is big business and the failure rates so high. They are all built on a totally unnatural premise. But if you embrace changes as a permanent life-enhancing pathway and just do it there is no more prevarication and it all quickly becomes second nature. I'm lucky in that I don't have a sweet tooth, so no sugar cravings for chocs or cream cakes. But I do like good bread and with the vegan approach I can have it. Yipee.

As I said, it's worthy of consideration in order to avoid future health problems. I also have a powerful visual incentive: my Dad sitting in his chair with his foot on a plastic tray, which the carers had put into position to stop the gloop from his rotting foot staining the carpet and the dreadful smell throughout the house from the gangrene. His last call to me: 'Please help me. I can't stand it any longer'.
We all have to die from something, but that's a future I'd like to avoid. Don't mean to upset anyone but all of us here are having to deal with issues caused by this condition and if the vegan approach can offer a way through for some well, to quote my daughter in the modern idiom 'It's a no-brainer'.
Good wishes to all for a bright future.

Thank you again for answering my questions, glad that it has worked out so well for you, and that you become a vegan inspiration for many others here. Sorry about your dad, but atleast you have managed yourself, despite a rather poor gp. Good luck, and hope you continue your sucess in the future!

Steam Engineer · Jun 4, 2015

Weight still on downward slope, now 193lbs, that's 58lbs lost altogether so far.

Steam Engineer · Sep 17, 2015

Weight steady now at 190lbs, 61lbs lost in total, due for my annual diabetes check shortly, had to put it off until I come back from my holiday, off to Apulia, Southern Italy next week, even picked a hotel with a gym so that I can continue with the exercise while away.

Living-by-the-beach · Sep 17, 2015

Steam Engineer said:
Weight steady now at 190lbs, 61lbs lost in total, due for my annual diabetes check shortly, had to put it off until I come back from my holiday, off to Apulia, Southern Italy next week, even picked a hotel with a gym so that I can continue with the exercise while away.

@Steam Engineer

I am really thrilled for you.For each of us its a personal struggle.
I am down to 193lbs or off 59lbs from worst levels. & Whilst my neuropathy has eased its not gone away nor has my elevated BGs. I am however, working on several fronts:.
1) Gynura Procumbens - (Also known as fake Ashitaba) leafy green plant
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/?term=Gynura+Procumbens
2) Angelica Keiskei (True Ashitaba) leafy green plant Tomorrow's Leaf
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/?term=Ashitaba
3) Kimchi Korean fermented Napa cabbage (addition of pro-biotics)
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/?term=Kimchi+diabetes
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3901348/ Traditional Korean Diet
4) Lower body workouts (cycling)
5) Upper body workouts (weight lifting)

Where I live is a real blessing I am 3 minute drive from a gym so after dinner I can do weights and then relax. In the mornings I am cycling to my local church. So I get 30 minutes of cycling in the morning and I like riding on the bike path in my avatar. I am unsure If I can get my T2DM into remission but I am going to continue trying..

Steam Engineer · Oct 22, 2015

Had my annual diabetes check carried out today, HbA1c 41 (5.9), cholesterol 4.1, blood pressure 128/ 88 .
Weight 190lbs. Told to keep up the good work and stick to diet and exercise.

Roytaylorjasonfunglover · Oct 22, 2015

Steam Engineer said:
Had my annual diabetes check carried out today, HbA1c 41 (5.9), cholesterol 4.1, blood pressure 128/ 88 .
Weight 190lbs. Told to keep up the good work and stick to diet and exercise.

Congratulations, incredible work! What kind of diet you on if you would like to share, but no forcing of course xD

Steam Engineer · Oct 22, 2015

LCH diet basically, but I suppose my secret is that I use a slow cooker to cook a mixture of veg in a tomato based sauce, varying the veg used, spices etc added to change flavour, then beans and pulses added for the last two hours cooking time. Cool it then divide into portions into the freezer.
Then basically my evening meal consists of a portion, with a piece of fish or meat.
Lunch time consists of a plate of soup, breakfast consists of cereal followed by wholemeal roll with cheese or scrambled egg (the only bread that I eat each day).
When I drink tea or coffee and feel peckish, I will have a couple of oatcakes with flora.
When I feel the need for a chocolate fix I will take a two finger dark chocolate kitkat instead (only 106 calories).

lindisfel · Oct 23, 2015

Hi Steamengineer,
Well done.
Please, how long did it take for the low carb diet to bring you below the prediabetic range?
regards
Derek
I am 14st 7lb and my bmi is c.24, hba1c 45

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